Freemasons - I have a few questions.

reply to post by JoshNorton


My apologies if my remark about the discussion of Illuminati in Masonic Lodges was offensive to you. I had no intention of such. Though you didn't say so in as many words, you somewhat vaguely implied that Masons do not believe in the existence of the Illuminati today, at least the ones on ATS. I personally would believe more-so that some Masons DO believe that the Illuminati exist today, since the Masonic brotherhood consists of every day people like you and I. I meant simply that, if it were true that ALL Masons do not believe the Illuminati exists today, THAT would indicate the discussion of Illuminati in Masonic Lodges. Obviously, as per yourself, the Illuminati is not discussed in Masonic Lodge meetings...so then, there must be SOME Masons that would believe the Illuminati are still around. No?
I hope my comment does not seem snide, truly I just intend to remove any feelings of offense, should you have any.
Peace and One Love.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Scorpitarius

Isn't, however, the Masonic "religion", for lack of a better word, Sacred Geometry?

The idea that God created the Universes according to Architectural and Geometric principles and design is just a little masonic. There is also some speculation about the origins of Freemasonry with Pythagoras or the Cathedral builders having been Freemasons. But I wouldnt go so far as to say that Freemasonry is about any of that or Sacred Geometry. Most Freemasons if you ask them wouldnt even know what that is. And others you ask might have another take on it.

Sorry for this late reply. I was thinking of this earlier today, and meant to ask...
Does the "G" in the center of the Masonic square and compasses logo not stand for sacred geometry? If it does, how would a Freemason not know what it is?
Other ATS members offering replies as FreeMasons have stated that Sacred Geometry is an important factor of FreeMasonry. Is this simply a matter of difference between Lodges? Or...?
Peace and One Love

reply to post by Scorpitarius


I think, what you are stating, in a clumsy way is that since Masons as a whole do not discuss the Illuminati, because there would never be a need to, because it is a non-issue, means that it is possible some Masons still believe they exist?

The only way that "all" Masons could know they don't exist, would be if we had discussed it in Lodge and reached a unified position?

I suppose, in some logical Schroedinger's cat kind of way, that does make sense. Since the Masons have nothing to do with Illumunati, and since we do not discuss it, then any one's personal opinion, is just their personal opinion, and the opinions probably run the entire gambit of beliefs.

I think that is desperate attempt to get an admission that some Masons believe in the illuminati. In fact, we don't know any more about it than anybody else. I would guess the vast majority of Masons have never heard of the illuminati, and wouldn't have any idea what the illuminati were to begin with. I think these discussions are common in conspiracy circles, but most Masons are not conspiracy buffs; most of them are just regular guys, business men, church goers, and such.

reply to post by Scorpitarius


The "G" stands for many things as you progress through the degrees of Masonry. An Entered Apprentice does not get the same lecture as a Master Mason. The Fellow Craft Mason learns about Geometry (it isn't called 'Sacred' gemoetry."

Again, your question is off the mark, so an intelligent answer can't be made.

The Masons that have responded, have responded correctly. Geometry is an important mechanism for some of the lessons in Masonry, but the G doesn't necessarily stand for Geometry, or anything else, until that time that it does stand for something.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jrstock
Where was an attack in this thread?

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and the ones from Dr. Cosma that were deleted by mods. To name a few.

Whoa, 'portico' mean's porch. There is much more than meet's the eye. More research.

Originally posted by jrstock
Whoa, 'portico' mean's porch. There is much more than meet's the eye. More research.

Albert pike also talked about Freemasons on the portico, he also said they are intentionally misled by symbolism and their true meanings is only known to princes of masonry. These princes of masonry are members of illuminati bloodlines, who are holding key positions in the upper echelons of freemasonry right from it's inception. illuminati own and run freemasonry.

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them. Their true implication is reserved for Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. " - Albert Pike, Morals and Dogmas.

reply to post by illuminazislayer


Well, except that the 16th degree is called the Prince of Jerusalem, the 24th degree is the Prince of the Tabernacle, the 26th degree is the Prince of Mercy, and the 32° used to be called the Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret... No bloodlines. Really. Pike didn't write a damned thing about bloodlines.

As has been explained MANY times on this forum, Pike was misinformed and believed that there was historical evidence linking the Knights Templar to Masonry. Because the Templars are never discussed in the blue lodge degrees, but are mentioned in some of the Scottish Rite degrees, he wrote that one paragraph. Ever since then it's been taken out of context by people like you to try to prove something that you can't.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by TheOracle

indeed I was a member of a continental lodge (French to be precise) and it is true atheists and (some) women are allowed and this schism with the anglo-saxons is quite important,

For the record, the legitimate Masonic body in France is the National Grand Lodge of France, which is in amity with the United Grand Lodge of England, and all Grand Lodges in the United States and Canada.

The National Grand Lodge of France does not admit women or atheists.

Regularity as you define it does not equal legitimacy. As it stands, the Grand Lodge of West Virginia (recognized as regular by the United Grand Lodge of England) doesn't recognize the GL of Ohio (also regular UGLE) nor does it permit inter visitation. In addition a handful of regular Grand Lodges in the southern states in USA do not recognize Prince Hall Grand Lodges since regarded as regular by UGLE and the majority of American Grand Lodges. This doesn't make them any less "legitimate" even though some jurisdictions don't regard them as regular. Every Grand Lodge, Grand Orient or Supreme Council regards itself as "regular" and have the right to have amity with those they judge to be "regular" also they has the right to consider those it doesn't have amity with as irregular, but this holds true in their own Jurisdiction only.

Originally posted by illuminazislayer

Albert pike also talked about Freemasons on the portico, he also said they are intentionally misled by symbolism and their true meanings is only known to princes of masonry.

Id like to (once again) comment on this because it is frequently used by paranoids. First of all, conspiracy-theorists keep quoting ONE book and of that book always the same texts of an author hardly any mason is familiar with much less taking lessons from. The actual teachings of Freemasonry are not in Pikes obscure book, they are in the Ritual Books. Pikes book is only his personal interpretation of Freemasonry and intentionally creates a special mystique about it.

Secondly, each degree being "misled" about the "true symbolism" means that each degree or step of the way learns to interpret the symbols differently. The lesson of this is that anything can have multiple meanings and that as we grow we see things differently than before. This is actually a very positive lesson which paranoids make out to be evidence of some conspiracy.

reply to post by illuminazislayer

Pike basically said those who deserved to be misled will be misled.

Nowhere in any ritual are bloodlines or illuminati ever mentioned or inferred. Morals & Dogma is not the ritual or policy book of the Scottish Rite. It's an opinion piece of Albert Pike. So many non-Masons and anti-Masons misquote his work.

Morals & Dogma

Illuminati

Illuminati

reply to post by getreadyalready


In my defense, this was not a "desperate attempt to get admission that some Masons believe in Illuminati." When you follow the chain of conversation, you will see that I initially asked what the Masons here on ATS believed in in regards to the Illuminati. The response I was given, in a roundabout kind of way, was that no Masons believe.I couldn't accept that unless it is a topic of discussion.
So yes, you clarify correctly regarding my question about Masons discussing the Illuminati, however, you are incorrect regarding my intention.
I come here to learn, to research. I found this thread as an opportunity to ask a few questions I do not seem to have the opportunity to ask in my life outside of computers.
I can understand that, due to other comments here (and the seemingly overall belief about Masons), one may try to find an angle of attack in my questioning, but I assure you I do not play those sort of games. I come on as myself, not with some false personality. I ask questions and I respond honestly. When you get to know who I am and what I believe, then you will understand that I NEVER mean to make anyone feel bad or attacked. I choose my wording carefully in order to do so. For I believe that to cause ANY form of harm on someone is to steal from their energy, and in turn just hurt myself.
Peace and One Love

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Scorpitarius

 

The "G" stands for many things as you progress through the degrees of Masonry. An Entered Apprentice does not get the same lecture as a Master Mason. The Fellow Craft Mason learns about Geometry (it isn't called 'Sacred' gemoetry."

Again, your question is off the mark, so an intelligent answer can't be made.

The Masons that have responded, have responded correctly. Geometry is an important mechanism for some of the lessons in Masonry, but the G doesn't necessarily stand for Geometry, or anything else, until that time that it does stand for something.

edit on 2-4-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

Thank you for clarifying, that does answer my question regarding how a Mason would not know about Sacred Geometry.
However, to then turn around and state that my question is off the mark and cannot be answered intelligently, after you have offered an intelligent answer??!?
Perhaps you see some need to try and make me come across as unintelligent? To what purpose I cannot fathom, as I have no credibility to tarnish, I have no name to smear through the mud.
I am not driven by my ego; my fears are a much better target.
If I am wrong in my assumptions about your intentions, you have my deepest apologies...if I am correct, you have my forgiveness.
Peace and One Love

reply to post by Scorpitarius


If your intentions for asking your questions were innocent then I apologize. It just seemed they were carefully phrased in order to try and get the answer you were looking for, instead of a regular answer. "Objection, leading the witness."

As for my part, i wasn't trying to point back at your own intelligence, i was only pointing out that the way you phrased your question made an intelligent answer almost impossible. You stated what you believed to be true, and then stated how can any Mason not know this? It seemed like a way to corner a Mason, either agree, or explain how you could not know.

I'm glad you liked my answers, and I apologize if i misread your intentions with the your questioning. It just seemed a little suspicious, like a question a DA would ask, so that the defense witness either agrees, or looks stupid trying to disagree, lol!

reply to post by getreadyalready


Ha ha, I guess I can actually take the DA remark as a compliment...in case I ever need to defend myself in court? Lol. I've also been reading much to much Law...thanks to the Freeman ideas.
No problem either, there are many attacks done on Masons, or anyone with BELIEFS for that matter, that it can be difficult to differentiate between an attack and an innocent comment. I have done it myself, in real life where it can matter more.
Thanks for commenting.
Peace and One Love

Originally posted by SecretSky

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Because I liked their stated values and the mystery surrounding Freemasonry. And because I saw who their enemies were and concluded there must be a lot of really bright folks there.

Well - now I am curious. Who are Freemasons enemies?

ignorance tyranny and fanaticism.

Bro. M. A. J. - Eccl #120, F. & A. M.

i will tell you this. freemasons, have a degree scale. an when you get to the 4th degree or 5th, you have to take a oath an in that oath you must deny god. it goes all the way to the 32nd degree, which i believe barack obama is. also, if you are a member, an you tell any of their secrets, it is punishable by extreme torture. like flaying your feet, cutting off your fingers an toes, etc. thats why everything is so closely guarded. and the higher you go in to the cult, the more likely you will be killed rather than tortured or something. oh i know the shriners are doing good an all, an this isn't saying offense to them this is just fact. long time ago, during the crusades, they dipped their hats in the blood of christans. thats why their hats are that red color. not for any other reason then because red is the color of blood.

Originally posted by doomsdaymachine
i will tell you this. freemasons, have a degree scale. an when you get to the 4th degree or 5th, you have to take a oath an in that oath you must deny god.

Untrue.

it goes all the way to the 32nd degree, which i believe barack obama is.

Untrue.

also, if you are a member, an you tell any of their secrets, it is punishable by extreme torture.

Untrue.

they dipped their hats in the blood of christans. thats why their hats are that red color. not for any other reason then because red is the color of blood.

Untrue.

Originally posted by doomsdaymachine
i will tell you this. freemasons, have a degree scale. an when you get to the 4th degree or 5th, you have to take a oath an in that oath you must deny god. it goes all the way to the 32nd degree, which i believe barack obama is. also, if you are a member, an you tell any of their secrets, it is punishable by extreme torture. like flaying your feet, cutting off your fingers an toes, etc. thats why everything is so closely guarded. and the higher you go in to the cult, the more likely you will be killed rather than tortured or something. oh i know the shriners are doing good an all, an this isn't saying offense to them this is just fact. long time ago, during the crusades, they dipped their hats in the blood of christans. thats why their hats are that red color. not for any other reason then because red is the color of blood.

WOW! and I mean WOW!...It appears that our enemy of IGNORANCE has skewed your POV when it comes to us Freemasons. A Freemason is FREE-BORN of Body and WILL and I can tell you that your knowledge of our Order is wrong, wrong, WRONG! The Red House all the way to the sands are nothing more than that HOUSES! Please get your facts straight before posting, it makes you look silly to claim to know something you are TOTALLY IGNORANT of.


Bro. M. A. J. - Ecclesiastes #120, F. & A. M.

Originally posted by doomsdaymachine
i will tell you this. freemasons, have a degree scale. an when you get to the 4th degree or 5th, you have to take a oath an in that oath you must deny god.

Actually, anything beyond the 3rd is in an appendant body, and has no bearing on regular Freemasonry. With that said, what you've claimed is out of character with the blue lodge and every Scottish Rite Mason I know, including the ATS Masons (many if not most of whom are of the 32nd degree.

it goes all the way to the 32nd degree, which i believe barack obama is.

Nope.

also, if you are a member, an you tell any of their secrets, it is punishable by extreme torture. like flaying your feet, cutting off your fingers an toes,

Even if the penalties weren't symbolic, those are not them.

thats why everything is so closely guarded.

Oh, is it, now?

and the higher you go in to the cult, the more likely you will be killed rather than tortured or something.

Actually, the "higher you go", the penalties disappear. Anti-Masonic bogeyman Albert Pike removed them completely from the Scottish Rite.

oh i know the shriners are doing good an all, an this isn't saying offense to them this is just fact. long time ago, during the crusades, they dipped their hats in the blood of christans. thats why their hats are that red color. not for any other reason then because red is the color of blood.

Historically, there is no basis in fact for the charge. The city of Fez was founded by an invader, Sultan Idris I. Idris, who won a war against resident pagans at the very end of the eighth century. All of the conquered were converted to Islam and if there were any Christians, history does not record this. The cap itself wasn't begun until after the second sultan, Idris II, expanded the town to the other side of the river as he attempted to encourage local craft industries. It is important to remember that the dyes of that time were not particularly bright colors but the Moroccans had several good dyes whose formulas were secret. One of these was a bright red and was used in the manufacture of that brilliant red cap which was named after the city of its manufacture, Fez. bullet Blood, particularly in the hot Middle East, dries particularly fast. The concept of 'running blood' almost defies imagination. Further, any material (particularly the felt type of material used in the fez) when dripped in blood would turn a deep, dark color of red bordering on the brown. With the prevalence of flies and other insects, does it make sense that anyone would dip a piece of headgear so essential to protect oneself from the elements into a fluid which would subject them to all sorts of pestilence - and ruin a piece of clothing vitally necessary? The simple facts obviate the foolishness of this story.

Source.

Originally posted by no1smootha

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by TheOracle

indeed I was a member of a continental lodge (French to be precise) and it is true atheists and (some) women are allowed and this schism with the anglo-saxons is quite important,

For the record, the legitimate Masonic body in France is the National Grand Lodge of France, which is in amity with the United Grand Lodge of England, and all Grand Lodges in the United States and Canada.

The National Grand Lodge of France does not admit women or atheists.

Regularity as you define it does not equal legitimacy. As it stands, the Grand Lodge of West Virginia (recognized as regular by the United Grand Lodge of England) doesn't recognize the GL of Ohio (also regular UGLE) nor does it permit inter visitation. In addition a handful of regular Grand Lodges in the southern states in USA do not recognize Prince Hall Grand Lodges since regarded as regular by UGLE and the majority of American Grand Lodges. This doesn't make them any less "legitimate" even though some jurisdictions don't regard them as regular. Every Grand Lodge, Grand Orient or Supreme Council regards itself as "regular" and have the right to have amity with those they judge to be "regular" also they has the right to consider those it doesn't have amity with as irregular, but this holds true in their own Jurisdiction only.

*****NEWSFLASH****** THIS JUST IN....MANY YEARS AGO...

TGL OF OHIO is recognized by the TGL of England trust me, my name along with the rest of my brethren from OHIO are recorded by TGL of England. We have full legal rights & benefits, I never(and never will) have a problem attending ANY assemblies being that we have a legal charter from TGL of England. Please post straight facts, no fiction. Iv'e been all around the globe.

Got token, will travel.

Bro. M. A. J. - Ecclesiastes #120, F. & A. M.