Mankind's Lost and Forgotten history. A Perspective

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Well you've done a lot of interesting research and I can tell you've spent a lot of time and effort on it.

Let me ask you a question though. You came to the thread obviously interested in the topic but seem preoccupied with debunking something?

I thought the topic was Mankinds Lost & Forgotten History. That always requires some form of debunking of standard accepted theories on everyone's part. We all know those standard theories don't make sense. I would think that's why we are all on this forum. Right?

In reference to "Coastal migration" I'm referring to the "Out of Africa" migration of the Earliest Homo-Sapiens-Modern-Man which occurred roughly 70,000 to 80,000 B.C. I'm not talking about settlements in the Aegean or Southern Europe or the Black sea area etc during the period of 15,000 to 10,000 B.C. to as recently as 4,000 to 6,000 B.C. I'm sorry if you missed my intentions on that. "The Coastal Migration" was again, in Reference to Homo-Sapians earliest spreading/migration across the globe.

And for the record, I'm not saying it was the only Migration route either. Some lines went inland. I feel you may have taken that angle out of context.

Alright. I thought you were sticking with the standard ideas that we all came from Africa and that Mesopotamia is the only cradle (an idea based in Bible stories). I will go back and re-read since you are stating that's not what you meant.

Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1

and

Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-2

So, Atlantis isn't the sole focus or thrust of this thread. It is a reference point.

Slayer69,

I'm not talking about Atlantis. I post in a thread about Neanderthals..talking about different genetic traits that could be acquired by people stuck on islands during different melt phases...then you try to link me to the Atlantis threads. I talk about Egypt in several threads and you try to link me to the Atlantis threads. I talk about Turkey's sunken coastline and civilizations and you try to link me to the Atlantis threads. I talk about Mesopotamia sunken coastlines and you try to link me to the Atlantis threads.

To have an avatar of a sunken coastline does not mean that I'm talking about "Atlantis". There's sunken coastlines all around the world. And at no time in this thread have I mentioned Atlantis, Slayer69. Please go back and re-read some of my posts in this thread and others. I don't mention Atlantis in them at all. You keep mentioning Atlantis when I'm talking about other areas of the world. Milos and its lost history is not Atlantis, never said it was. Crete and its lost history is not Atlantis, never said it was. Egypt and its lost history is not Atlantis, never said it was. Turkey and its lost history is not Atlantis, never said it was. Cyprus and its lost history isn't Atlantis, never said it was. I haven't mentioned Atlantis at all in this thread.

When I'm talking about other areas of the world and their civilizations--I'd really like to keep the discussion to the areas that I'm referring to and not have Atlantis thrown into the discussion.

Please don't misunderstand this, Slayer69. I love your posts, your threads, your research and your maps. I'm not picking on you and I don't want this to be seen that way. The sources that you quoted in your previous post were invalid. It was THOSE SOURCES that I was showing contrary data to. I wasn't picking on you. You've got some good info.

The information you have brought to the discussion is very fascinating and interesting and could shed new light on the topic. I have to ask you another question. From your Avatar I get the impression that you believe "Atlantis" was located somewhere in the area of the Aegean Sea? Is this correct?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4426ff165974.gif[/atsimg]

Which shows us an animation where the habitable land has contracted. By which process you haven't explained in this thread yet. Also, [and I think this is very important] maybe you have missed the thrust of this thread? I'm not sure if you have taken the time to fully read the premise of this threads intent based on these two previous threads content? It might help to read these two to get a better understanding of the topic.

No I haven't missed the thrust of this thread at all. Clearly you want to discuss Atlantis with me...so I will go to the Atlantis threads that you keep linking me to and pick some stuff out to post to. (my winkers don't work when I click on it? or maybe they aren't showing in the preview) I had thought that they were older threads and no one was discussing them anymore, but I noticed that other people have made recent posts to them.

reply to post by JaxCavalera


Hi JaxCavalera,

I recently read the incredibly interesting book by Christopher Dunn (cannot seem to remember the title....something like "Giza the Power Plant"....I've packed all my books as I'm moving my library so cannot check at the moment). You may have come across his work - he is an engineer who is, I believe, the only person to satisfactorily explain the Great Pyramid of egypt. He explains in great detail how the pyramid was used as a power plant including why all the different materials were used inside the pyramid and the function of all the shafts, chambers, etc.... Anyway, I found his work astonishing and his findings are yet another reminder of how great the past civilisations were............

i just wanted to say thanks to slayer for another thought provoking thread

and give it a little bump, because in my opinion it deserves it.

~meathead

reply to post by Razor7


Thanks for this lead, I will hunt down this further when I get a bit more free time. I agree then is So much we can learn from these ancient civilisations.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Your links are amazing! There not enough focus on this information imo as well.
star for you




Still have no sound and I'm on a mates laptop ???
I will persist....

reply to post by kindred


You were not there, therefore, you don't know what kind of technology they had.

A Lost World? Atlantis-Like Landscape Discovered

www.livescience.com...

ok heres the deal.....we were dumb,then really smart,,then dumb again and now we are kinda smart again....

reply to post by Stormdancer777


im not doggin on you at all,,but i wish i knew which finding of atlantis was really atlantis,,,unless theres a stargate im gonna hold out)

Originally posted by avatarded
ok heres the deal.....we were dumb,then really smart,,then dumb again and now we are kinda smart again....

Lost knowledge is not getting dumb. It just means that the elites back then kept most of the higher knowledge to themselves. If for some reason they failed to train the next generation so they could carry on or died out before teaching it to the next generation it would have been lost. Which is what probably happened.

Most modern Egyptians cannot read hieroglyphs or SUFI

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by KSprepared
It's nice to find someone who feels the same as I do. I just think it's too bad a lot of our ancient history is lost and clouded in myth

But I believe that in every Myth there is a tiny kernel of truth. We just have to think outside the box and use known real world sciences to collaborate such ideas.

This is how I have ALWAYS thought of the bible, or any other religious text, that they are observations of particular people who either started at the begining (after a 'clensing') recognising the need for some 'remembered' control of those that survived. Their reference would be, you would have to hypothesise, their own environment, their parents, their grandparents their schooling etc., the way they personally lived. Perhaps they thought their way would benefit mankind like the previous 'system' would/did not. I think the survivors of the next clean out will likely do the same.

You've enrolled another student, I like your threads

Keep it up

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by avatarded
ok heres the deal.....we were dumb,then really smart,,then dumb again and now we are kinda smart again....

Lost knowledge is not getting dumb.

Absolutely. Many seem to not understand the difference between ignorance and stupidity - and there is quite a difference.

Enjoyed this thread, as well. S & F

Aliens might be the "sexier" explanation for a lot of these events, but I still maintain that lost civilizations are the most likely - due to the Occam's Razor Principle, if for no other reason.

As a professor once said "primitive (by our standards) does not mean stupid."

Thanks.

Interesting topic related discussion
Seas 'hide ancient relics'

Submerged sites of ancient communities could be hidden in the seas around the Western Isles, according to experts. Dr Jonathan Benjamin and Dr Andrew Bicket believe the islands' long and sheltered lochs have protected 9,000-year-old Mesolithic relics. Rising sea levels may have covered up to 6.2 miles (10km) of land on the west coast of the Outer Hebrides. The archaeologists are to give a presentation in Comhairle nan Eilean Siar's council chambers on Monday.

During the Mesolithic period, also known as the Middle Stone Age, Britain was transformed from a peninsula to an island. It is thought that landslides in Norway - the Storegga Slides - triggered one of the biggest tsunamis ever recorded on Earth when a landlocked sea burst its banks. The water struck the north-east of Britain with such force it travelled 25 miles (40km) inland, turning low-lying plains into what is now the North Sea, and marshlands to the south into the Channel.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by avatarded
ok heres the deal.....we were dumb,then really smart,,then dumb again and now we are kinda smart again....

Lost knowledge is not getting dumb. It just means that the elites back then kept most of the higher knowledge to themselves. If for some reason they failed to train the next generation so they could carry on or died out before teaching it to the next generation it would have been lost. Which is what probably happened.

That's a little difficult to achieve, I think. It would require everyone to stop training apprentices (including apprentices who were about to set up shop as masters) and require those apprentices to not use any knowledge they had (no matter how slight) and refuse to pass any information to anyone else. It could happen, I suppose, if the technology was no longer useful (for instance, smithing shoes for oxen in our modern times... I don't know if you can't find a blacksmith here in American who can shoe oxen although it was a common trade at one time in our history.)

The other way to do it would be to round up all the people involved in the trade (from the newest apprentices to the most experienced masters) PLUS their entire families and slaughter them all.

Most modern Egyptians cannot read hieroglyphs or SUFI

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Interesting topic related discussion

During the Mesolithic period, also known as the Middle Stone Age, Britain was transformed from a peninsula to an island. It is thought that landslides in Norway - the Storegga Slides - triggered one of the biggest tsunamis ever recorded on Earth when a landlocked sea burst its banks. The water struck the north-east of Britain with such force it travelled 25 miles (40km) inland, turning low-lying plains into what is now the North Sea, and marshlands to the south into the Channel.

Now, that's just darn fascinating! I hadn't heard of those before (so I'm skipping off to read up on it.) This would be a case of an extreme flooding event on a continental shelf with a localized reach (worldwide it wouldn't impact water levels that much.)

I'll have to read up on the geology of this!

It would be interesting to speculate what sort of impact this had on local cultures (and now the fiction writer part of my mind comes to the fore, shouting Plot Bunny!! Plot Bunny!! Plot Bunny!!!

It's a pity that what I'm working on now involves vampires and the Borgias.

Originally posted by Byrd
The other way to do it would be to round up all the people involved in the trade (from the newest apprentices to the most experienced masters) PLUS their entire families and slaughter them all.

Which is a very real possibility in Egyptian history is it not?
Meaning, those who worked for or supported a particular Pharaoh may have been thought of as untrustworthy by the next one in line. [Political Intrigue]

Didn't Akhenaten pretty much turn his back on the "previous view/knowledge" and created his own? Which later, those who were not of his thinking attempted to "erase and or eradicate" what he set out to create?

Do think that was the first or last time in Egyptian history this type of shake up could have occurred?

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Byrd
The other way to do it would be to round up all the people involved in the trade (from the newest apprentices to the most experienced masters) PLUS their entire families and slaughter them all.

Which is a very real possibility in Egyptian history is it not?

Actually, no. Egypt had a number of nomes (provincial capitals) and it would be impossible to round up every single person involved in a particular trade -- impossible and impractical. Kill all the architects and who's left to design your next grand monument? Kill the stonecarvers and who repairs the temples? Kill the scribes and who records your history? And how do you get the soldiers to find and kill everyone associated with whatever it was?

No one was chained to a certain area. They were capable of traveling from city to city as individuals, and there were regular roads and river routes that news and people moved along. If something like that had been tried, the second city they approached would have rebelled (and there were always rebels in Egypt.)

Logistics alone rules this scenario out. Moving an army of enforcers takes quite a long time. Moving a small group of Inquisitors still takes time and the small group can't reach every single town, village, hamlet, and city and deal with all the "undesirables" in a single swift roundup. That takes too many people for the rounding up and slaughter.

Meaning, those who worked for or supported a particular Pharaoh may have been thought of as untrustworthy by the next one in line.

It's actually rather hard to tell. However, they seem to have been devoted to the Living Pharaoh and readily switched loyalties to the new Pharaoh.

Didn't Akhenaten pretty much turn his back on the "previous view/knowledge" and created his own? Which later, those who were not of his thinking attempted to "erase and or eradicate" what he set out to create?

Not precisely. He did attempt to make himself the sole representative of his own deity and appropriated the funds of all the temples, but the priests of the temples lived. He tried to have his guards smash the statues of other deities, but more survived than were smashed. And attempts to erase him didn't involve killing the whole royal family (as we see, his son survived and so did his harem and queens.)

I think Nazi Germany was probably the best example of "round 'em up and kill them" -- but it didn't get everyone and knowledge certainly didn't die.

Do think that was the first or last time in Egyptian history this type of shake up could have occurred?

Just from the sheer logistics, I don't think it ever happened. Remember that Egypt was corresponding with other cultures which also developed writing. There was a fairly free flow of technology and ideas -- once the Bronze Age arrives in the Mediterranean, it's not long before the rest of the area steps up to the Bronze Age.

Byrd,I have to disagree with your comment.

That's a little difficult to achieve, I think. It would require everyone to stop training apprentices (including apprentices who were about to set up shop as masters) and require those apprentices to not use any knowledge they had (no matter how slight) and refuse to pass any information to anyone else. It could happen, I suppose, if the technology was no longer useful (for instance, smithing shoes for oxen in our modern times... I don't know if you can't find a blacksmith here in American who can shoe oxen although it was a common trade at one time in our history.)

Because in my trade it is happening as I speak.
Not because of natural disaster,but because of economics.
Not because it is no longer useful,but because the
masters of the trade have been betrayed,and no longer wish to pass
on the skills they have acquired.
And because of lack of work,there is a gap in generations for the skill to be passed on.
I am speaking for the elevator industry.
The equipment is still there to use,
the skill required to repair them is slowly slipping away.
And before long,everyone will have to take the stairs.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I agree with this premise. I've often looked at Google Earth and noticed this as well. Especially near the mouth. If we angle the image for a better perceptive we can see what appears to be an under water troth or ancient flood/river valley up near the opening to the Atlantic.

Also the Nile, and the Po. The courses of these two rivers in particular shaped the bed of the meditteranean, and these courses are 1000s of feet below their current level much farther in land as well. The Adriatic sea is itself formed by the Po cutting a path through the Balkans and the Appennine mountains, much in the same way as the Colorado has shaped the Grand Canyon. Now imagine how the Grand Canyon would look after five million years of being submerged under the sea. The Med was dry for about 1 and half million years, the mountains it had to cut through were mainly sedimentary fold caused by the plate collosions that eventually locked in the basin and caused it to dry out. The opening where Morrocco and Spain once touched, the trough is more likely, I would presume to be caused by plate movements, with water erosion, during refilling, as a secondary factor.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
All very true. Nobody is saying they were "Inhabited" It could have been an isolated area. Much like present day where there are still isolated areas connected to present day dry land formations. Doesn't negate the possible scenario.

That those animals adapted to life without predators and did so until the arrival of predators about 6000 years ago is the best evidence that there were no land bridges. Take the Pygmy Hippo for example, not only did it not need it's huge bulk to defend itself on the Med islands, but it didn't need to use water as a retreat either, so these Hipposreverted to 'land based' knee articulation. Their joints all faced the 'right' way, the defensive traits were all bred out. That not only takes a very long time, but it also takes their not being any need whatsoever to change, not the slightest hint of a threat, ever, from arrival to demise. The land surrounding the Med, especially those mountain ranges, were densely populated with predators used to hunting cautious prey. Had even one big cat wandered along a land bridge, those literally defenseless animals wouldn't have stood a chance. So their very existence up to 6000 years ago negates any land bridges at any time after their initial arrival.

The Med, being as it is land locked to all intents and purposes is unlike the oceans. Some of the salt deposits that built up during it's dry period, are a mile thick, nothing could have lived in the conditions that it takes to create the mineral deposits and crystalisation that studies have revealed in the sea bed. It would have been like the Dead Sea crossed with Death Valley and the Grand Canyon, except for those mountains that reach high enough above sea level that they would have drawn rainfall. But all other water was sucked into the salt, just as the Dead Sea sucks in the Jordan and the rainfall from the Plains. Added to that, this was and is, an area where three plates collide, not to mention the arc of volcanos that Etna is just one of. And, until competition for the seas, and a general lack of Lebensraum in general in the region, there was no need to even venture out to explore those islands. Not all of them can be seen from the mainland...so they first would have had to clear the mountains of trees to get a clear view and then have a reason to go their. Generally, in species development, an animal overcomes their fear of water for a reason, not merely for the sake of it, although with humans, curiousity is often reason enough, it still has to develop the means. Taken in context with the known history, natural and human in the region, I doubt that their were any land bridges of significance. Nothing like Dogger Bank certainly.