Victory in Britain!! Prime Minister says multiculturalism has failed

reply to post by Haydn_17


I am responding to your previous post. Do youhave an attention span? Anyway you sought to define Britishness via North Korea. That is like defining Sex via a vacuum.

reply to post by Haydn_17


Doesn't answer my question. What is it to be 'British'? You put ten people in a room and they'll all come up with different answers as it's not clearly defined at all. Don't get me wrong. This is a positive step to neutering Islamic fundamentalism but defining what being 'British' is will be quite a tremendous task for D.C. and co to undertake.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Haydn_17

 

Doesn't answer my question. What is it to be 'British'? You put ten people in a room and they'll all come up with different answers as it's not clearly defined at all. Don't get me wrong. This is a positive step to neutering Islamic fundamentalism but defining what being 'British' is will be quite a tremendous task for D.C. and co to undertake.

Why are you at it as well?

It's not only Islam that breeds fundamentalism. In fact there are 'fundamentals' in every religion. It means to take their religious scriptures at face value, but not necessarily 'literalists' who believe every word is as should be and not necessarily illustrative.

What we should be discussing prehaps is 'extremism' or 'fanaticalism', but this then opens a whole new chasm of divides as one could just as easily be a political extremist, an ideological fanatic and soon.

What is the EDL?
What are the IRA? (Or the Real IRA)

The real concern is in the blinkered view of Islam and that it is only Islam that harbours anti-nationalist thought - oh dear, I said it. Nationalsm. Is that not what Cameron is on about? In which case should we not look to eject the Welsh and Scottish assemblies from 'Britain'? They clearly have a different set of nationalistic views.

So, are we discussing Islam, as Cameron suggests? Or is it wider... the fact that Cameron mentioned no other religions, creeds, nationalities or such tells me the answer and should be obvious to you.

reply to post by Haydn_17


Dude, i'm a british citizen from birth and i DONT VOTE, why? Because all i'm promoting is lies, deciet and creating a rich v poor divide by voting...so i'd rather not be part of it anymore.

reply to post by Pr0t0


First things first. The EDL are a bunch of numptees who are disenfranchised with the way things are but are too ignorant to express it properly. The IRA decommissioned their weapons and the Real IRA are a fringe group who can't let go of the past and will inevitably be consumed by it. So let's not pretend that these groups are a relevent force compared to the numptees who radicalise young Muslims who are angry (rightfully so?) about western powers invading Iraq and Afghanistan on false pretences.

reply to post by bowtomonkey


There was a lot to touch on on your post.

Do you even know what the Crusades were? There are two or more sides that fight in a war. I wasn't exactly supporting any single side. I made a comparison based on an observation. England versus Islam. The western world versus Islam. Democracy versus Islam.

Is the US and its allies (that includes Britain) not involved with wars in the middle east against Islamic extremists? Do they not condemn Islamic extremism? Is there not rampant western propaganda and fear tactics oriented in actively seeking to give Islam a bad name, and give to Islam the face of Osama Bin Laden and terrorism? Which for all intents and purposes is what happened with Communism. Islam is the new communism.

Is the religion of Islam not actively engaged in out of control conflicts with the western world? Do pro-Islamic groups not condemn the US and it's allies? Do Islamic extremists not strap explosives to themselves and blow places up all willy-nilly like life is going out of fashion? Are groups like Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, the Iranian regime, and the Islamic Brotherhood all not groups who promote Islamic ideals, practice the Islamic faith, condemn the western world, and are these groups not touted as extremists and even terrorist groups?

How exactly does my comment implying the aforementioned reality suddenly make it extremist? I was always told that an extremist was someone who blew himself or herself up because of their religious beliefs. Did you really just compare my simple comment to that??

Would it be fair for me to say that your post was extremist because it essentially demonizes a group of people based upon their beliefs and supports the implication that because of their beliefs, these people aren't allowed to practice their freedom of expression? Typically in a democratic country (forgive me if I'm mistaken that Britain doesn't practice democracy) where freedom is allowed, that freedom generally isn't restricted to the point that says "hey, either you conform to our ways or we'll evict you!"

Where I live, which happens to be the United States, we don't practice a form of restricted freedom. And for better or worse (in this case for worse) people are allowed to hate their country and express their hate of said country. They are allowed to practice their religion, condemn other religions, etc, etc. Yes, I understand there is more to this issue than that, but it is a delicate situation and having the figurehead of the country overtly chain those who are different than the majority by basically saying that they are going to put an end to multiculturalism, that isn't going to go over well.

The perspective that I'm trying to take at the moment looks at the issue from the other side. What are the people on the opposing side of the issue going to say? What will these people do, and what will Britain do in response? Now tell me these aren't the makings of a potential conflict.

But hey, if that's what people want, more power to them!

PS: Anybody can slap the label of extremism to something they really don't understand or take the time to understand and make it look bad. Just a little side comment.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Haydn_17

 

Doesn't answer my question. What is it to be 'British'? You put ten people in a room and they'll all come up with different answers as it's not clearly defined at all. Don't get me wrong.

Cameron defined British values in his speech: freedom of speech, equal rights and; the rule of law.

British values are not sharia law, arranged marriages and blowing people up on the underground in suicide attacks.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Pr0t0

 

First things first. The EDL are a bunch of numptees who are disenfranchised with the way things are but are too ignorant to express it properly.

Agreed. I once asked an EDL leader what he thought of Zionism and the Israeli occupation. He replied "isn't Zionism what Bob Marley was into?". He'd heard the track 'Iron, Lion, Zion'. Doh.

The IRA decommissioned their weapons and the Real IRA are a fringe group who can't let go of the past and will inevitably be consumed by it.

Not sure I share the enthusiasm. The IRA are now very much at the centre of Irish politics but to say they have decommissioned their weapons because we were shown a room full of machine guns and knives on the BBC report (or similar) does not mean this is true. The Real IRA are a 'dissident' branch of the IRA. Basically, the same guys who planted the bombs, with different leaders who are still willing to promote that sort of atrocity.

So let's not pretend that these groups are a relevent force compared to the numptees who radicalise young Muslims who are angry (rightfully so?) about western powers invading Iraq and Afghanistan on false pretences.

Compare the numbers murdered by the IRA in the Eighties and Nineties and the shootings/bombings in Ireland in the Naughties with the total number of attacks by so-called Muslim Extremeists and you will soon see that in comparison you should be more concerned by the IRA (or, Real IRA) than any 'fundamentalist'. Mind you, in the same vein, British binge drinkers are more dangerous than the lot of them.

No, we shouldn't be in Afghan or Iraq. I think we agree, but I'm not too sure

Originally posted by Pr0t0
I once asked an EDL leader what he thought of Zionism and the Israeli occupation. He replied "isn't Zionism what Bob Marley was into?". He'd heard the track 'Iron, Lion, Zion'. Doh.

If he had said that to me, it would have been pretty clear to me that he was being sarcastic and was avoiding answering the question.

Did that really go over your head?

variety is the spice of life
multiculturalism is great .
peace to you all sirs

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Pr0t0
I once asked an EDL leader what he thought of Zionism and the Israeli occupation. He replied "isn't Zionism what Bob Marley was into?". He'd heard the track 'Iron, Lion, Zion'. Doh.

If he had said that to me, it would have been pretty clear to me that he was being sarcastic and was avoiding answering the question.

Did that really go over your head?

No. The guy was clueless. He had no idea what I was talking about. Do you really think I'm the kind of person who would let something like that go 'over my head'?

It was at a relaxed BBQ last summer, he had no reason to avoid the question he was simply not too bright, and yes he is the leader of a geographic branch of the EDL - obviously I'm not telling you where and no it isn;t inmy area, either take it or leave it. He wanted to discuss politics but had no idea about the Turkish aid flotilla massacre, amongst many other current events, so I chose to switch the topic to the football. Basically his only stance was that Sharia law was bad and he didn't want to see an Islamic takeover - not that he knew anything about Islam, he just knew he didn't want it in 'his country'.

Being that you took such offense, I take it you're a member of the EDL yourself?

This is a lot of nonsense. Sure, some Muslims keep away from the mainstream of society in the UK. But, as many have pointed out, so do many Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, EDL members who keep away from what they're scared of, etc etc...

Around my way, plenty of young Muslims work hard raising money for Islamic Relief and similar charities; they do crazy things like parachute jumps and host dinners and post this on facebook and twitter and work hard to help people. They don't just help people in the Muslim world - they help in Haiti and in the UK. They speak English, have degrees from our universities and work in our schools and hospitals. They listen to hip hop and dubstep and watch the X Factor. Oh yeah, they speak Urdu and go to mosque, and in public, some of the women wear hijab. OOOOH.

We all have to learn to get on, to make an effort with people, to welcome people, to smile and to talk. People is as people does. Treat 'em right, they'll do the same. It has to come from both sides. Cameron is an idiot. Saying that on the day the moronic EDL marched (yeah guys, Sharia law will be imposed on us here!) shows how stupid he is.

We ghettoised immigrants 50/60 years ago. We attack Muslim countries on demonstrably false pretences.

Look uponn the state of your home, before you sling mud at others.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Pr0t0

 

First things first. The EDL are a bunch of numptees who are disenfranchised with the way things are but are too ignorant to express it properly.

Actually, they have done a great job of creating media coverage on the issue of Islamic extremism.

While the press coverage they generate is almost invariably negative, a look at the readers' comments on on-line newspapers show that the public is solidly behind their apprehension about Islamic extremism.

Even Guardian readers have woken up to the threat of Islamic extremism and disagree with the opinions fed to them by well meaning but sadly out of touch journalists.

Cameron, to his credit, has sensed this sea change in the attitude of the British public to Islam and his speech yesterday reflects the way the vast majority of the British public feel.

Originally posted by Pr0t0

No. The guy was clueless. He had no idea what I was talking about. Do you really think I'm the kind of person who would let something like that go 'over my head'?

Being that you took such offense, I take it you're a member of the EDL yourself?

I certainly support their objectives - opposition of Islamic extremism.

Don't you?

reply to post by ollncasino


How are 'the public' behind them.

Am I no longer a member of the British public? Most of my friends are not behind them.

The majority of EDL members that I have met, and that's a fair few, are nothing more than thugs and hooligans who drink on the protest marches and chant racist slogans, with their favourite slogan being 'go home'!

As far as I can tell all the EDL promote is racism, aggression and binge drinking. But hey, that's all the best of British isn't it?

How can you support something that most of the people involved know nothing about? It's just a mob mentality and a reason to have a pi$$ up and brawl now that football stadiums are better policed.

Originally posted by Pr0t0
The majority of EDL members that I have met, and that's a fair few, are nothing more than thugs and hooligans who drink on the protest marches and chant racist slogans, with their favourite slogan being 'go home'!

Don't you want the Islamic extremists to leave as well?

Originally posted by Pr0t0
As far as I can tell all the EDL promote is racism, aggression and binge drinking. But hey, that's all the best of British isn't it?

As much as the public school educated journalists keep on telling us that, the public just isn't buying it.

the thing is cameron is failing to see that even some britons dont uphold british values and even the values of the western world.
There are equal amounts of bad people in places up and down the UK, the reason there are so many that dont hold british values is because our government are constantly telling us what values to live by , but then they go and do something completely wrong , like expense claims for example. If our government are openly caught swindling us why the hell should anyone want to support them in the first place.

The problems for the UK extend further than immigration and multiculturalism, cameron is just picking one which generates alot of political questioning and public attention, makes it look like he is doing something.

Dr Martin luther king's dream is not shared by all unfortunately .

Wow, another fuel charged ranting forum thread with the usual attempts to take the issue places it does not need to go and support of the usual suspects.

What Cameron has done is simply something he has been pressured into, this isn't a sudden change of heart by him, he's simply playing to the people.

Is what he said right....You better believe it, its about time the majority of concerned people were heard.

We have being seeing for a very long time a build up of people who believe in contrary laws to ours trying to slowly but surely push them upon us and sadly succeeding in places they simply should have been laughed out. These extremists have been trying to change our culture, our laws, our way of life.

Don't trust me, ask them...

What shockingly disturbs me is the lump of supposed 'moderate Muslims that really should be jumping up and down saying how right Camerons statement was, instead they are bleating about it and there's my issue.

Moderate Muslims SHOULD be annoyed with these extremists, they are polluting their religion with man made laws and rules, taking the religion into a faith of bloodshed, if you believe a moderate then they should be screaming at these people to clear off but you see they are not. I'm as said before married into a Muslim family despite not being a Muslim or religious person from Northern Ireland initially. My inlaws are fantastic or so I thought, more on that later. 90% of my inlaws are hard working, very integrated peaceful people who say their prayers just like any other person of faith and shop in all sorts of places etc.

But in the last week a relative died, he from what I know of him was a nice guy, in the Muslim faith you normally have some sort of chosen person to arrange the funeral, this was done and all the families including my in-laws went to the burial only for all the women to be told to wait outside in the cars, they were not allowed to attend.

Shades of the old society coming though, so what we have are 3 versions of a supposed Muslim, the normal ones who you would be hard to tell what they were passing in the street, the moderate ones, these people swing between normals and extremist at the touch of a button, while preaching peace they will agree they want sharia here but only between themselves and then there's the rotten apple, the good old extremists, a bunch of people who believe in some of the most barbaric acts possible in todays world, they believe in the ultimate keeping down of women, they believe in removing the simple rights of any person in favour of total control.

Again, don't trust me, ask them, I have and I know my stuff.

Like it or not these very well funded and trained / mind washed extremist either flood to here or are home trained with the significant help of the Saudi government with a simple agenda where ever they go, to turn it into an Islamic state (well their version of one). Thats it, period...There's simply one goal..

Listen to Saudi TV, they say the same day in day out...

One of our real problems now are the flip flop moderates, you can have very little trust in them, whilst I'm sure there's many fine people in them unfortunately they are infiltrated by many who would support the extremists when it came time. These are the organisations that are being funded with tax payers money and very rightly SHOULD be vetted much better, that's why you hear them suddenly up in arms because they don't want to be vetted at all.

Are the EDL our saviours, please, don't make me laugh.

The EDL is a headless chicken, the young man at the head has zero understanding of Muslims of any type, he's surrounded by hordes of drunken people at times and ultra far right factions follow them around for the hope of causing trouble. If the EDL want to be taken seriously they need to ditch the trouble makers, have a more respectable front line and actually know how the Muslim religion works so they can see the real differences between a Muslim and an extremist (fake) Muslim.

The whole sad thing about this is that what Camerson said was correct but so late down the day its laughable and you simply know that all these measures he's talking about to make this a bonded country will never happen, all the checks on public funded Muslim groups will simply be dropped or over turned, nothing will change, we will still be harassed by Extremist thugs, we will still get to hear how they despise us, we will still get to watch victims in their own communities being punished under their vile Sharia while we turn a blind eye.

These Extremists need to be headed off at the pass and given the choice, go to a place that supports their ideals and have a wonder Sharia life (trust me, the Westerners will have a culture shock, no playing western during the day and playing hardline at the Mosque) or they should be told to be peaceful or be removed.

Many, are well beyond being peaceful nor willing to follow our laws, things like rape are just so much easier here...Fact.

Oh, just one last thing, this will be understood by by people who understand the extreme side and know to be true, the extremists believe that it's fine to lie to the kuffar people (a term for non believers but also used in a derogatory way as well) so to put them off their guard so that they can get close enough to strike and kill them.

Give that a little thought.....Its the truth...

reply to post by ollncasino


So what do you see every Friday and Saturday night in this country? Of course this is what the country is like, you don't have to look far for it. Every town is riddled with loutish behaviour.

If I thought there were many 'extremists' who wanted to murder in the name of Jihad, sure I'd want them to leave... on the same boat with the thuggish hooliganistic brutes of the EDL who I know for a fact exist. I'd like them to leave first. We might find that many of the 'extremeists' are merely a fiction of those journalists too.