To All Jews Who Are Under The Mistaken Belief That God Gave Them The Land Of Israel To The Exclusion

reply to post by bluemirage5

Disinformation Tactics

Tactic 2. Introducing CounterProductive Emotional Arguements and Immaturity

Well, this tactic i've seen ALOT here. Pretty self explanatory. If a conversation is discussing something quite relevant and quite true and a disinformation agent would like it to be stopped this is very effective.

Not any discussion can simply be 'stopped'. However, someone can always come in and 'start' a 'fight'. Name calling, aggressive wording, these and other methods are used to emotionally agitate those discussing the truth. It is done in such a way to make sure everyone is so agitated and off topic that no longer the truth can be discussed clearly.

Blue mirage. Intentionally or not you are doing the above. If you have an argument it should relate to the biblical base for Israel, and if they indeed have a genetic history linking the people back to Abraham.

Originally posted by gem_man
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Well Lemon Fresh, The covenat is set by God Himself in chapter 24 of Genesis. The land is given to the seed or offspring of Abraham. The point is not whether or not anyone believes in the bible but that the Jews believe it was given solely to Jews. That of course is completely wrong as evidenced by C. 24 of Genesis. Whatever is said afterwards is said by men not God. Do a little reading of Genesis and you will gain some understanding.

I know my Bible well, thank you.


Lets read it together, shall we?

Genesis 15:18 - On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abraham, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates."

Yes, you are correct that God gave the seed of Abraham the land. It's exact borders are even defined.

But you fail to take into account the rest of the Torah.





Genesis 17:19-22 - Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation, but my covenant I will establish with Issac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.





Genesis 16:12 - "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell beside all of his brethren. "





Genesis 34:1-15 - The Lord said to Moses, "Command the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance will have these boundaries:

Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary will start from the end of the Salt Sea, cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kedesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the sea.

Your western boundary will be the coast of the Great Sea. This will be your boundary on the west.

For your northern boundary, run a line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad, continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary to the north.

For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham. The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Kinnereth. Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Salt Sea."

"This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side."



Deuteronomy 34:1-4 - Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land - from Gilead to Dan, all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, the Negev and whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. Then the Lord said to him, "This is the land I promised an oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."




It clearly states that Israel (a descendant of Isaac) was given the land (more or less what they have now), and Ishmael was given the rest of the land., which would be from the Jordan to the Euphrates.

This is further evidenced in the Quran:

Sura 5:20-21 - Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people. "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by gem_man

 

I said earlier, I would had debated you on your topic and given you the real facts but you down right told porkies in the first sentence of your original thread

WTF are "porkies"??? Perhaps you should use language suitable for an adult conversation.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot


It's an Australian word used for somebody who is knowingly and intentionally being dishonest.

I've called them on it

reply to post by IAMIAM


My brother and friendness.......

Perhaps you want to look in to this?

Israel = IS (Isis) / RA (ray of the sun) / EL (God) = LIFE

Those who go against Israel will suffer the consequences; not the other way round

The inheritance of Israel goes like this.....Avraham to Issac to Jacob (Israel) to Ephraim

Kinda a gives it a new twist....

can prove me wrong?

Originally posted by gem_man
Since I travel to Israel frequently on business I have had many opportunities to speak with Rabbis and less devout Jews on many issues including the historical ownership of the land of Israel. I have been told many times that Israel, including "Greater Israel" (The land from the Nile to the Euphrates) has been allocated to the Jews by God. It is their passionate belief.

This belief is the reason that the government of Israel sends settlers into the West Bank to establish settlements. It is the reason so many non Jews have been forced into exile as refugees, displaced from homes and land their families have occupied for many generations.

So is this the true covenant with God? That Jews have a biblical right to this land to the exclusion of others? Well, lets take a closer look at this. In fact, Genesis, chapter 24 (where the covenant is established) certainly does NOT give anything to Jews. Nothing! The covenant is with the OFFSPRING of Abraham. It has absolutely nothing to do with the a religion. Now, the offspring of Abraham includes some people who happen to practice the jewish religion but also some who have chosen Islam or Christianity as their religion of choice.

Eastern European Jews are converts from the line of Japheth NOT Abraham which excludes them from the covenant. Shepardic Jews are most certainly from blood of Abraham and share in the covenant. Arabs are from the blood of Abraham and also share in the covenant.

There has been some genetic investigation into "Jewishness" with the "Cohen gene" which may suggest descent from a jew but it has nothing to do with the genetic line of Abraham.as all Jews do not have descent. 2-3000 years ago conversion to Judiaism was not uncommon.

Whats the point? Well, it seems to me if one wants to cry from the mountains that God gave them this land they should be sure they in fact do have a biblical right to it. To displace an Arab would be an affront to both God and Abraham as Arab descent from the blood of Abraham is certain.

edit on 30-3-2011 by gem_man because: spelling

When Abraham questioned God about his son Ishmael, God said that He would bless him, but that in Isaac, shall your seed be called. Isaac had Jacob, who's name became Israel, who's descendents were promised the land of Abraham, not the Ishmaelites. So, they have the right to possess the land.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

My brother and friendness.......

Perhaps you want to look in to this?

Israel = IS (Isis) / RA (ray of the sun) / EL (God) = LIFE

This is a word game made possible ONLY by the use of the english translation of the Hebrew word שראל
.

I do not play such games my friend. That is shoe horning to fit a preconceived idea.

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Those who go against Israel will suffer the consequences; not the other way round

The inheritance of Israel goes like this.....Avraham to Issac to Jacob (Israel) to Ephraim

Kinda a gives it a new twist....

can prove me wrong?

I do not prove anyone wrong my friend. That is not what I am here to do. I say what is truth, and it is God who will prove my words.

All I ever ask, is for all to watch.

Be ever watchful.



With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


It's not a game....

any nation who judges Israel and who raises their sword against Israel will fear God in all His might!

Jews eat christian babies

reply to post by lokdog


Any thoughts on the thread?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by gem_man
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Well Lemon Fresh, The covenat is set by God Himself in chapter 24 of Genesis. The land is given to the seed or offspring of Abraham. The point is not whether or not anyone believes in the bible but that the Jews believe it was given solely to Jews. That of course is completely wrong as evidenced by C. 24 of Genesis. Whatever is said afterwards is said by men not God. Do a little reading of Genesis and you will gain some understanding.

I know my Bible well, thank you.


Lets read it together, shall we?

Genesis 15:18 - On that day Yahweh made a covenant with Abraham, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates."

Yes, you are correct that God gave the seed of Abraham the land. It's exact borders are even defined.

But you fail to take into account the rest of the Torah.





Genesis 17:19-22 - Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation, but my covenant I will establish with Issac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.





Genesis 16:12 - "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell beside all of his brethren. "





Genesis 34:1-15 - The Lord said to Moses, "Command the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance will have these boundaries:

Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary will start from the end of the Salt Sea, cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kedesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the sea.

Your western boundary will be the coast of the Great Sea. This will be your boundary on the west.

For your northern boundary, run a line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad, continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary to the north.

For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham. The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Kinnereth. Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Salt Sea."

"This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side."



Deuteronomy 34:1-4 - Then Moses climbed Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho. There the Lord showed him the whole land - from Gilead to Dan, all of Naphtali, the territory of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, the Negev and whole region from the Valley of Jericho, the City of Palms, as far as Zoar. Then the Lord said to him, "This is the land I promised an oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, 'I will give it to your descendants.' I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it."




It clearly states that Israel (a descendant of Isaac) was given the land (more or less what they have now), and Ishmael was given the rest of the land., which would be from the Jordan to the Euphrates.

This is further evidenced in the Quran:

Sura 5:20-21 - Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people. "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

Slam Dunk! You DO know your Scripture brother.

I know the rules say you are supposed to contribute something to the argument, but I don't feel like typing it all over again, so I'll just link to the thread I posted in on this subject this morning.

My first post
My second post

I guess I just don't understand the mentality of someone who loses an argument and goes to start another thread on the exact same subject. The arguments don't change; they're just like God's Word that way. Do they expect the results to be different some how?

Originally posted by Le Colonel
i was raised in religious home, and now i am more spiritual than religious. How can GOD pick one set of people over another. A loving GOD would not do this. Only an Alien Overseer would pick and choose.

Just my thought. I believe in GOD but not gods, or a god. GOD does not pick one human over another. I just dont think that GOD works that way. It doesnt feel right.

Israel is a desert land. There is really not much there. To this day there is nothing of value there.

edit on 30-3-2011 by Le Colonel because: (no reason given)

Well, by the time the new testament was written the true nature of God is being stated.
Romans:10-11
10-But , Glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to Jew first and also to the Gentile:
11-For there is no respect of persons with God.
Saying God doesnot discriminate no matter who you are.

reply to post by bluemirage5


Alright, you've had plenty of time to make bold accusations and racist remarks, now it's time for facts. Keep your racist crap to yourself or be reported, ok?




Palestine

The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947 as UN Resolution (GA 181). The plan for "partition with economic union" divided the land into several cantons. Both the Jewish state and the Arab state had 3 cantons each that touched each other south of Nazareth and near Gaza. The borders of this plan are shown in the map below. This jigsaw puzzle would have been difficult to implement for friendly populations, and was impossible to implement given the hostility between Arabs and Jews.

Underlines added for me emphasis. So why, oh wise knowing one, would the UN general assemble have a plan for petitioning Palestine if it didn't exist? See what you've done is great, you spent several posts accusing the OP of essentially being antisemitic, with no basis in fact to make that claim, then you go and start spouting racist crap.

there are no settlers? Tell that to the government of Israel, seriously, I honestly don't know how you were able to click submit.

there are no Palestinians? that's just absurd, the nazis were working to forcibly immigrate European jews to Palestine. england and the Us proposed a plan which was then adopted by a few countries and ISrael was born. Yes, it was born in the same fashion that people like you are crying over Palestine.

I really don't give a crap what the bible or any other religious text has to say, the facts remain, nothing, NOTHING, gives you the right to bulldoze peoples homes and illegally settle there, expanding your never actually acknowledged borders.

But yes, some random half literate guy on ATS knows more about Gaza than the people there, oh, like the UN and red cross and various other organizations desperately trying to get aid in.

Here's an obviously antisemitic report from 2008 about gaza:

More than 80% of population rely on humanitarian aid Unemployment about 40% No running water for 25-30% of Gazans

More than 1.1 million Gazans are dependent on food aid and of 110,000 workers previously employed in the private sector, 75,000 have now lost their jobs, the report says. "Unless the blockade ends now, it will be impossible to pull Gaza back from the brink of this disaster and any hopes for peace in the region will be dashed," said Geoffrey Dennis, of Care International UK.

source

And lets put this into context shall we?

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,452 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000

...

Chart showing that 6 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.

1,084 Israelis and at least 6,430 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

...

9,226 Israelis and 45,041 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

..

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

..

Chart showing that Israel is holding over 7000 Palestinians prisoner.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,935 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

..

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

..

The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.5% and 40% in Gaza.

..

Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

source

but hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of your racism, clearly I am antisemitic, the UN is, the WHO is, the Red cross is, the US, Canada, uk, and every other nation on earth is, the facts are, the truth is, the air is, the water is.

Just stop, forget the biblical claims for one second and think about this:

Tomorrow Israel lays a biblical claim to half of the united states, a new text shows that God indeed gave them that land. So they show up, build a giant cement wall, and start bulldozing your homes, in some cases with people still inside, to build their settlements on their god given land.

Are you seriously going to tell me you would just shrug and deal with it?

You are the liar sir, every single character you type shows it.

reply to post by gem_man


Looks like your thread kinda got mooted

I know what, start another thread?

Lets name it "I got dooped"

I found a video I thought you might like:

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by JustSomeIdiot
reply to post by gem_man

 

All very interesting, but one thing - there is no God and across the world there are many, many nations who have been forced from their old homelands throughout recorded history. So what? What makes this spot so special? What makes any of them so special?

The first step of acknowledging that you have a problem is admitting it and according to your own chosen name I see that you have done that. I hope you get the help you need.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


A beg your pardon? How dare you come on in here and accuse me of racism then threaten to report me!

I will say it again and I will keep saying it....."there are NO palestinians in Israel, there is no "palestine" any where on the world's modern maps! It does NOT exist!!!! "Palestine" ceased to exist on the 14th May 1948. The Arabs who refused to become part of Israeli only started identifying themselves as "palestinians" AFTER the Six Day War in 1967. They are not a unique people with a unique culture and have no independant state. This is fact whether you accept it or not. Now until that changes, the truth of the matter remains as it does in it's present form. AGAIN, "palestine" does NOT exist.

Israel's population is made up of Israelis, Arabs, and foreigners.

I don't care what Netanyahu says.....I never voted for him.

There are NO such a thing as "settlers" among Israel's citizens. They ARE citizens of Eretz Yisrael who can go park their butts anywhere in Israel (that includes Sumeria and Judea) as they please and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Now if you have a problem with that; go write to somebody who cares.

You better go back to page 2 and tell me the Gazans don't have running water.....my guess is you still believe the Gazans are starving too?

reply to post by bluemirage5

there are NO palestinians in Israel

But, (and within the wording of the Balfour declaration) since Israel is built in Palestine, surely that must make Israeli's Palestinian Too....Just as a Texan, Californian etc are American ?

And like Germans, Italians, French etc are Europeans...

reply to post by ken10


No, "palestine" ceased to exist back on 14 May 1948 then it become Eretz Yisrael.

There are Israeli Arabs; and then there are Arabs not part of Israel but a stateless people because they chose it to be so. Every the chance the Arabs got, they refused any peace deal with Israel and until they make peace, they will NEVER have their own independant state and will remain as they do now.

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by bluemirage5

 

there are NO palestinians in Israel

But, (and within the wording of the Balfour declaration) since Israel is built in Palestine, surely that must make Israeli's Palestinian Too....Just as a Texan, Californian etc are American ?

And like Germans, Italians, French etc are Europeans...

edit on 30-3-2011 by ken10 because: to add extra info

The Romans named the land “Palestine” , or to be exact “Provincia Syria Palestina”.
Palestine is not an Arabic word, and never was.
Everyone living in that land prior to 1948 was called a Palestinian. Even Golda Meir the PM of Israel had a Palestinian ID.
"Palestinians" didn't not start identify themselves as such until 1967. It's the biggest lie ever told in the 20th century, and with one purpse in mind.
www.palestinefacts.org...
Look at my very first post on ATS on that exact subject.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot


Hi JustSoneIdiot,

Just reading though and "porkies" is actually cockney - porky pies = lies.