Mankind's Lost and Forgotten history. A Perspective

Originally posted by ZeroGhost
We still have powerful holdouts within less evolved and less evolutionary active structures in government and religious institutions. Wars is a big sign we are still fairly stupid and have yet to evolve our intelligence from completely stupid, but as we as individuals see the complete stupidity, waste and ignorance of war, power addiction and greed, that too will change. But we may have to wait for these institutions and governments die from old age or from just being useless. Especially useless if we are to survive long enough to truly understand our place and our gifts as loving and intelligent explorers of the universe.

Excellent posts. Highly insightful. Realisation of the cycles, and the growing awareness that adversity has preceeded each great leap in our development, only brings about the more profound realisation that we have not reached the end of the cycle that began about 20,000 years ago, though it is itself a cycle within a cycle, within a cycle, and so on and so forth. But this cycle, the civilisations cycle if you will, it is the same motions being played over and over again, in ever decreasing circles, with all the reasons that you state above preventing us from breaking it's path to our inevitable destruction. Or transformation rather. There is no actual death in this Universe after all, just a perpetual process of rearrangement. There is no need for our extinction, other than a need for some to believe that laws shouldn't be broken.

Again, thanks for posting, well needed refreshment

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Well there is an interesting take on it. I'm aware of the supposedly "Ancient pipes" found in or near China. Were those determined to be made of lead?

I don't know about really ancient times, but in Rome, that's what They used. Some claim the decadence and loss of focus of the Roman elite could be blamed on the lead pipes... [shrug]

reply to post by Amaterasu



I appreciate the info. I wasnt aware of the lead pipe in ROME

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

Well there is an interesting take on it. I'm aware of the supposedly "Ancient pipes" found in or near China. Were those determined to be made of lead?

I don't know about really ancient times, but in Rome, that's what They used. Some claim the decadence and loss of focus of the Roman elite could be blamed on the lead pipes... [shrug]

The Romans also used lead bowls in cooking and in clarifying wine.

Cooking with lead

It's nice to find someone who feels the same as I do. I just think it's too bad a lot of our ancient history is lost and clouded in myth

reply to post by SLAYER69


It's an interesting thread you made, maybe now you should make one past the sumerian civilisation, since you are into this stuff and find out what was past the civilisation of summer, meaning before it. That would mean way way before.

It is my opinion that Summer is not the start. Who knows, the past may be buried deep down under the earth.

Originally posted by KSprepared
It's nice to find someone who feels the same as I do. I just think it's too bad a lot of our ancient history is lost and clouded in myth

But I believe that in every Myth there is a tiny kernel of truth. We just have to think outside the box and use known real world sciences to collaborate such ideas.

reply to post by SLAYER69

I think Tesla rediscovered what the Ancients may have already known [wireless electrical transfer etc]

I like that theory a lot.
Take Edward Leedskalnin the builder of the Coral Castle in Florida.. Building the castle with a minimal amount of tools.

Ed disputed contempory science and believed, "all matter consists of magnets which can produce measurable phenomena, and electricity." Ed would say he had "re-discovered the laws of weight, measurement, and leverage," and that these concepts "involved the relationship of the Earth to celestial alignments." He claimed to see beads of light which he believed to be the physical presence of nature's magnetism, and life force, or what we term today chi.

link

reply to post by mugger


He was a rather interesting fellow. His claims also included that he knew how the Egyptians moved the stones. [Not with Ropes and back breaking labor] He was able to cut, move and place those large coral blocks with apparent [Relatively speaking] ease.

Not a bad accomplishment for one [Older] guy.

reply to post by TeslaandLyne


That's an interesting perspective. I've come across some information and will present it in another thread on a related topic.

Stay tuned.

reply to post by Amaterasu


That's the way I see it. Although everyone in Rome had access to wine, the poor used clay and earthenware as they could not afford the 'hi tech' of the elites, which worked to their favor.

Not only did Pliny the Elder counsel that "leaden and not bronze pots should be used," but lead was also important in the manufacture of water pipes, cups, sieves, cosmetics, external medicines, paint, and, ironically, coffins.

Class Selective. The most significant source of lead poisoning was wine. To help preserve and sweeten it, the Romans added a syrup made of unfermented grape juice that had been boiled down in lead-lined pots, thereby greatly increasing the absorption of lead.

from this link. They like their wine in lead cups as it also helped sweeten the taste of the wine.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

It's an interesting thread you made, maybe now you should make one past the sumerian civilisation, since you are into this stuff and find out what was past the civilisation of summer, meaning before it. That would mean way way before.

It is my opinion that Summer is not the start. Who knows, the past may be buried deep down under the earth.

Well the easy answer is there was a civilization before the people we now call the Sumerian. These were the Ubaidians or proto-Euphrateans (some early archaeologists call them Subaidians) which seem to have arisen from the Samarra culture of north west Mesopotamia, they occupied the general area the Sumerian city states later rose from.

Before that their are lots of smaller village and town based 'civilizations' going back to the end of the ice age, before that all we have evidence for are scattered bands. Research continues.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by TeslaandLyne

 

That's an interesting perspective. I've come across some information and will present it in another thread on a related topic.

Stay tuned.

Sending gold to the ancients back from the Americas seems a novel idea and
one from Bill Lyne in an unpublished work. Although gold Roman coins noted
by Dr. Fell in America shows activity up to the fall of Rome, Lyne continued
to research considering the gold sent back by the Spanish was a source of
ancient gold as Lyne found evidence perhaps going back before Dr. Fell noted.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Well the easy answer is there was a civilization before the people we now call the Sumerian. These were the Ubaidians or proto-Euphrateans (some early archaeologists call them Subaidians) which seem to have arisen from the Samarra culture of north west Mesopotamia, they occupied the general area the Sumerian city states later rose from.

Before that their are lots of smaller village and town based 'civilizations' going back to the end of the ice age, before that all we have evidence for are scattered bands. Research continues.

The article I linked to in the OP mentioned a new theory based on some new evidence which indicates a major flood event occurring in the Persian Gulf around 6,000 B.C. Could they be a people who either traveled up the Tigris away from the "flooded" Persian gulf to settle as far away from the rising waters as possible?

Or, possibly descendants of those who built the much older Göbekli Tepe temples? Which according to the accepted dating/time-line are from a period around the last of the "Ice Age" 9,000 B.C. or possibly as early as 10,000 B.C.

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Either possibility is fascinating to ponder...

I have a question for you. If there was a major "Coastal Flood" event, what are your thoughts on the possibility that the reason both the Early Mesopotamian and Indus Vally peoples used a similar form of Sanskrit yet not comparable. Could the reason for this be the separation of an even earlier connected history [Submerged locations between the Persian Gulf and the Nearby Indus Valley] where over time the writing and the meaning of the symbols evolved separately and independently to become totally different?

Just speculating here...

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Originally posted by SLAYER69

Genetic variations...
I think environmental factors play a huge part. Of course when dealing with now Billions of people we will see untold numbers of Variations. But IMHO back in the early days we were a product of our environment and available Nutritional factors. One could possibly argue the reason "Modern-Man Homo-Sapiens" were smarter than the older lines is because of Coastal migration and the intake of seafood. Fish = Brain food. There is no evidence of those other older lines eating seafood YET.

As always when we procreate we roll the dice. There is always a possibility of some sort of positive genetic variation that is better suited for our local environment. Now which is it? A freak variation occurrence in our genetic code/makeup OR our bodies adapting to their surroundings?

It's interesting that you mention fish/seafood as brain food. I've always figured that it was einkorn wheat that was the brain food. What we eat today isn't einkorn wheat--it's emmer wheat. But what the first civilizations ate was einkorn wheat instead. And einkorn wheat is completely different than emmer. Einkorn has natural dopamine in it. And dopamine increases brain motor skills. (If you lose your dopamine producing neurons then you have Parkinsons). With the natural dopamine in the daily edible grain, human brains may have increased in intellect, capacity, and capability. So I figured that the original "BREAD OF LIFE" was einkorn wheat bread which was replaced by emmer since emmer is easier to grow and yields a greater harvest.

But when you start to dig around into einkorn wheat and its origins...you start to notice something unusual. The traditional ideas of history just don't fit the paths of migration/colonization of this particular einkorn wheat crop. There's 3 main breeds of einkorn wheat.
(ALL einkorn wheat breeds come from different areas of Turkey)

Breed #1: Aegilopoides einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum aegilopoides)-- it is adapted to warm weather and doesn't have winterhardiness. It seems to originate in the Aegean Sea along the southwest Turkey coast. And as human groups invented boats and colonized islands and new coastlines--they brought aegilopoides warm weather einkorn wheat with them. The FIRST CROP in the British Isles was aegilopoides einkorn wheat without its winterhardiness. (which means the group came from boats, not a land migration)
Breed #2: Boeoticum einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum boeoticum)-- it is a cold weather breed of einkorn that comes from the South Turkey region along the north of Mesopotamia. And it doesn't make it very far into the Mediterranean. It does make it to coastal Albania and into Yugoslavia from the Adriatic coast even though originating in Mesopotamia and South Turkey. (this creates a perplexing problem to ideas of an alleged Mesopotamian group being the cradle of civilization. If that were true, then their einkorn wheat--boeoticum--should be everywhere they colonized. But alas--boeoticum didn't make it very far)
Breed #3: Monococcum einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum monococcum)-- it is a cold weather breed of einkorn that comes from North Turkey and spread into Romania. From there it spread along the Danube inland by land migrating groups making it to Switzerland, Austria and Germany. While the other two breeds have boat migrations, this third breed has a completely land migration spreading along the Danube.

Offsite Map of Different Einkorn Breeds
--the pink dots--such as in the British Isles--are the Aegilopoides einkorn wheat, warm weather wheat without winterhardiness. And that blows away all historical theories of an alleged land migration from Germany that settled the UK with wheat as the Danube breed is cold weather einkorn, not the same breed

Einkorn.org
--above site is German, but they tend to focus their research on the cold weather breed that spread along the Danube (Triticum monococcum monococcum) and not the other two breeds of einkorn

Wiki-definition Entry on Einkorn

Sooooo....

If Mesopotamia were the alleged "cradle of civilization" then it should be (Triticum monococcum boeoticum) Boeoticum einkorn that spread everywhere. Which isn't the case.

If North Turkey groups had been the "cradle of civilization" then it should be (Triticum monococcum monococcum) Cold weather Monococcum that should have spread everywhere. Which isn't the case.

If some West Turkey/Aegean group had been the "cradle of civilization" then it should be (Triticum monococcum aegilopoides) the Warm Weather Aegilopoides einkorn that spread everywhere. WHICH IS THE CASE. It's the first crop in the Aegean. It's the first crop in the Adriatic (Italy). It's the first crop in coastal Spain and coastal France. And it's the first crop in the British Isles.

So based off crop-studies...your "cradle of civilization" comes from the West Coast of Turkey that sunk. And they invented the first boats large enough to carry livestock too.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0878a798e3f4.gif[/atsimg]
Rivers and lakes below 20 meters are estimates. Compilation Map of Southwest Turkey coastline comprised of over 70 satellite images of region in high resolution, over 50 nautical maps for comparison of sea depths and over 50 topographical/elevation maps for comparison.

One can talk about sunken coastlines all day long, but when talking about origins of people...if you don't have the crop data to back your sunken coastline data...then you've got nothing at all.

Originally posted by MapMistress
Breed #1: Aegilopoides einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum aegilopoides)-- it is adapted to warm weather and doesn't have winterhardiness. It seems to originate in the Aegean Sea along the southwest Turkey coast......


Breed #2: Boeoticum einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum boeoticum)-- it is a cold weather breed of einkorn that comes from the South Turkey region along the north of Mesopotamia.....


Breed #3: Monococcum einkorn wheat (Triticum monococcum monococcum)-- it is a cold weather breed of einkorn that comes from North Turkey and spread into Romania.....

One can talk about sunken coastlines all day long, but when talking about origins of people...if you don't have the crop data to back your sunken coastline data...then you've got nothing at all.

How did Plato put it again?

"When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient."

If we are talking about Ancient Turkey one must consider a similar mass migration into the area possibly due to a similar environmental scenario which some believe the Nile River valley experienced which spurred civilization onward. When trying to determine the source locations for such resources I say it all ties neatly together. Some areas had "Coastal Migrations" while simultaneously others simply moved to higher ground away from the flooding. Both could have happened. One does not IMO cancel the other.

If there were Ancient cultures/Civilizations then Plato may have had it right when he mentioned the flooding came Up from below. Meaning the Oceans rose [The land didn't "Sink"] it became submerged. In his description he also mentioned the survivors were "Herdsmen, Shepherds and possibly "Early Farmers"" dwelling on "Mountains" which may have become isolated islands etc.

He also mentioned that the "City Dwellers" were washed away. Losing most of their "Civilized culture" Leaving the less educated [For the time] Shepherds and Farmers. I believe then as now most of their cities were along [to a certain extent] the Coasts. Why? because they were easier to supply by sea and had access to a large food source. [Sea Food] not to mention trade etc. This is no longer the case in the Modern world we now have air and rail transport which has opened up the interior to exploitation.

Now lets discuss Ancient Aegean/Greece-Turkey

No Not this one thats present day Greece & Turkey

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I was referring to the really ancient Aegean.

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The current coastline dates back to about 4000 BC. Before that time, at the peak of the last ice age (c. 16,000 BC) sea levels everywhere were 130 metres lower, and there were large well-watered coastal plains instead of much of the northern Aegean. When they were first occupied, the present-day islands including Milos with its important obsidian production were probably still connected to the mainland.

The present coastal arrangement appeared c. 7000 BC, with post-ice age sea levels continuing to rise for another 3000 years after that. The subsequent Bronze Age civilizations of Greece and the Aegean Sea have given rise to the general term Aegean civilization. In ancient times the sea was the birthplace of two ancient civilizations – the Minoans of Crete and the Mycenean Civilization of the Peloponnese.[2]

Prehistoric Crete

Cretan history is surrounded by myths (such as those of the king Minos; Theseus and the Minotaur; and Daedalus and Icarus) that have been passed to us via Greek historian/poets (such as Homer).
Because of a lack of written records, estimates of Cretan chronology are based on well-established Aegean and Ancient Near Eastern pottery styles, so that Cretan timelines have been made by seeking Cretan artifacts traded with other civilizations (such as the Egyptians) - a well established occurrence. For the earlier times, radiocarbon dating of organic remains and charcoal offers independent dates. Based on this, it is thought that Crete was inhabited from the 7th millennium BC onwards.

Minoan civilization

The oldest evidence of inhabitants on Crete are preceramic Neolithic farming community remains that date to approximately 7000 BC.[8] A comparative study of yDNA haplogroups of modern Cretan men showed that a male founder group came from Anatolia or the Levant, like the Greeks.[9] See History of Crete for details.

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The Development of the Anatolian Aceramic Neolithic Package
11000 B.C. to 6000 B.C.

The basic assemblage that comprised the Neolithic package developed between 11000 B.C. and 7000 B.C. in places like Tell es-Sultan (Jericho) in the Levant among the Natufians and Pinarbasi in southwestern Anatolia. This was an amazingly innovative and creative period in human recorded history. For the first time large groups of people came together in an interdependent way to solve their problems of survival and to improve their quality of life by settling permanently in areas of natural abundance. The specialization of productive labor that spread its benefits to everyone is perhaps the greatest revolution in human socialization.

In about 10200 B.C. houses were being built in Hallan Çemi Tepesi in eastern Anatolia where they used stone incised bowls and made extensive use of wild plants and animals. The site has some of the earliest evidence of possible pig domestication. The settlement of Cayönü was formed in 8500 B.C. in southeastern Anatolia and developed elaborate buildings with terrazzo floors. They used awls and fishhooks of cold-hammered native copper, and show the earliest evidence of the possible use of flax to weave linen textiles. At about this same time Nevali Cori built monumental stone structures that were probably shrines. After 8000 B.C. Asikli Höyük became a real town surrounded by a city wall with a large obsidian industry. Over the next 2,000 years these trends toward urbanization culminated in the settlements of Çatal Höyük and Can Hasan in Anatolia.

------------------Thread Update-----------------

Archaeology: Black Sea's ancient coast found - report

Bulgarian scientists have found the ancient shores of the Black Sea, currently deep beneath the waves, which they claim were the original shores about 7500 years ago, when the Black Sea at the time was just a fresh water lake, the Bulgarian National Television (BNT) reported on July 7 2011.

The team, led by Professor Petko Dimitrov of the Institute of Oceanology in Varna, which is part of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (BAS), returned from an expedition aboard the research vessel Akademik, saying that they have found the ancient coastline close to the Cape of Emine. Archaeological evidence suggest that this particular spot was part of the ancient coastline, the BNT said.

The common theory of the creation of the Black Sea says that there was a massive deluge through the straits of Bosporus (modern Istanbul), where waters from the Mediterranean flooded into the lake. Once the Mediterranean Sea breached the Bosporus Strait, it irreversibly changed the history of the people in the area, as well as the flora and fauna.

In 1997, William Ryan and Walter Pitman published evidence that a massive flooding of the Black Sea occurred about 5600 BCE through the Bosporus. According to the theory, glacial melt-water had turned the Black and Caspian Seas into vast freshwater lakes draining into the Aegean Sea before that event. As glaciers retreated, some of the rivers emptying into the Black Sea declined in volume and changed course to drain into the North Sea.

Just wanted to thank everyone has posted both pro and con for making this a great discussion thus far.
Keep up the great work.

Not everyone will see eye to eye but that doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion and or dabtae.

PEACE

Slay

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The article I linked to in the OP mentioned a new theory based on some new evidence which indicates a major flood event occurring in the Persian Gulf around 6,000 B.C. Could they be a people who either traveled up the Tigris away from the "flooded" Persian gulf to settle as far away from the rising waters as possible?

This is not a new theory, but a theory that is now being evidenced by archaeological discovery. Pelegrino's Return to Sodom and Gomorrah is an excellent read that helps you get inside the head of archaelogists and Biblical scholars, I can't recommend it enough. Ever since Lawrence and Woolley began digging out there, there has been an awareness that there were two convergent civilisations operating along the Euphrates, parallel to one another. One it is likely to my mind spread from the Persian Gulf, these are the shell and pearl traders, and as I have stated to you before, I believe they originate from the Sunda penninsula.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Or, possibly descendants of those who built the much older Göbekli Tepe temples? Which according to the accepted dating/time-line are from a period around the last of the "Ice Age" 9,000 B.C. or possibly as early as 10,000 B.C.

Gobekli Tepe is a 'sacred' site, not a habitation site. It is most likely where rites were practiced, probably given the symbology, also a hunter's rendezvous. It is known that trade existed between the two areas, the plains and the mountains prior to civilisation in the Near East. The Persian gulf culture, sea peoples, meeting the mountains peoples on the plain. Rest stops along the way, trading posts etc, are what forge cities. Rivers are routes to be followed. Roads before roads. Same with the Indus valley culture, it spread inward from the sea.