To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

feel like I should probably post these also

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law

Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Originally posted by superluminal11
reply to post by AnimositisominA

 

what if I was to tell you we are all chosen. Yes even Hitler, Saddam Hussein, all those people you say are evil and dispicable.

Awfully large pill to swallow but generally truth just seems big and hard to swallow because we have lived in a lie for so so long.

Yes, the Plan of Salvation covers everyone except Satan and his demons. However, Hitler, et. al., will surely pay for their sins.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Ahhh, last time I checked the Jewish population of Israel way out populated the "palestinians" and continue to do so.

Originally posted by superluminal11
reply to post by AnimositisominA

 

what if I was to tell you we are all chosen. Yes even Hitler, Saddam Hussein, all those people you say are evil and dispicable.

Awfully large pill to swallow but generally truth just seems big and hard to swallow because we have lived in a lie for so so long.

No its not, because the pill actually only relates to those, whose ancestors borrowed other cultures ancient pagan beliefs, which thei rthen priesthood edited and redrafted into a model that suited their sole purpose for acquiring a fertile crescent in a desert area. They awarded themselves with the title Chosen Ones just in case any other people thought their late arrival there bizarre and somewhat cheeky.

In fact one could raise up a discussion as to whether the Torah is actually a religious weapon that has been used against the rest of the world deliberately. I can think of two parables that would run with this one perfectly.

If we were chosen in any was it was actually to help each other which delivers happiness not hatred.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Ahhh, last time I checked the Jewish population of Israel way out populated the "palestinians" and continue to do so.

Demographic trends indicate a different future, however, unless the policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing continue or are ramped up. Perhaps you would prefer these crimes be given another name?

reply to post by Lynda101


The expression "the chosen ones" is very much a Christian one; you own that, I don't.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by gem_man
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Well Lemon Fresh, The covenat is set by God Himself in chapter 24 of Genesis. The land is given to the seed or offspring of Abraham. The point is not whether or not anyone believes in the bible but that the Jews believe it was given solely to Jews. That of course is completely wrong as evidenced by C. 24 of Genesis. Whatever is said afterwards is said by men not God. Do a little reading of Genesis and you will gain some understanding.

I know my Bible well, thank you.


Lets read it together, shall we?

Genesis 15:18 - On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abraham, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates."

Yes, you are correct that God gave the seed of Abraham the land. It's exact borders are even defined.

But you fail to take into account the rest of the Torah.





Genesis 17:19-22 - Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation, but my covenant I will establish with Issac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.





Genesis 16:12 - "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell beside all of his brethren. "





Genesis 34:1-15 - The Lord said to Moses, "Command the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance will have these boundaries:

Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary will start from the end of the Salt Sea, cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kedesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the sea.

Your western boundary will be the coast of the Great Sea. This will be your boundary on the west.

For your northern boundary, run a line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad, continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary to the north.

For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham. The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Kinnereth. Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Salt Sea."

"This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side."



Deuteronomy 34:1-4 - Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land - from Gilead to Dan, all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, the Negev and whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. Then the Lord said to him, "This is the land I promised an oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."




It clearly states that Israel (a descendant of Isaac) was given the land (more or less what they have now), and Ishmael was given the rest of the land., which would be from the Jordan to the Euphrates.

This is further evidenced in the Quran:

Sura 5:20-21 - Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people. "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

who is the seeds of Abraham who lie between the Nile and the Euphrates Since 1400 year till now..isn't the Arab, whom descendants of Abraham through Ishmael the eldest son Of Abraham ,If that not fulfil the promise that God made it with Abraham, then what is that mean ?

and just thinking if there is any people whom really descendants of Abraham that God promise him and made a covenant with him and his seeds will be Inherits the holy land from the river of Egypt unto the great river?
the jews Or palestinians :are really descendants of Abraham now ( the jews who belong to the jews through the mother Or the plaestinians whom descend from Ishmael the eldest son Of Abraham whom belong to the Arab through the father not the mother .. what does the science of Genealogy say about that ,,

and about Ishmael :
The liars of the NIV Bible had inserted a forgery into their English translation. In Genesis 16:11-12, they inserted a cheap name-calling "wild ass" for Ishmael, while the original scripts in the King James Version Bible called him "wild man":

"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. (From the KJV Bible, Genesis 16:11-12)"

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by gem_man
Since I travel to Israel frequently on business I have had many opportunities to speak with Rabbis and less devout Jews on many issues including the historical ownership of the land of Israel. I have been told many times that Israel, including "Greater Israel" (The land from the Nile to the Euphrates) has been allocated to the Jews by God. It is their passionate belief.

This belief is the reason that the government of Israel sends settlers into the West Bank to establish settlements. It is the reason so many non Jews have been forced into exile as refugees, displaced from homes and land their families have occupied for many generations.

So is this the true covenant with God? That Jews have a biblical right to this land to the exclusion of others? Well, lets take a closer look at this. In fact, Genesis, chapter 24 (where the covenant is established) certainly does NOT give anything to Jews. Nothing! The covenant is with the OFFSPRING of Abraham. It has absolutely nothing to do with the a religion. Now, the offspring of Abraham includes some people who happen to practice the jewish religion but also some who have chosen Islam or Christianity as their religion of choice.

Eastern European Jews are converts from the line of Japheth NOT Abraham which excludes them from the covenant. Shepardic Jews are most certainly from blood of Abraham and share in the covenant. Arabs are from the blood of Abraham and also share in the covenant.

There has been some genetic investigation into "Jewishness" with the "Cohen gene" which may suggest descent from a jew but it has nothing to do with the genetic line of Abraham.as all Jews do not have descent. 2-3000 years ago conversion to Judiaism was not uncommon.

Whats the point? Well, it seems to me if one wants to cry from the mountains that God gave them this land they should be sure they in fact do have a biblical right to it. To displace an Arab would be an affront to both God and Abraham as Arab descent from the blood of Abraham is certain.

edit on 30-3-2011 by gem_man because: spelling

When Abraham questioned God about his son Ishmael, God said that He would bless him, but that in Isaac, shall your seed be called. Isaac had Jacob, who's name became Israel, who's descendents were promised the land of Abraham, not the Ishmaelites. So, they have the right to possess the land.

you need to ask yourselves whether the Bible really contains an exclusive covenant with Isaac in the first place?
The only way to be sure is to look at the original Biblical text, which means to read it in Hebrew.
The vast majority of Jews and Christians, who are non-Hebrew-reading, derive their information about Genesis 17 from translations. the translators lie like hell.
You can't count on a Jewish or Christian translator to tell the truth about Ishmael, when the translator's father taught him that Ishmael was a deadly enemy.
The Jews changed the name of Ishmael to Isaac because of chauvinism

reply to post by Abrahim

This is very inaccurate of what your saying, you need to do your homework about the translations of what language it was derived from.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Lynda101

 

The expression "the chosen ones" is very much a Christian one; you own that, I don't.

Ah really, so you admit the Jews were not especially 'chosen' to occupy the Holy Land. Although educated by christians I am not by inherited religion a Christian so I don't 'own ' whatever it is you think I do.

You seem to want the name Palestine to disappear, would it make you feel better were it erased from history?
A history you clearly don't either know or want to acknowledge.

Palestine originates from the Philistines who lived there when it was called Caanan. They were an Iron-Age civilisation having to deal with a Bronze-Age Israeli nuisance, which occurred because they would not give the Israeli's iron weapons as they presumably thought them too immature and aggressive to handle them. Both of which were defeated by the Babylonians. Take a peek at 1 Samuel and catch up on your historical knowledge.

Oh dear! you walked into 1AMIAM's post didn't you with your ISRAEL, so you tell us
IS = Isis, she was the Goddess of Religious Beliefs
Ra = the Sun God
El + God of Life.

One thing we may concur on is that the name Israel is a beautiful, inspirational name for a Country. The makeup of the word itself is particularly interesting because of the obvious!

We will never concur on the history of this area though. However, If we accept that the theoretical Abraham travelled from UR, Babylon then through to Egypt (disregarding his dalliences with Melchizedek) one is on safe ground considering him an envoy of diplomatic status. Peasants didn't get near kings or Pharoahs especially in those ancient times, pathetic to say they did or Pharoah was short of beauties of every shape and colour imaginable so needed to take women he fancied - he left that to his men.

It is probable that Abraham was, maybe subject to agreement with the King of Babylon instructed by The Pharoah to go to Canaan and administer it - we know when they communicated it was with titles such as' My King, My Lord and My God la la' and effectively he would have total control of that land. When he referred to his Superior he would have used 'My Lord, My God' etc as a normal title. Visiting angels and Gods were never described as supernatural they were always men or something tangible.

Then we have in later times, another Egyptian effort to do the same thing again via Moses. If one adds into the mill the grist Jerusalem was destroyed simply because of a second effort by its King to avoid paying his tributes you see that Jerusalem was on land which was a Protectorate, not a Sovereign State, then you unravel the basis of false claims. which is what the thread is really about.

Most of us don't care who lives where, if you took a little look at the breakdown of the Jewish population in Israel you will see 42% are secular which outnumbers the fanatics like your good self considerably, thank the goodness of human nature.

Originally posted by Lynda101

It is probable that Abraham was, maybe subject to agreement with the King of Babylon instructed by The Pharoah to go to Canaan and administer it - we know when they communicated it was with titles such as' My King, My Lord and My God la la' and effectively he would have total control of that land. When he referred to his Superior he would have used 'My Lord, My God' etc as a normal title. Visiting angels and Gods were never described as supernatural they were always men or something tangible.

It is not probable at all. If we look into the Book of Jasher, which covers the early life of Abram/Abraham in more detail than Genesis, we find that Abram was, at birth, marked for death by the king of Babylon, Nimrod to be exact. Abram was saved by his father Terah by trickery, hidden in a cave for ten years, and then sent to the house of Noah and Shem. Until the day of his death (at the hand of Esau!) Nimrod believed that Abram was dead. Abram was certainly not in Canaan as Nimrod's representative.

reply to post by gem_man

To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

Pointless and argumentative.

If God does indeed exist and if He did give the land of Israel to the Jews... then there will be a state of Israel for as long as the Jews don't tick him off again so that they aren't sent into exile in Babylon or something.

But if there is no God or if He did not give the land to them, then the state of Israel will eventually be overrun by the Islamics and perhaps, even a second brush with genocide of people like Iran's Ahmadinejad has his way.

besides that, it is really pointless to argue because those who hate the Jews will agree with you and those who support them will disagree.

We are no longer a single race of beings on this planet. We a fully divided, excitedly tribal and wonderfully prejudiced no matter who or what we claim to be.

Best

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Lynda101

It is probable that Abraham was, maybe subject to agreement with the King of Babylon instructed by The Pharoah to go to Canaan and administer it - we know when they communicated it was with titles such as' My King, My Lord and My God la la' and effectively he would have total control of that land. When he referred to his Superior he would have used 'My Lord, My God' etc as a normal title. Visiting angels and Gods were never described as supernatural they were always men or something tangible.

It is not probable at all. If we look into the Book of Jasher, which covers the early life of Abram/Abraham in more detail than Genesis, we find that Abram was, at birth, marked for death by the king of Babylon, Nimrod to be exact. Abram was saved by his father Terah by trickery, hidden in a cave for ten years, and then sent to the house of Noah and Shem. Until the day of his death (at the hand of Esau!) Nimrod believed that Abram was dead. Abram was certainly not in Canaan as Nimrod's representative.

edit on 15-4-2011 by Lazarus Short because: posted on quote - oops

edit on 15-4-2011 by Lazarus Short because: a bit more