To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

reply to post by Eliad


Hi Eliad, I was wondering where you were. I don't think the Mecca-Israel argument is the same thing. Here we have a chapter in Genisis where a covenant was made between God and the offspring of Abraham. No religion is involved. God did not say: "this covenant is made between Me and your Jewish offspring" Chapter 24 is quite specific. i.e., the offspring of Abraham. In my mind that would include Arabs as they are also the offspring of Abraham. Sure, later books has God telling Moses about the land with regard to his followers and even at that point the Jewish religion had not been established fully. My argument is it belongs to all the offspring of Abraham, If one is to believe Genesis. Furthur, I would argue that if one converts to the Jewish religion and is NOT of the blood of Abraham he has no biblical right to share in the land. Personally I consider Genesis to be mythology. But my belief is not relevant only Jewish and particularly Jewish settlers belief matters, as they are the ones that cry: God gave us the land! By their belief God did indeed give them the land IF they are of the blood of Abraham. So, If they believe scripture they must also believe that Arabs of the blood of Abraham should also share in the land. Simple argument. It has NOTHING to do with religion, it only has to do with descent from Abraham.
SIDE NOTE:

For some reason it is difficult to get posters to address this issue. We have posters quoteing long passages fron the bible that has little to do with the core issue of this thread. And of course I am an "anti-semite" for even bringing up the subject! I truly thought this would be an interresting subject to debate but I am appalled at the scum that has fallen off the forum wall. Whoever the ME Moderator is he is seruiously lax in his responsibilities for not deleting off topic and hateful posts. Don't mean to rant.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot

Absolutely agree! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Well done

Reply to post by backinblack

You can easily get proof via any search engine you choose.

But you won't because you do not really want what you say you do. Your mind is already made up.


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Reply to post by gem_man

And I have clearly show multiple times using two different religion's Scriptures, that you are wrong.


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Reply to post by gem_man

Ahahaha.

Long Scripture that has nothing to with the thread? You are in denial, bud.

I have posted Scripture that proves you are wrong.

But keep on the path you're on. Your ignorance and bias is showing through just fine.

Oh, as for converts not being part of Israel…Exodus, I believe it is, has your answer. Also look up what the Scriptures say about the metaphorical grafting of branches.




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reply to post by gem_man


Yeah I was off to Eilat for a week.

You want to go into the text? I don't know much about the bible, and I don't support the "god gave us this land" argument either.. What I can understand is the historical connection between Israel and the Jews.. At any rate:

I think this can be interpreted in two ways-
1) God has promised this land to the Jews, I am a Jew and therefor I am included.
2) God has promised this land to the group of Jews who roamed with moses in 1000-2000 B.C, and only those people and their genetic descendants are promised this land.

You purposefully interpret it as the second to challenge the claim that Jews have been given this land, but if you were to apply these same interpretation towards Christianity and Islam I'm fairly certain you could easily make a mess out of things.

I think the whole claim that European Jews aren't really Jews is just as silly as claiming this land "belongs" to us because we used to live here 2000 years ago.

We belong here because our entire history is concentrated in this one place, we belong here because that's the most logical place we'd be.
This doesn't mean we "own" the land.. Simply means we definitely belong in it..

With respect,
Eliad.

P.S
We should go for a drink next time you're around!

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Lynda101

 

--But, .....you can't escape the fact that the people who seek to gain the most from it, are in fact the people who wrote it themselves.--

So how do Muslims gain from Sura 5:21 and 17:104?

 

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Both of the Muslim Sura's are relating to historical stories from the Bible and relate to Moses..They even write about Noah. Islam is not a founder religion it honours and comes down from Judiasm and Christianity. These stories were well known by the people all over the Middle East. The Arab peoples were some of the most sophisticated and clever people on the earth.

So you are not bringing up a fresh verification from an unconnected source. Its a little like using a 3rd edition to qualify the 1st edition. If you can find something else I would be glad to see it.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Yes they do.

It is evidenced in the Torah, Tanakh, New Covenant, and Quran.

Easily provable, as I have done multiple times in this thread and others.

"Yes they do." Do what? You call that an answer?? You do no say what "they" are, what is "evidenced," nor what you think is "easily provable."

I very simply stated the theme of a large part of the Old Testament, that is to say, God's selection of a certain people to be His Special Treasure, the making of a covenant, the people's violation of that covenant, and God's dispossession of them in consequence. You can not deny this. To "prove" otherwise is to ignore a large part of God's Word. Does Laz not tell the truth on this matter?

Originally posted by Lynda101


But people have started to find fault with the bible. YHWH comes from a Pagan Pantheon, there was no Exodus, Noah comes from a much earlier time and different culture altogether. Jericho did not have walls around it when its claimed the Ark and trumpets toddled round it 7 times and its walls fell down. Three nights ago a Professor from Exeter University showed us a Temple in Syria which is identical to the drawings from the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem. I thought there was only one Temple, eg the 1st and 2nd one in Jerusalem, clearly not..

The biggest thing is that there is nothing out there to verify and cross reference much of this self-written book's claims.
What is found in Egypt carved in stone does no concur with the bible.
.

Lynda, you disappoint me. You need to read David Rohl's books - he puts the Old Testament "on the map."

reply to post by Eliad


I don't believe I would have any problem with the historical connection at all. But when Many say." God gave us this land" I always want to add "Not because you are Jews" God gave it to the descendants of Abraham. IF they would say the Jews have a historical right to the land I would be compelled to note the Arabs also have a long and reverred history on the same land.

Reply to post by Lynda101

Missed the point completely.

Early patrons of the Muslim faith literally wrote the Quran. So how did they benefit from writing what they did…or even copying what they did?

Also how did Biblical writers gain from writing about the short comings, failures, and destruction of everything they had?




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Originally posted by gem_man
reply to post by Eliad

 

I don't believe I would have any problem with the historical connection at all. But when Many say." God gave us this land" I always want to add "Not because you are Jews" God gave it to the descendants of Abraham. IF they would say the Jews have a historical right to the land I would be compelled to note the Arabs also have a long and reverred history on the same land.

God confirmed His covenant with Isaac and with Jacob. God did not confirm it with Ishmael because Isaac was the son of choice. Later, it was made clear that the covenant was conditional, and in Leviticus 26, God spells out the harsh penalties for breaking the covenant, including ending up in the land of their enemies. God states that if they later repent, He will remember the covenant, but does not promise to restore them to the land of promise. You are still not thinking past the initial promise - it does not conclude the matter.

And so many want that little strip of land, wonder what that's all about?

Maybe the rest of the world could be magnanimous and just let them keep it?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
And so many want that little strip of land, wonder what that's all about?

Maybe the rest of the world could be magnanimous and just let them keep it?

The fact that such a small barren strip of land receives so much attention from the world is an enigma.

There's little to no oil there and there are larger humanitarian crises going on in Tibet, Kurdistan, and Sudan, yet that little patch drives top stories in the media, fuels book sells, and causes an almost irrational obsessive rage in the hearts and minds of people around the world.

Until we can figure out what its all about, I don't think the rest of the world is going to be magnanimous anytime soon.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I think a History channel show mentioned something about Jerusalem being important to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. That's why they all fight over it. That surely can't be the only reason but who knows?

Question: what is the Jewish native / homeland? Is it the Israel territory? Or is it that they don't have one and just landed there, kicking other people out? Did they flee from Israel to Europe or was it vice versa? There must be another reason why the Arabs want to drive them into the sea, people don't just hate each other for no reason... It would certainly justify all the Jewish hatred if they just sat down on Arab territory out of nowhere and tried to establish a country.

If anyone can shed some light on this, thanks in advance.

reply to post by gem_man


Great OP, I don't care about the reason why they (Jewish faith) believe Israel is they're holy land, religious people are religious people, some are complete nuts and knock on your door every weekend and can still remember your name after several years of saying "no thanks" to their smelly propaganda pamphlets. I have a harder time believing the western world was enticed by rich Jews into creating Isreal. The bible says something, wow it must be true, oh and king Solomon could really speak to birds.

Sometimes I'm kind of astounded when I think of this world and us humans. Western nations give jewish people a land after the war due to the genocide in WWII, and the word of the bible, yet in Australia the native people who had been displaced and rid of their tens of thousands of years old culture and traditions (way longer than Jewish or any western history), were still considered flora and fauna up until the 1960's when the gov decided "oh They are human" and signed laws MAKING them human. Not even allowed to enter cities or walk the streets after 6pm and most certainly were never allowed to access public infrastructure or swim at local pools. If you are afraid of muslims taking over your countries you should feel some understanding about how native americans, Aborigines, felt as their culture, and land were stripped away from them.

The world and the way we have treated people/races over the course of history is the reason why everything is screwed, and I laugh at the people who consider traditional values of the past to be the one and only - they created this greed ridden society based on profit not people.

I have nothing against Jews, just against people who believe to be almighty because of their religious beliefs. I know plently of Australian Jews who accept other cultures and understand thats the Jews didnt need to be placed in the middle of cultures who have TRUELY been living side by side for thousands of years and the current day mid east tension was created by this move. Putting people of EUROPEAN ancestry (most jews had lived in Europe for over a thousand years so techically they became European after several generations) surrounded by arabs is not and has never been a good idea.

Well this spirit in the sky, says to the muslims that any one not a muslim is lower than the chit you scrape off your foot. Then he tells the jews you are my favorite people, my chosen ones. Any one not a jew is a goyim. An animal, there to be used and abused by my chosen people. Then the spirit in the sky says, to the christians just turn the other cheek, repent and believe in my son and you will go to heaven.
Its all a load of bollocks.
religion = opium of the masses.
The dark ages? That was caused by these religious perverts, any one who invented any thing or discovered something that the perverts didnt like, was burnt at the stake ect.
So the spirit in the sky gave israel to the jews? hahahaha
More bollocks and as the buy bull was written by men. Thats a load of bollocks also. It should be banned, as there is more murder rape and pillage, plus sex in it, than the best horror/porn book.
All these religious people are mad.
Muslims chopping the clits off women and the jews biting the fore skins off their sons. and the christians? In their black dresses who molest any child they can get their hands on.

reply to post by gem_man


Why on earth would i bother addressing the crux of your thread?

There is no "mistaken belief". Theres just very poor scholarship. You either didnt know that the promise of a land stretching from nile to the Euphrates is repeated many times in the context of "to your descendants" or you simply ignored that information in order to purvey the lie you wanted to convey. And since Abraham completely separates himself from Ishmael, Ishmael, and his mother Hagar are not whats being referred to by the Hebrew word זרעך "zaraka" "your offspring". Only Isaac is referred to as Abrahams heir, as in when Sarah says "for the son of that slave will not share in the inheritance with my son Isaac". Two verses later, verse 12 says " But G-d said to Abraham "do not be distressed over the boy or your slave; whatever sarah tells you, do as she says, for it is through Isaac that offspring shall be continued for you". The word for offspring here is זרע "zara". Thus, you see? Whatever sarah tells Abraham, is what Abraham should do. Sarah removes Ishmael from the equation, and G-d affirms her right to do that, although it upsets Abraham.

You will notice that Ishmael is never referred to as Abrahams Zarah. G-d has no intention for Ishmael to be Abrahams Zara.. G-d does say he will make a great nation of him, but as a separate nation; not a continuation of Abraham as Isaac and Jacob were.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone realize how many time throughout the Bible; specifically the Prophets, that God punishes Israel and say's He will give the land to others because of the abominations and backsliding etc etc etc..?
Then God say's He will plant them back in their land again, then God say's they've turned "HIS" inheritance into a detestable place and filled it with sin and carcases...Maybe we are at that point in Prophecy where God's anger is kindled against Israel? Once again, if we are to use the Bible as a reason for "this" thread, then we can just as easily use it for the very reason why there are supposed "strangers" in the land aside from just Israel.

And also...is everyone forgetting there are 12 tribes of Israel? And I believe some of them hate one another, just a thought.

reply to post by Maymunah


First, no tribes hate one another. There was only one incident in the pre-Israel kingdom period where the benjaminites got out of line with their excesses and sinfulness.

As for the other tribes, the 10 tribes of Israel living to the north with their capital in Samaria, and the tribe of Judah and Benjamin in the south, in Judah, with their capital in Jerusalem; the issue between them was initially political, but thanks to Jeravoam, became religious.

People should understand that the ancient Jews (Yahudi, the Hebrew for the anglacanized "Jew" refers to Judah. Judah won the right to be the "head" of the tribes. Thus all Israelites after the dispersion are called Yehudis, which in Hebrew simply means "He acknowledges", in reference to the one G-d) were surrounded by peoples steeped in the most profane idolatrous rites and practices. So, it didnt take long for those on the outside to infect the politics and society of Israel, eventually leading to the secession of the northern 10 tribes from Israel.

As for the Jews deserving more maltreatment... I think they got enough of that from the Persian, Greeks, Romans, Byzantium Christians, Muslims, Christians again, and many successive secular governments (Nazis and communists). I dont think theyre deserving of anymore.

Also, the Jewish calendar is in the year 5771. This most ancient of calendars began five thousand seven hundred and seventy one years ago, with the creation of Adam. Judaism teaches that 1000 years corresponds to 1 day in the creation of the world, which is why the calendar only begins on the 7th day, shabbat. The verse in question is from psalms "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

The 6000 years of history have been a historical recreation of the 6 days of creation. These 6000 years have "built" into the world, both macrocosmic and microcosmic the reality we see today. As we approach the year 6000 - the beginning of the 7th day, we enter the time of Shabbat. This is the period of Moshiach (messiah in Hebrew). A period of prosperity and peace for mankind.

So, whats happening today with the Jews is divine whether muslims, christians or secularists want to believe it or not. Its well known, especially when one understands the kabbalistic logic behind it.

Even the two Messiahs described by the Talmud (which predates the birth of Islam by 600 years), Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben David predict how this redemption is to occur.

First, to explain. Since people here arent aware of how deep these ideas really are. Moshiach - Messiah refers to both a spiritual, and a physical idea. The spiritual desribes a process - a change in consciousness. Whereas the physical manifests as political revolutions with a particular personality serving as the collective "soul" or personality of the whole. Moshiach Ben Yosef has already come. Yosef in Hebrew literally means "he will gather". Who will gather? G-d will gather. G-d gathered the Jews of the Diaspora. From Morocco and Alegeria, from Libya, Tunisia, and Egypt, from Yemen, Iraq, Turkey, Iran, the Caucusus, From Russia, Lithuania, Italy, France, England, Germany, Poland, Spain, Hungary, America and Canada (etc). The exiled "nation without a land" came back and the world stood amazed as they overcame Arab armies 10 times their size and strength.

This "gathering" was the regathering of the Jewish people after the darkness of the Shoa. The Jews rebounded as they always do, but this time with a state. After 2000+ years of humiliating servitude to Christians and as Dhimmis under Muslims, they were "gathered" mentally speaking, they felt secure for the first time in a long time with being Jews.

The figure who epitomized this process was probably the late Rabbi and Cohen Me'ir Kahane. The Midrash which describe this figure describe him as a "militant figure", which is what Rabbi Kahane was. They also say that he would be killed. Which he was. The first victim of Al Qaida on American soil.

The second Moshiach is Moshiach Ben David. The Messiah who will redeem the Jewish people and the world at large. David in Hebrew means "beloved". It describes a final state of connection between mankind and their creator - a state of union, of being his "beloved".

This time could be around the corner, or it could decades from now. Who knows. All i know is that by the year 6000, the world will be in a state of peace, and solidarity.

That means at the very most, were 229 years away