Mankind's Lost and Forgotten history. A Perspective

reply to post by MapMistress


The evolution of modern wheat and it's subsequent usage, is one of the best examples that we have of the role urbanisation has on a micro-climate and how that could have led to the dessication of the Middle-East, in my opinion. I don't know if you saw the recent BBC documentary 'Lost Cities' about the NASA infra-red images that are being used to map ancient Egypt....well, when they looked at the Sahara, what they found was hundreds and hundreds of small villages. These indicate that they were contemporary to the Nile culture. Which suggests to me that as the Nile culture became more successful, the villagers abandoned their land for the cities, partly due to demand for labour, partly in search of an easier life. The land left untended, already deforested to allow it to be cultivated, was unable to stand the elements and turned to sand. We can see a similar chain of events occuring in areas of rural China right now. The same thing happened at Jericho where wheat was first domesticated. The collapse of the micro-climate due to rural migration to the city, coupled with control of water supply necessary for feeding a growing dependent population leads to the eventual collapse of the civilisation, seems the natural conclusion. Although, external factors such as climate change are also factors in abandonment.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

------------------Thread Update-----------------

Archaeology: Black Sea's ancient coast found - report

Bulgarian scientists have found the ancient shores of the Black Sea, currently deep beneath the waves, which they claim were the original shores about 7500 years ago, when the Black Sea at the time was just a fresh water lake, the Bulgarian National Television (BNT) reported on July 7 2011.

The team, led by Professor Petko Dimitrov of the Institute of Oceanology in Varna, which is part of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (BAS), returned from an expedition aboard the research vessel Akademik, saying that they have found the ancient coastline close to the Cape of Emine. Archaeological evidence suggest that this particular spot was part of the ancient coastline, the BNT said.

The common theory of the creation of the Black Sea says that there was a massive deluge through the straits of Bosporus (modern Istanbul), where waters from the Mediterranean flooded into the lake. Once the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, it irreversibly changed the history of the people in the area, as well as the flora and fauna.

In 1997, William Ryan and Walter Pitman published evidence that a massive flooding of the Black Sea occurred about 5600 BCE through the Bosporus. According to the theory, glacial melt-water had turned the Black and Caspian Seas into vast freshwater lakes draining into the Aegean Sea before that event. As glaciers retreated, some of the rivers emptying into the Black Sea declined in volume and changed course to drain into the North Sea.

Just imagine, we have evidence now that there were thriving conurbations all along the banks of the Black-sea, dependent upon the fresh water life. Again, steadily moving outwards, away from the rising waters. Then possibly, a sudden rise and the gate of the Bosphorus broke. The water that flowed in that low, warm, salt rich current through the Bosphorus would have not only devastated the life in the water, their source of food and trade no doubt, but as significantly it would have altered the climate.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Gobekli Tepe is a 'sacred' site, not a habitation site. It is most likely where rites were practiced, probably given the symbology, also a hunter's rendezvous. It is known that trade existed between the two areas, the plains and the mountains prior to civilisation in the Near East. The Persian gulf culture, sea peoples, meeting the mountains peoples on the plain. Rest stops along the way, trading posts etc, are what forge cities. Rivers are routes to be followed. Roads before roads. Same with the Indus valley culture, it spread inward from the sea.

The area in question is much larger than many realize and the bulk of which is still to be excavated. It must have taken some people a while to carve and construct such places of worship. Time will tell.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The area in question is much larger than many realize and the bulk of which is still to be excavated. It must have taken some people a while to carve and construct such places of worship. Time will tell.

It grew generation after generation as it became significant to a greater body of people, and had to be able to service the needs of a great body of people. Dig beneath any of the great Temples and Cathedrals, and you will find the simple stone altar where it first began.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


That's just it we have more to discover I suspect more will come to light as we dig.

That's just it we have more to discover I suspect more will come to light as we dig.

Exactly

Gobeki Tepi is too little understood to make any pronouncements as to what it was use for or not used for. I suspect it will take 15-20 years of steady archaeology (with supporting studies from other areas) to find out if it is actually an isolated site or a central point in a matrix of villages (temporary or full time use). Right now with the limited information we have the thought that it's a S* site for nomadic hunters might be right but......only a tiny fraction of the site has been uncovered and analyzed.

We look forward to the greater details that will emerge in the years ahead.

Originally posted by ANNED



One thing that has always mystified me is why during the last ice age was North America covered with such a large thick ice sheet and parts of Asia much further north were ice free

Is this a sign that there was a pole shift and the north pole

I think it would be interesting to see the data [if there is any] of the Ice coverage in other areas as well say like in the Ande's in South America at the time. Higher elevations anywhere in the world that presently have snow and ice should in theory also have increased in size. Yet we hardly hear about those locations as well.

Originally posted by Hanslune

That's just it we have more to discover I suspect more will come to light as we dig.

Exactly

Gobeki Tepi is too little understood to make any pronouncements as to what it was use for or not used for. I suspect it will take 15-20 years of steady archaeology (with supporting studies from other areas) to find out if it is actually an isolated site or a central point in a matrix of villages (temporary or full time use). Right now with the limited information we have the thought that it's a S* site for nomadic hunters might be right but......only a tiny fraction of the site has been uncovered and analyzed.

We look forward to the greater details that will emerge in the years ahead.

We have sufficient evidence of other such sites, around the world. Sacred sites that became temples, that became the centres of trade, expanded into permanent settlements, so on and so forth, same pattern over and over again. As a Modern Anatomical Man, I can therefore take the tool of archaeology and pick up my other tool of behaviouralism, compare and contrast the two, bring in ethnography, economics too of course. And form a conclusion.

Or we can sit around for 20 years, twiddling our thumbs....and talk about it then.

Colossal !

What else can I add? Great job on your series Slayer. Congradulations and Thank you for your excellent contributions to this library. Book Book Book.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Beyond all doubt Slayer, your talant and your insanity belong here. :

I think mapmistress has hit on something that is very true: all the ocean level data in the world will only yield more supposition and guessing. We need more data. Without us having the ability to get into the oceans to ply the depths for villages, settlements, and cities, we CAN take data of migrant vegetation and other domesticated items.

Mapmistress has repeatedly posted high quality information relevant to ancient civilizations and the search of the same.

I've enjoyed reading this thread as I have learned new things here about the near/far/middle east. Another big hitter in the ancient history is the locations in Bolivia called Tiahuanaco and Puma Punku. According to mainstream archaeology, both sites are said to be no older than 3,000 years (600BC - 1000AD). As more investigation went on, it was concluded that Tiahuanaco is 17,000 years old going by this passage:

This term, the obliquity of the ecliptic, refers to the angle between the plane of the earth’s orbit and that of the celestial equator, equal to approximately 23 degrees and 27 minutes at the present. The tilt of the obliquity, however, changes very slowly over great periods of time. Its cyclic variation ranges between 22 degrees, 1 minute and 24 degrees, 5 minutes over a period of 41,000 years or 1 degree in 7000 years (this cycle is not to be confused with the better known precessional cycle of 25,920 years or 1 degree of movement every 72 years). The figure that Posnansky determined for the obliquity of the ecliptic at the time of the building of the Kalasasaya was 23 degrees, 8 minutes, and 48 seconds. Based on these calculations, Posnansky was thereby able to date the initial construction of the Kalasasaya and Tiahuanaco to 15,000 BC. This date was later confirmed by a team of four leading astronomers from various prestigious universities in Germany.

In attempting to verify the age, one need go no further than Lake Titicaca. If Tiahuanaco had designs of being a port city, the timeframe of 15,000 years would also explain why it is now 12 miles away (and now 100+' higher), from the shores of the lake. In confirmation of this, the site Puma Punku is about a mile away from Tiahuanaco and is even more mysterious. Puma Punku is known to be a port city as it has a well defined port with a 400+ ton stone wharf pier. We also know that the air is thinner and drier at this altitude (13,000') and was more than likely more arid before our last ice thaw. It is also accepteded that the stones of Tiahuanaco (up to 40 tons) were quarried from the west side of the lake and either shipped or carried on land. But by that theory, they would have had to make reed boats hefty enough to haul 80,000 lbs, yet they would still have had to drag them 12 miles to the site. How they got from the quarry to the site is still a mystery.
In excavations around the sites, fossilized crustaceans are found all over the place, signifying that it was subjected to ocean currents and tidal activity (Titicaca is a fresh water lake and is the only freshwater lake in the world at that altitude to have Seahorses), indicating that water levels of titicaca was much higher millenia ago than it is today. Either that, or the mountains were thrust up violently from sea level to 13,000 feet. It would explain the condition of Puma Punku but not Tiahuanaco, which remains elegantly intact. So was Puma Punku there 1st? No one can say. Even the Akapana know very little about them, except that it was there 'before the great flood'.
The link for this info is here , and also shows the dissarray of the stones of Puma Punku. It is still a huge mystery to what could have possibly toppled the huge interlocked stones with such force. It is speculated that both civilization existed at the same time. One of the strangest curiosities about Puma Punku is the intricate engineering of the stones, which are basically diarite (granite and diamond) and would have had to be worked with diamond.
And even more, here is another link that speaks of sonar indications of a temple complex located at the bottom of Lake Titicaca. If there does exist an underwater city there, it will more than likely predate Tiahuanaco by thousands of years. The potential exists that at one time Titicaca was a huge mountaintop valley with a temple built inside the valley. If a flood incident occurred, it would have submerged the complex and may have had a shoreline located at the steps of Tiahuanaco? It raises more question than answers, even to Posnanski, who has researched the site for 5 decades.

reply to post by OuttaTime


I think that whole area is fascinating. There needs to be a massive coordinated effort to truly explore the area on a grand scale.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by OuttaTime

 

I think that whole area is fascinating. There needs to be a massive coordinated effort to truly explore the area on a grand scale.

I agree 101%. It is as great a mystery as many of the Asian/European sites. The absence of straight information makes me want to learn more. The indigenous people there can only say it was there before they were, just like Machu Picchu. Stunning architecture, yet all appear to be suddenly abandoned.

reply to post by OuttaTime


Don't get me started on Central and South American Cultures/civilizations. They have some of the best stone carvings in the world and on some of the hardest stones. Much of the ruins are still buried.

Primitive by butt....

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Not to mention other locations in South America.
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We have sufficient evidence of other such sites, around the world.

Hans: far from it, here is a question for you what percentage of the GT site has been excavated? One can speculate based on nothing, a tiny percentage of information or the full range, in general the full range will lead to better and more accuracy in the speculation.

Sacred sites that became temples, that became the centres of trade, expanded into permanent settlements, so on and so forth, same pattern over and over again.

Hans: The how does GT fit into your theory as it DIDN'T do that?

As a Modern Anatomical Man, I can therefore take the tool of archaeology and pick up my other tool of behaviouralism, compare and contrast the two, bring in ethnography, economics too of course. And form a conclusion.

Hans: Yes you can but you do so based on insufficient data, at best you'll have an unevidenced speculation, which you can certainly do but again we won't really know what GT was untill a great deal more work is done.

Or we can sit around for 20 years, twiddling our thumbs....and talk about it then.

Hans: Why would you not speculate now? You can and are, the point is your present speculation will be most probably wrong, think flexible speculation to adapt to new information not conclusions without sufficient evidence.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Exactly! I'm so fascinated by the Puma Punku puzzle blocks and the precision of their fabrication. I saw a documentary (AA I think) and they were discussing the stones with a professional stonecutter. He said he would not contract to make stones like that as it would be too laborious and expensive to replicate in diarite.
Machu Picchu is another fav of mine as it, in many places, appears to have newer structures on top of older foundations, and some of the base stones kinda remind me of the walls of Sacsayhuaman.



Great work bro

Speculations in response to Slayers comments earlier

Link between GT and Sumer - pretty remote with about 5,000 years difference. There might be some but nothing can be determined at this time (IMHO).

Link between Sanskrit and Sumerian? None that I know of, the Ubaidians spoke a non-semitic language while the Sumerian language was an unsual language isolate - with no known connections. While Sanskrit was indo-european and not written down until thousands of years later.....I'll leave that to a professional linguist to comment on.

Could the Sumerian have come from the lower river valley of the TE that is now the Persian Gulf? Possible but there is no evidence of that. The Dilmun society arose in that area and they were probably the people who were in that area. However in that time period, over thousands of years people could move all over the place and mix in numbers of ways in which we have only a shady idea.

But speculation is grand!

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Well there is an interesting take on it. I'm aware of the supposedly "Ancient pipes" found in or near China. Were those determined to be made of lead?

I don't know about really ancient times, but in Rome, that's what They used. Some claim the decadence and loss of focus of the Roman elite could be blamed on the lead pipes... [shrug]

Actually, not quite. Augustus had the first aqueduct built. About 40 years later, Claudius had 4 more built because the city was running out of water. After he had them built, the people in the center of the city (the poor, of course) still didn't have enough water. The rich, who lived on the outskirts of the city, had first access to the aquaducts. What they did is they used lead pipes to connect themselves to the aquaduct instead of copper pipes. This way they could widen their pipes and get more water and waste it away. Claudius was of course from a noble family and he knew this trick, so he outlawed lead pipes. Therefore, lead pipes were only in use for about 50 years and only by the elite. The only effect that seems to have been noticed in this period is that the rich families were getting smaller; miscarriages and problem conceiving were the norm during this period of time.

As for lead in plates, etc, you'd pretty much have to eat the plate to get any effects out of this.