To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

Every effort possible has been made by the UK Government, to stop people here questioning or verbalising their opposition to the Jewish 'State of Israel' and their questioning and objecting to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. No other country has had to resort to legal blackmail in order to exist. What is laughable, purely about this effort, is that some Rabbi 's think no Jew should have a State and that the State of Israel should not exist. They may be a minority but they say they have a valid religious point. Personally I don't have any objection to a Jewish/Palestinian State I wish it was thriving, and one could feel safe whether visiting the Palestinian or Israeli parts and one could enjoy the wondrous history of the area. I object to the atrocities though..

I have a few questions of my own: Where is the proof that Abraham ever existed? So much of the Genesis where the first claim to land arose is borrowed from other cultures and consequently links into a time we have no records for except a shared flood story from all over the world. Trouble is a myth repeated enough becomes a tradition, which then becomes culture which may not be based on actual truth.

In Genesis we have several names for God. El Elohim El Adonia and Jehovah. The name Israel even has El at the end of it. We appear to have one God languishing under the names of El and Jehovah and later in time suddenly up pops the violent Yahweh. I notice in some bibles Yahweh has leapt into the Garden of Eden but his relationship I understood was with Moses and that his name is a combination of the two slightly different gods of Judea and Israel so its probably an Ezran political linkage, not a religious genuine name (yes I know we don't use G-d name). .

We also have Moses yet there is no evidence apart from scripture which we know is politically or religiously tweeked.
that he existed or exactly whom he was. When with Moses, God appears to have resided either on top of a mountain in his pillar of smoke or in the Tabernacle. What is interesting is that God when in the Tabernacle wanted a chair and table - was he a God with a human body?. The measurements of the furniture are a little alarming. (that's another thread)

I want to ask about vacant possession. We know that God gave Canaan to the Jewish people technically unemcumbered, yet Jerusalem became under the protection of the Babylonian King, so it was not an independant State. The Jewish King in Jerusalem refused to pay the Babylonian King his taxes or dues etc. This was sorted, but he tried it a second time and back came the Babylonians who killed him sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.

The Jewish people were taken into exile but upon being given their freedom,.many of them chose to abandon their Promised Land and not go back to it. Why when your God selected you and give you a parcel of land would you break your covernant and not, immediately you were able return to that land. orbecause of this abandonment, is your covernant broken and until God makes a new one with you your rights to that land are extinguished,. .

There was a lot of intermarriage between the different peoples in Canaan etc I know there was ethnic cleansing by Esra and Nehemiah, but I would like to see the part where he excludes all others from 'his Promised Land'. I find it odd that after having created the world and man, he would not have prepared a pure/separate land where only His Chosen would dwell, not one where loads of others had lived and would want to continue living there. I also struggle to give credence to the idea that a supernatural all power God would need to get people to fight their way to a land he was giving them.

. .

In the beginning, Man created God, and it was good. So afterwards god does whatever man says he does. Like the jews getting Isreal.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Yes, the OP is correct.

The Genesis verse that everyone uses to make it seem like we have to support Israel, is only specifically referring to ABRAHAM. I looked this up in a comparative Bible, and the commentary states that the wording used is the singular and personal, it is not referring to the nation of Israel in any way.

The problem is the fact that many Christians haven't read this verse for themselves and if they have they haven't really thought about what it means.

Their pastor tells them this means God wants them to support Israel, and like sheep they do what Jesus would never support. Jesus did not advocate killing your enemies, far from it.

By supporting Israel, a nation that persecutes their neighbors, and for the most part, doesn't even believe in him, we are doing exactly what we are told not to do, following darkness instead of light.

And yes, lets read up on Moses, also. Read the part where it says that if the covenant is broken, they will be kicked out of the land, by God. There are actually many places in the Bible where this is confirmed.

Go here to see what the scriptures say about who is Biblicaly allowed to occupy the land.

The Old Testament emphasizes in dozens of the clearest passages that never will God allow an unjust rebellious nation of Jews to occupy His Holy Land [see footnote].

He wouldn't let even the spiritual colossus Moses in because of one infraction. He wouldn't let the ten doubting spies and an entire generation of Hebrews in because of unbelief.

Instead, God made it clear that only a believing remnant, trusting God and exemplifying righteousness, justice, and mercy (including to the "strangers in the land"), would have sanction to enter and occupy. This happened only two times in Old Testament history: under Joshua and, later, Ezra and Nehemiah, bringing back an obedient remnant from Babylonian captivity.

On the other hand, God repeatedly warns that if the Jews do occupy Palestine and yet turn from obedience He will scatter them to the nations. They cannot return until they embody the same righteousness as they did under Joshua and Ezra.

Scripture is also emphatic that at the second coming of Christ a beleaguered Jewish remnant, survivors of the collapse of the present counterfeit, anti-Christ state of Israel, will trust in their rejected Messiah, Jesus. At that time, and only after such repentance, will Christ authorize their return to occupy the land under Christ's benevolent rulership for 1,000 years.

Who then owns the land and has rights of occupation today? Righteous Jews who honor Israel's true Messiah, Jesus, will always own the land of Israel and have rights of occupation. But, until national Jewish obedience occurs again, God made two things very clear after exile of the Jews to Babylon in the sixth century B.C.

* Jews must dwell among the nations, seeking the peace and prosperity of their neighbors (Jer. 29:4).
* Surrounding Gentiles would have the right to temporarily dwell in and cultivate the land. Since they were not recipients of such transcendent truth and light as Israel, God will not hold them to the same high moral standard. But, if they became overtly wicked, He would also expel them.

Footnote:
* Scriptures forbidding Jewish occupation of the Holy Land in unbelief include: Lev. 18:28, 26:27-46; Num. 14:23; Deut. 4:26-27, 6:18, 7:12, 29:28; 28:21, 25, 37, 41, 56-64, Deut. 30; Ezek. 13:9; Jer. 7:15, 29:13-14

Also, read the part in the New Testament where Jesus says, since they didn't know the time of their visitation, that the Temple would be destroyed, the people disbursed, not to come back until they recognize him as their savior.

That said, God does sometimes use even wicked people to accomplish his goals.

God used Cyrus to punish Israel, and had his prophet tell them the name of Cyrus many years before it actually happened.

God has it all under control.

reply to post by gem_man


I'm far more concerned about the Muslims who think Allah gave them the whole world to rule by force. There are not enough Jews in that tiny, tiny little bit of land to worry about. Don't obsess with a Gnat flitting about your head, while ignoring the Tiger crouched just behind you ready to pounce.

Every Jew I've ever known well enough to ask, has no desire to live there. My current business partner said "those people are crazy". If you label them all, we know what that makes you. If you don't also worry about the radical Islamists, we also know what that means.

Why not just simply say, radicals are dangerous to everyone and leave it at that instead of engaging in in your face bigotry by attacking all Jews based on your own radicalism?

Why do you take these trips to Israel if you hate them so much? If you have that kind of money and mobility, you can live where you want? It's not the made up Palestinians land either and remember, the Dome of the Rock is built on top of two Jewish Temples that predate Islam by far longer than it has existed if you wish to be precise. I find it interesting that over the centuries the Jihadists have tried to erase the former occupants history. Don't you?

Islamic, Muslim, Christian, Jew it does not matter. The radicals from all of them are bad people. It's insane how often one radical will call another radical out considering all radicals are patently wrong and dangerous to the world.

reply to post by IAMIAM


This. Just this.

______________________________________________________________

I normally try to avoid these Israel topics like the plague... because as a Catholic, I try to love everyone, regardless. And whenever I get myself involved in the debate I usually end up getting so passionately heated by people using God as a reference. No one can say with certainty that "God wants this..." or "God wants that...". Even with love. Sure, we're supposed to love everyone, even our enemies. But there is also such a thing as righteous hatred. Supposidly, just as we're expected to love the good, we're expected to have righteous hatred for that which is evil. The main problem people have with this... is that good and evil are subjective concepts (but then again, some people argue that they are objective... no conclusions can be made of this...)


And as for Genesis being used as a basis for the Jewish people's claim in the holy land... no fictional work can logically do that. And when I say "fictional"... I mean it relatively. At the moment I'm taking a graduate level class on the book of Genesis and it is essentially just a collection of legends. Not to say that the legends weren't originally based on factual information... but most scholars (for one example see Van Seter) view Genesis as a piece written/compiled during/after the Babylonian exile by the Y, E, and P authors/sources (Yahwist, Elohist, and Priestly) using Mesopotamian and Greek styles. And similar to the 'historical' works written by the Greeks, Genesis is also an allegory in a sense. I mean, think about the whole... "migrating founding hero" theme in Greek works compared to Abraham.

So yeah... Genesis is a historical document... but it's historical in the sense that it uses allegorical legends to depict a history. Some other scholars argue that since Genesis was possibly written/compiled after the exile... it's possible that it was written to help legitimize the claim that the Jews have in Canaan (in the past - nothing to do with modernity), but I don't know nearly enough information to call that fact.


I don't claim that any of the above information on Genesis has any baring on the political problems of today. I just figured I'd throw it out there... especially since we just discussed the compilation of Genesis from a redactive perspective in class today. I'm glad I was paying attention while I was chewing on the ice left in my iced coffee cup. xP

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot

You say there is no God so where did you come from look at yourself in the mirror you had parents. They had parents it always goes back to 2 people

Theres a passage in the beginning of the Bible that trumps all the books that came after. In the beginning God created man and gave unto him ... read it understand it. If you believe the Torah bible then you must believe god created man and gave mankind the Earth and all its resources. Everything else is just exclusionary bullshxt.
Those who would set themselves above their fellow man show their true nature. Love is all that matters in the end.
I love all my fellow man even if they are to ignorant to see this path themselves.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. Let hate consume your heart and you will miss the true magic that courses through the very fabric of reality it is in the stones the air and the people it is masked be the ego yet even that can not overcome the truth.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot


SIGH!!! page one and it's starting to boil over

first re the "myth" used to justify the genocide against the tribes in the USA

Manifest_Destiny was the 19th century American belief that the United States (often, as Horsman (1981) notes, in the ethnically specific form of the "Anglo-Saxon race") was destined to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic Seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico; the concept was denounced by Whigs, and fell into disuse after the mid-19th century. Advocates of Manifest Destiny believed that expansion was not only wise but that it was readily apparent (manifest) and inexorable (destiny). The concept of American expansion is much older, but John L. O'Sullivan coined the exact term "Manifest Destiny" in the July/August 1845 issue of the United States Magazine and Democratic Review in an article titled "Annexation".

promises-to-Abraham

re the Jews claim there is more than one version i can't recall the details at the moment but the claim of "from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates is associated with the Monarchists who inserted it in the bible, the original was all the land Abraham could see from a mount, then it was all of Canaan, followed by the Egypt to Euphrates

to the degree that the bible has been edited it can be shown that the zionist claim is highly questionable if not outright false, the product of filthy politics by the monarchical faction.

reply to post by gem_man


An error:

Eastern European Jews are converts from the line of Japheth NOT Abraham which excludes them from the covenant.

No convert is excluded. You might want to go over Exodus in the Torah. Thousands of Egyptians were adopted into the House of Israel. The Egyptians were from the line of Ham.

Israel isn't a race. There isn't any racial hygiene like the rassenhygiene of the Nazis.

Israel is a tribal entity and gentiles can become members of the House of Israel.

reply to post by bluemirage5

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by starchild10

 

There is no such thing as "settlers" in Israel, they are indeed CITIZENS of Israel who should reside any where they see fit to build their homes.

As for your last comment.......

tell that to the last 2 remaining children of the parents and 3 little siblings who were brutally stabbed to death just recently!!!

well now, you keep drinking that Kosher-flavored Kool-aid.
you were not there as a witness, so basically you are just repeating the party line.

since it seems to be on i would like to quote myself from another couple of threads so where i'm coming from is clear:

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by eMachine

 

YES!!!

I came to similar conclusions a long time ago when i found out, as a child that my family on my paternal grandmother's line where Sephardim from Spain. When they came to the new world they were not allowed to get off the boat unless they converted to roman catholicism. [which is why I was raised catholic of course].

the family name is quite interesting being Velazquez (from belas=crow or raven;and we've all heard about jews being plague crows)

there were 2 things that leaped out from the bible KJV

what could possibly have been 1st case of lese majeste: the assasination of the king of Moab by Ehud the 3rd Judge of Israel. [ a mortal killed a god and not a case of another god showing up and killing a lesser or false god]

the letter of the Samaritans To King Artaxerxes in the book of Ezra:

9 Rehum the commanding officer and Shimshai the secretary, together with the rest of their associates—the judges, officials and administrators over the people from Persia, Uruk and Babylon, the Elamites of Susa, 10 and the other people whom the great and honorable Ashurbanipal deported and settled in the city of Samaria and elsewhere in Trans-Euphrates.

11 (This is a copy of the letter they sent him.)

To King Artaxerxes,

From your servants in Trans-Euphrates:

12 The king should know that the people who came up to us from you have gone to Jerusalem and are rebuilding that rebellious and wicked city. They are restoring the walls and repairing the foundations.

13 Furthermore, the king should know that if this city is built and its walls are restored, no more taxes, tribute or duty will be paid, and eventually the royal revenues will suffer.[e] 14 Now since we are under obligation to the palace and it is not proper for us to see the king dishonored, we are sending this message to inform the king, 15 so that a search may be made in the archives of your predecessors. In these records you will find that this city is a rebellious city, troublesome to kings and provinces, a place with a long history of sedition. That is why this city was destroyed. 16 We inform the king that if this city is built and its walls are restored, you will be left with nothing in Trans-Euphrates.


the Jews were the 1st Anarchists & proved that such a system can work.
And that's why "everybody hates the Jews"

any body who wants to conquer the world is going to have to go through that part of the world
the zio-nazis goal is to keep the "real Jews from becoming a stumbling stone & keep the hatred of Jews burning on high.

Shalom!

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by KJV1611

 

... zionism is merely another fruit of the same poisonous tree that produced the nazis: ethnic nationalism

zionism's ultimate goal is the complete and total extermination of the people who destroyed the myth of the god-king via the 1st regicide and who proved the validity of Anarchy as a political paradigm for 400 years, the Jews.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

in modern times the Haitians were the first new-worlders who threw off the yoke, and have been made to pay for it since then, which makes them the true Jews of the Caribbean.

the zionists are like Palpatine making themselves out as victims all while carrying out their evil schemes.
the jedi are the Prophets, and anaken represents the dupes,fellow travelers,shills and in general the pro-"israel" crowd of homo americanus ignoramus

like the classical psychopath, palpatine saw the jedi as an obstacle to his becoming emperor, therefore they were evil and "treasonous", the zionists perpetrate in your face atrocities and by claiming jewish supremacy generate hatred for the true children of israel

they are the consummate practitioners of the philosophy of the proto-nazi Louis Veuillot :

“When I am the weaker, I ask you for my freedom, because that is your principle; but when I am the stronger, I take away your freedom, because that is my principle”

reply to post by gem_man


ummm sorry, to correct you but the Romans called it Judea

the name Palestine is derived from the name Aelia Palestina which was the name they changed it to after 70 C.E.


correction: a previous poster pointed out that it was Syria Palaestina
the Aelia is from Aelia Capitolina the name given to the city built over the ruins of Jerusalem.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot


i regret to inform you that he is calling you a pig
must be the zionist version of haram. :':

pay no heed to such foolishness

reply to post by bluemirage5

Israel = IS (Isis) / RA (ray of the sun) / EL (God) = LIFE

this is the sloppy etymologies that the Illuminati and other Occultists with agendas like to spread around, jumping from one babel of tongues to another as is convenient, making words mean what they want.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

reply to post by IAMIAM


Alas, brother, some are incapable of Grokking and respond to life in this world with organs other than those meant for thought.

i see we both dislike improper etymologies as well.



"Thou art God."

Is it just me or is religion the dumbest invention ever that's robbed people of their true freedom?????

reply to post by Blaine91555


Gem Man does'nt take regular trips to Israel at all, he's pulling your bloody leg; he can't even remember the names of the Rabbis he alleges he's had conversations with and his mate ran like hell when I called her out over her supposed trips to Gaza as well.

This whole thread was started because Gem Man lost an argument on another thread so he started this one up hoping for a land slide victory....of which he's not going to get.

If you anti semites really hate us as much as you allege....you might as well turn off your PC and throw it to the bin. Without Israeli technology inside your software, your PC would'nt work! Come on, show us you have strong principals and live by them.

Now stop obsessing over us, we are here to stay...we are going no where...get used to it!

Originally posted by youthsavior
Is it just me or is religion the dumbest invention ever that's robbed people of their true freedom?????

Saved me. Taught me how to care about others and my religion teaches only peace and love. I'm a Christian. I am imperfect though and it helps keep me together. It's impossible to explain to another. For some reason people hate us for loving them.

I think you are confusing fake Christians who did or do bad things pretending to be Christian with the real Christians.

As to the other Faiths, I assume people are picking out examples of bad or false members actions and assigning those to the true members. There are all kinds of bigoted people and I hate to keep using that term, but it is the best descriptive. If A Christian does wrong, they blame ALL Christians. Sad but predictable. We are a flawed species.

reply to post by bluemirage5


No sense in getting to riled up. You can't change a Hater on an Internet Forum. Like I said, it's the radicals that are the problem, not any Religion.

Why I'm even posting is insane. I fall for it now and then due to weakness I admit. I've never cared about a persons religion. I just care about the persons character. Being Bigoted against any Faith just means the person is not of reasonable sensitivities and you avoid them. There is good and bad in all Faith's. Sadly lot's of fakes also.

This should clear up any misunderstandings:

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by shroudnews77


I assume the 2 parents you speak of are the fictitious adam and eve?
If that were the case we would be a race of deformed retards due to all
The inbreeding required to achieve any kind of population. God didn't create
Man... Man created god. Period