To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Good evening to you Lux and my apologies for disappointing you. I will look out for and read David Rohl's books

I have been reading Walter R W M y de la Torre's comments on W G Lambert's observations on Genesis which i will paraphrase:

Genesis's motifs and charaters, God, Adam, Eve, the Serpent and Noah are adaptions of characters and events occurring in earlier Near East myths. In some cases several characters and motifs from different myths have been brought together and amalgamated into Genesis stories.

The Hebrews were combining old themes and putting new twists to old ideas. de la Torre indicates that, at times, "reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and re-interpretation of the Mesopotamiam myths. The "reversals" can take the form of different characters, different locations and the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationships.

Genesis 1 - 11 Adapa and the South Wind, Athahasis, The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish are the myths involved.

In the Babylonian myth the serpent is Ningishzida whom is a friend of Adapa and helps him in his search for immortality.

In Genesis the serpent is an enemy of Adam trying to trick him into understanding good and evil by developing a moral sense of thus becoming fully human.

The Gods of Babylon become the ancient Israelite's God.

The Mesopotanian world view was that earth had gradually improved since creation.

The ancient Hebrews adopted a worldview in which the universe was created perfect but degenerated to the point where God had to initiate the largest genocide in history, killing every person from newborn to the elderly in the flood of Noah.

As we have a number of versions of the Babylonian myths from different city libraries which corroborate each other,
I am still in difficulty getting past the right claimed by a people whose ancestors wrote an unoriginal book in which they claim another Group of people's recycled God(s) chose them in order to give them an exclusive claim to some land in another country.

reply to post by dontreally

Also, the Jewish calendar is in the year 5771. This most ancient of calendars began five thousand seven hundred and seventy one years ago, with the creation of Adam.

You truly believe man has only been on the earth for 5771 years??
Sorry but IMO you are reading fiction..
Actual FACTS tell a different tale..

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Lynda101

 

Missed the point completely.

Early patrons of the Muslim faith literally wrote the Quran. So how did they benefit from writing what they did…or even copying what they did?

Also how did Biblical writers gain from writing about the short comings, failures, and destruction of everything they had?

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

I know the Quaran was written over 100 years after Mohammed had died and you would need to ask them why they included what they did. I have no idea how one religion benefits from regurgitating another religion's stories, except that they regard The Jewish and Christians as all people of the book.

The thread is about a claim to land. The proof of this claim is made through the bible and what I have seen of the origins of Genesis, I would say any claim is precarious to say the least.

reply to post by backinblack


You have a very poor memory.

Ive explained before that the Jewish tradition - Kabbalah - has different explanations for this narrative.

Its basic logic to understand that the 1st chapter of genesis speaks in allegory. I would suspect you of some mental problem if you believe literally Adam and Eve lived in a garden, with a bunch of trees around them. And a snake came one day and tempted Eve.. Sad thing is, most people believe this, on a simple, literal level.

The truth is obvious. The Rabbis of the present and past do not believe that. Not even the early christian theologians who recieved much of their understanding from the Rabbis believe that. Its allegory for #s sake.

I just cant explain it to you, cause i am sick of talking to you. You will ignore it. I will then be dragged into deeper conversation with you, and, well, I have resolved not to do that anymore. Continue quoting me for all i care. After this post, this is my last to you.

Homo Sapiens existed before Adam. 6000 years ago mankind evolved or reached a level of consciousness that dramatically altered his relationship with reality. It is no coincidence at all that the oldest relics of civilization go back to around 5700 years ago, to Sumer. Before then, man was a different creature. He had an intelligence, but it hadnt become what it did with the creation of ADaM. You could say he lacked a divine soul, a level of consciousness that sees himself and his possibilities.. This why pre-adam stagnated for tens of thousands of years at the hunter/gatherer level.

This higher level, in Hebrew called Neshama is whats seen as a reflection of G-ds image.. G-d is infinite, and Adam too took on an aspect of infinity.

But again. You dont care, or understand the psycho-spiritual nature of the Torah, or myth to begin with.

So, last post. That is it between you and i backinblack. This will be my very last waste of words on you.

reply to post by dontreally

Ahh good work..
I state facts and you merely insult and then say you don't wish to debate..
Nice cop out..

Homo Sapiens existed before Adam. 6000 years ago mankind evolved or reached a level of consciousness that dramatically altered his relationship with reality. It is no coincidence at all that the oldest relics of civilization go back to around 5700 years ago, to Sumer.

What a crock..Many believe the pyramids are much older than that..
Some say 12,000 years..
Kinda blows your good book out of the water..

But you carry on believing in fairy tales and ignoring facts..
Suits you "chosen ones" agenda far better..

reply to post by Topato


Jerusalem is important to some Christians, many Jews, and is the third holiest city in Islam.

It still doesn't explain the obsession by the world though. Most of the governments in Europe are secular. Even most of the people in Europe are not very religious yet the obsession is there. The same could be said for Canada and Australia, both are very secular.

In the US its about half and half. About have religious and half secular, but even the secular types here are obsessed with Israel.

When much of the Arab-Israeli conflict started it was propelled by secular nationalists in Egypt and Syria. The same for the PLO they were secular nationalists. It wasn't until the Iranian Revolution of 79 and the rise of Hamas in the late 80s that the religious aspects became a major issue.

Even then, the nationalist agenda, aka Palestinian homeland, is still at the forefront.

An example of the bizarre. The Saudi Kingdom occupies Mecca and Medina, but the Saudi royal family live like apostates. Yet, the outcry is much louder against Israel than the Saudi Kingdom.

There are also the numerous nations that arn't Christian or Muslim, like China. Why do they care about what happens?

In regards to territorial invasion, many Jews were there way before the Balfour Declaration. There were enough Jews there when Napoleon invaded the Ottoman Empire that he promised them, the Levantine Jews, independence if they joined him.

That was 1799.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
An example of the bizarre. The Saudi Kingdom occupies Mecca and Medina, but the Saudi royal family live like apostates. Yet, the outcry is much louder against Israel than the Saudi Kingdom.
.

The House of Saud is Jewish.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


In what world is the house of saud jewish? LOL

That is the most insane # i have ever heard.

Mohommads last wish was that "the Jews not live in the arab peninsula with the Muslims". In other words, Jews havent lived in the Arabian peninsula for 1300 years.

So how on earth is the house of saud Jewish? The house of Saud being a tribal clan from the northern Hedjaz. How are they Jewish if all Jews were kicked out, or murder in the days of the prophet mohommad and his father-in law Omar?

Do you believe every anti-Jewish conspiracy you hear? I also hear the bushes are Jewish. The clintons too. Barak Obama is Jewish aswell. So was Saddam hussein. These all being popular conspiracy theories on the internet. Everyone powerful is apparently Jewish. All you need to prove it is photoshop, and photoshop a kipa, talmud and some other Jewish insignia on the said person, as theyve done with a photo of bush, and than these christians/muslims magically become Jewish.

Leave it at this. If they dont advertize themselves as Jewish, than theyre not Jewish. Thats the only sensible, and sane attitude to take.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


You realize that would make the anti Israel people even more hypocritical?

I have never seen anything that points to them being Hebrew, but if they were then the extremists apparently care more about Jerusalem than Mecca, the holiest of all cities in Islam.

Again this points out the irrational obsession with Israel.

reply to post by gem_man



Your whole theory is Bunk according to the bible which you try to use to prove your words: You have to take into account other passages than the one you use from Genesis to see the whole story.

First off, we see that Issac is given this promise also and his descendants:

"The Lord appeared to Isaac, Abraham's son by Sarah, and who inherited the land promise of God to Abraham, and said: "Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father"; Genesis 26:3

And then to Jacob (Israel)

"After Isaac, Isaac's son Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel by God: "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and men, and hast prevailed," Genesis 32:28, inherited the land covenant with Abraham as declared by God in Genesis Chapter 28: "I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed".vs. 13

It is His descendants that were in bondage in Egypt. In Numbers when Moses lead the Israelites (children/descendants of Israel) out of Egypt we see this:

After Moses delivered the Israelites out of Egypt into the promised land of Canaan, God gave specific boundaries of Canaan land as declared in Numbers 34:1-2:

AND the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof: 1-2

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


"For some reason it is difficult to get posters to address this issue. We have posters quoteing long passages fron the bible that has little to do with the core issue of this thread. And of course I am an "anti-semite" for even bringing up the subject! I truly thought this would be an interresting subject to debate but I am appalled at the scum that has fallen off the forum wall. Whoever the ME Moderator is he is seruiously lax in his responsibilities for not deleting off topic and hateful posts. Don't mean to rant."

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by gem_man
reply to post by Eliad

 

I don't believe I would have any problem with the historical connection at all. But when Many say." God gave us this land" I always want to add "Not because you are Jews" God gave it to the descendants of Abraham. IF they would say the Jews have a historical right to the land I would be compelled to note the Arabs also have a long and reverred history on the same land.

God confirmed His covenant with Isaac and with Jacob. God did not confirm it with Ishmael because Isaac was the son of choice. Later, it was made clear that the covenant was conditional, and in Leviticus 26, God spells out the harsh penalties for breaking the covenant, including ending up in the land of their enemies. God states that if they later repent, He will remember the covenant, but does not promise to restore them to the land of promise. You are still not thinking past the initial promise - it does not conclude the matter

Small problem here. There is actually a promise in the bible that Israel will be restored to the land. So let me point out the prophecy.

It appears that Herod back in the first century AD may have triggered the curse of Malachi. And after looking for the details I figured it out and here is the details.

Herod killed John the Baptist which Jesus Christ claimed was Elijah the prophet.

Malachi points out the job of Messiah involved Elijah as co-messiah. There was supposed to be 2 of them. And Malachi 4 threatens a curse if he is prevented from doing his part of the job.

As provided in you post a top level Leviticus 26 curse involves the people taken away as slaves to the land of their enemies.

But to find the actual details of the curse you need to look at the book of Hosea. Which states the following.

Hosea 1.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

And here is the declaration of the curse
Hosea 5
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

And here is the timeframe of the curse. And 2nd Peter 3-8 to allow you to understand the 3 days.
Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2nd Peter 3-8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The curse is supposed to be 2 thousand years long. Followed by a thousand year "day of Jezreel".

Unfortunately for all the Jew haters out there this curse is about ready to end. Which explains despite their best efforts why the Muslims have never been able to dislodge the Jews from Israel. They are supposed to be there now.

reply to post by ntech

Unfortunately for all the Jew haters out there this curse is about ready to end. Which explains despite their best efforts why the Muslims have never been able to dislodge the Jews from Israel. They are supposed to be there now.

Yep, God's word..
Nothing to do with the $billions in aid and weapons given to them..

Without the assistance do you think it may have been different?
IMO, self fulfilling prophecies are BS..

reply to post by backinblack


How else would you expect a God to uphold his promises? Armies of angels destroying the enemies of Israel?

Can you be absolutely sure the weapons and cash you mentioned don't have the fingerprints of God on it?

Originally posted by dontreally
What a ridiculous argument..

The Ethics of the bible, the "Thou shalt not kill", "though shalt not steal", "thou shalt not commit adultery" are basic, intutively recognizable moral truths.

So you call my argument ridiculous but you use the Bible as one of your supporting points? I'm an atheist, I don't believe in that crap and I came to my set of morals and ethics based on modern society around me, not what a bunch of scared old men dreamed up as a means to control the masses. And I *do* believe killing is ok, when the circumstance calls for it, like protecting your family from harm.

Just 70 years ago the most civiilized society in the world, Germany, committed the gravest of human offences in history.. If modern "morality" based on humanism, as it was in NAZI germany makes us "know better", i would say based on that philosophy, we know nothing at all, and infact appreciate much less than those in the past did.

We DID know better - what the hell did you think WW2 was about?? A lot of pushing and shoving over name calling?! The modern, civilised world joined together to put an end to Hitler and his atrocities. Yes, millions died and suffered. But I think many more would have had we not "known better" and stopped him.

The atrocties of a few do not represent the whole. You do know that, right?

And youre ridiculous for even assuming mans moral sense has "improved" because now we have cars, and better clothes and toilets.

I never said it was because we have cars, better clothes and toilets.

That hasnt made us anymore able to make right or wrong choices. This argument of yours is intrinsically false.

So apart from the UN, the Universal declaration of human rights, Amnesty Intl, Red Cross, Geneva convention, women allowed to vote, etc, we've not progressed at all.

Anti-semitism continues today, mainly under its new label "anti-zionism", and still there are many white supremacists and radical leftists and Islamists who just hates Jews because to them Jews embody evil, for whatever reason theyve projected on them.

Absolutely. But again, that does not necessarily reflect the opinions of society as a whole. Just a group of idiots.

We shouldnt forget the holocaust because simpl put, anti-semitism, or if you dislike this anochronistic misnomer, anti-Jews, is not a local phenomenon. It happens again and again.

Ugh, here we go, when someone gets incensed about bashing Israel and/or the Jews - pull out the Holocaust card.

Originally posted by ntech
reply to post by backinblack

 

How else would you expect a God to uphold his promises? Armies of angels destroying the enemies of Israel?
Can you be absolutely sure the weapons and cash you mentioned don't have the fingerprints of God on it?

Yep, I'm pretty sure the only fingerprints on that cash were those of deceived US taxpayers..

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I gave you a star

Very good and straightforward words! Why does it appear that the whole world is so preoccupied with that land in particular? Maybe it's something within the very soul of man?

There is another thread similar to this one ( actually now I'm getting them a little confused) because I'm posting in them both, but you said ....

In regards to territorial invasion, many Jews were there way before the Balfour Declaration. There were enough Jews there when Napoleon invaded the Ottoman Empire that he promised them, the Levantine Jews, independence if they joined him.

That was 1799.

And those Jews are who I believe today to be the "Palestinians". God said, I would scatter you and wipe you out, but preserve a remnant. And that's why I firmly believe the Palestinians are of the tribes of Israel, therefore they are fighting brother against brother-which is also spoken of by Jesus as a prophecy that would come to pass.

reply to post by Maymunah


You know I agree with you here.

There was a genetic study done on Israeli Jews and Palestinians that showed they were closer related to each other than anyone else in the world.

In my opinion this leaves two or three reasons.

1. The Palestinians are Edomites, this really doesn't make sense though as the Edomites were assimilated by the time of Herod.
2. The Palestinians are from the Lost Tribes. This is somewhat better, but there are indicators of Lost Tribes among the Kurds, Afghans, Indians, Chinese, Indochinese, Kenyans, and Ethiopians.
3. The Palestinians are descended from Jews who converted to Islam and intermarried with some Arabs.
To me this is the most plausible. The genetic studies claim they are still closer to the Israelis than anyone else in the region.

Now we just have to figure how to get all sides to embrace each other as one tribe.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Number 3 seems the most plausible to me as well King Solomon alone proves today that the Israeli people are a mixture, maybe this is what God meant about the scattering and wiping out and preserving the "true" unmixed remnant?

My husband is Palestinian, his mother and father were ushered out in 1967 and I can tell you that their family is HUGE (even some of them still reside in Palestine) Most are here in Jordan though, anyway, from all of my reading and dedication to the Biblical people and historical "Hebrews" They fit, beyond a shadow of doubt!

They could be a portion of Judah, or even Dan? I assure you one thing though, the Palestinian race definitely lines up more, physically and mentally and spiritually with Israel, then Arabia. The Palestinians and Arabians are like night and day, even in their appearance. Which might explain the genetic study you mentioned.

My thoughts though were always...why Islam though and not Judaism? I have a few thoughts, but I'd get too lengthy I'm sure

reply to post by ntech


I'm glad to see you are thinking beyond that initial promise of land, unlike so many others. The time frame you mention is very, very close, but I don't believe it is here yet. When it is, it will happen during the age of Tabernacles, which is not quite here yet - we are still in the Pentecost Age. Further, it will happen under the express guidance of God, not some human political machinations. Further, it will involve all twelve tribes, not merely the Jews. This is a counterfeit fulfillment