Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

Originally posted by undo
i just think the employer who has unspoken rules on important social issues, that deter him from promoting someone, is doing himself and the rest of his employees, a disservice. if he knows he will not promote a woman who dresses that way, and yet doesn't have dress code guidelines, he can't expect his employees to be mind readers.

It's nothing to do with mind reading, when i entered work i didn't have someone tell me what to wear i just knew what was appropriate for work, do we really have to tell people? You know what if someone needs telling then i don't think they have the brain power needed for more difficult jobs. Oh and lets be clear, the OP knows what to wear she is simply refusing and that is a whole world of difference. She knows the consequences and is just angry about those consequences.

Oh and the employer isn't doing himself a disservice (interesting you used the male employer there and not simply any employer), he is looking out for his business, i can only imagine you haven't run your own otherwise your opinion would be rather different.The people with cleavage showing may very well do the job but they will struggle to be taken seriously by men AND women in a serious environment, like it or not but it's all down to how you are perceived. You can talk about projection all you like but there is a difference between projection and generally accepted societal rules.

For example if i dress like a homeless man then people will assume i'm homeless, this isn't them projecting anything it is simply that people generally accept what they see.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


i was referring to projecting the inability to think clearly while stimulated unto the object of stimulation. (sorta like the human women version of "the devil made me do it".. .eve did give me the apple and i had a nice big bite of it! it's all her fault, the temptress).

in a woman vs. woman case, it can have entirely different motivations, such as jealousy, religious mores or suspicion.

but in the case of a man, he may project onto her, how he feels when he sees her, concluding that other people will as well. (and he's probably right but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to blame the woman for being well endowed and dressing attractively. it is kinda ludicrous that a breasty woman has to play down her assets, while virtually no one else does, some to the point of actually getting surgery so that they can be taken seriously. i dunno if you're paying attention, but good grief charlie brown. that's so ridiculous.).

reply to post by undo


They can be taken seriously by covering up, it's not the fact they have breasts that is the problem it is choosing to display them in the workplace that is the issue. Why are you finding this tricky to understand? A man has to tuck his shirt in because otherwise he is perceived as scruffy and so people think he is going to be less meticulous in his work, likewise a woman who leaves her cleavage on show is perceived as more likely to use those assets to cover for her lack of ability and actually the OP's article proves it. The woman in the article says she only kept her job because of her breasts, well that is how showing cleavage is perceived even in modern times. You can't change the world, this is built in to pretty much everyone.

Now i can logically think outside this, breast size doesn't effect intelligence or ability however when i ran a business i had to think how it would be viewed to have a woman in my employ who was showing off her breasts in an office when i needed people to take her seriously. If i hired the woman who let it all hang out then not only would she not be taken seriously and that would effect my business but people may very well think i hired her because of her chest and that then reflects on my business practice. And as i mentioned before the women with cleavage showing were far more flirty in the interview and a good proportion tried to avoid difficult questions by flirting more, the women who were not showing cleavage were down to business.

You can bemoan the situation but it is as it is and i don't see a good reason for it to change.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


you read the article? covering up large breasts often does not help disguise them as large breasts. they kinda protrude .....out there....and some are very round, "big breasts like kasaba melons" - coming to america,



the issue is, that she was apparently so amply breasted that she knew she had been promoted because of them in the past, and wanted to end that and be hired because of her skill on the job, not her kasabas. so she went under the knife and had them reduced, for her own peace of mind. it should never have to get to that point in the first place. my gosh, they are just breasts. they are a natural feature of mammals the world over.

reply to post by undo


I read the article and she pointed out that women who exposed their breasts used them to get their way, also the point of this thread was that it could hurt your promotion chances in this day and age if you had cleavage on show so if you don't want to get promoted because of your breasts then by her own article it seems covering them is most definitely the way to go.

Times change and her article was about the 80's an era that was horribly chauvanistic, whee being a man was apparently something to be proud of, i never really understood why someone should be proud of whether they got a xx or xy. It's like being proud of winning a coin toss.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


yes, well it could also hurt your promotion chances if they still are obvious, even after you've dressed them down as much as possible, short of having them cut off or reduced, which has very little to do with the OP's opinion and more to do with the article she linked, which essentially outlined that women started getting them chopped, so they would not have to undergo the flood of accusations, gossip, suspicions, promotions or passing over of promotions, from everyone who happened to notice they had large breasts.

are they a curse? huh, are they?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Now, I like to showcase 'the girls' as much as I can, hey if you got it, flaunt it they say. However, depending on where you work, it may not be appropriate, and worse, CAN make those around you think you are all boobs and no brains.

I used to be partners in a local bar, I found that in that particular situation having your boobs forefront was definately a bonus, I made lots of contacts (not contact) and was taken seriously. But if I took that same look to this job, well, I most likely would have my bosses trying to sleep with me, make less money than anyone else here, and not be taken seriously.

I don't think it takes a degree for women to know when too much is too much, or how to dress appropriately for your job.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by snusfanatic

 

the issue is, others will project onto you, their unprofessional thoughts at seeing your attributes. this is the entire crux of the problem, which could be solved, if we just went back to teaching men how to exercise control over their biology with their intellect. right now, we're doing the opposite, as a culture.

What you suggest is unreasonable and oppressive to men. It's kind of like saying women should be able to control their menstrual cycles; mood swings, social isolation and physical distress should not be tolerated. How would you feel if a man were to suggest that?

If you look at history, men have made quite a few concessions to "even the playing field" for women. I am not talking about allowing women to vote or own a home. I am talking more about the social norms where women are shown more patience, tolerance and understanding and are given more leniency when making mistakes.

Your biggest mistake is in trying to alter the biological programming of men because you see it as a threat to your right to dress how you want. You can't change men any more than I can change women. The best we can do is show tolerance and understanding towards the opposite sex and accept there are major differences between us.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


i was just reading an article by LANE BRYANT (women's lingerie manufacturer) who had a problem with fox news and abc, refusing to air their bra commercial because the model was large breasted. it seems it's not considered as slutty, if you're smaller breasted, even if you're wearing nothing but underwear in the commercial.

notice the following quote "Of course, it wasn't really the shirt—it was the size of the woman's breasts that was deemed socially unacceptable. Big boobs: I don't have them. And good thing, too, because if I did, I'd have to dress myself with the expectation that others would view my anatomy as inherently obscene"

what this amounts to is people over reacting to mammary gland size. she wasn't at work, she was at a house party. and the commercial that was getting so much flack, it wasn't at work either. in fact, it was being aired during the same televised event as the victoria's secret commercial.

here's the article
www.washingtoncitypaper.com...

oh this is a doozy of a quote :

The lesson, ladies, is that great cleavage comes with great responsibility. People who shame women for wearing "too-revealing" clothes like to center their objections on women's clothing "choices," but make no mistake—this is not about what we choose. This is about the things we don't choose—having chests or butts or legs or necks or hair or any other part of our human bodies that others decide to project their particular sexual interests—and their slut-shaming—upon.

[...]

And because my breasts are smaller, less visible, less imposing than other women's breasts—because there's less boob there—I can feel free to wear the more revealing top without attracting claims of public obscenity. It seems that some women's bodies are just naturally sluttier than other women's bodies—and all women's bodies are naturally sluttier than men's bodies.

Like I said, women use their breasts to advance their career and/or position in life. The rare time that it doesnt work its called oppression. I feel no sympathy for anyone trying to 'game' the system even if its an attractive woman. This is exactly why these people dont respect you when you wear those low cut shirts because the person is smart enough to know exactly what you're trying to do even if you dont.

reply to post by undo


And that quote is utterly unfair because most people here are not saying cleavage should be banned in all places, only work and for very good reasons which have been explained to you multiple times and you seem unable to grasp. If people were simply projecting then they would want cleavage banned everywhere. That quote was playing the victim and she should be ashamed. All womens bodies are sluttier than mens? Yeah right ok well i don't believe that and she is an idiot for saying it.


The article is from the dailymail as well, typical garbage.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


did you follow the link to lane bryan't's website and read their article? is washiingtoncitypaper.com a daily mail website? also, the opening of the article revealed that it wasn't a work place environment issue either as the event was during a house party. it's true if you have large breasts you are seen as inherently obscene, especially when compared to less breasty women or men in general.

walk a mile in someone else' shoes.

reply to post by undo


Well i utterly disagree then, having large breasts does not mean you are considered as obscene, if you come into work with them bulging out of a top then yeah i will lose pretty much all respect for you but that's because you have chosen to dress inappropriately for the situation not simply because you have large breasts, this goes for small breasts as well, if you're wearing a top low enough to see the cleavage then my immediate thought is why are you doing that in a place of work?

Outside of work is a whole different story, feel free to push them up, cover them up, expose them to the world i really don't care.

Looking at the quote it is inherently dishonest because what they state is when someone genuinely does talk about clothing choices then that person is secretly lying and thinking something else. Theres an agenda with that article.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


are you a large breasted woman? if not, i'm going to suggest you probably are speaking from a lack of personal experience on this subject. i shared this thread with hubby to see what he thought about the entire issue and he agreed with other male posters in the thread, that men's biology is pretty much cut and dry. that a woman can seriously interfer with your job performance, just by wearing certain types of clothing (like mini skirts or what have you). i feel bad that it's that strong of a drive but would like to remind you that this means not only not wearing certain necklines, but also not wearing certain hemlines, not wearing form fitting clothes on any part of your anatomy, although large breasts seem to be the biggest area of complaint in this regard.

surely there's an alternative to covering women up in more and more fabric, till you don't know if they're in there or not, having been swallowed by their own clothing to cover their shame. and here i thought it was our hair that was supposed to do that (cover the shame, i mean).

ah well

reply to post by undo


Sorry but your husband doesn't speak for all men and the point is that businesses have certain rules for men and women because a business likes to project certain values, if they are conservative then the women need to dress conservatively and so do the men. If the business has a more lax attitude then hey wear that low cut top with pride. As for not being a large breasted woman, well how does that prevent me fromm deciding whether large breasts are obscene or not? Sorry you can't play that card for this one

I think we're going round in circles now, nothing new is being said.

Originally posted by undo
surely there's an alternative to covering women up in more and more fabric, till you don't know if they're in there or not, having been swallowed by their own clothing to cover their shame. and here i thought it was our hair that was supposed to do that (cover the shame, i mean).

ah well

Once again, a business likes to portray itself in one light or another, it just so happens that society as a whole considers cleavage at work as not being professional and not being conservative. Why you are arguing that point i'm not sure because it's self evident in the business world.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


yes i can play that card on this one, because i am a conservative dresser and i was also objectified due to the size of my breasts, even conservatively covered. why do you think women end up in bags of cloth in shar'ia law countries? because once you start accusing women of being obscene, just for having the attributes she was given, you have to follow thru, and to follow thru that thought, resolves into hiding them away entirely (or in the case of some ladies, mangling them so they can't be used against their owners)

reply to post by undo


Nice try but no you can't play the card of being a woman here, deciding whether something is obscene or not does not require me to have breasts, furthermore i haven't said anything is obscene which is kind of funny you went there. Once again this is not about obscenity it is about whether something is appropriate for work. Showing breasts at work doesn't make them obscene, it does mean you are being less than professional because the only reason to show them is a a sexual display and no sorry it's nothing else and i know you might try and twist it but breasts have only two functions. The first is feeding children but the second is attracting a mate and to show them at work means you are concerned with that second reason. Or of course it will lead men and women to wonder if your abilities are good enough for the job you are in, why would you need to show off your breasts otherwise?

Consider men for a moment, we could go into work wearing trousers that frame our backsides very nicely, what if we button down our tops to reveal our chests as well? Why isn't this allowed in the workplace? If you can answer this then maybe you will understand why women showing cleavage is not a professional thing to do. If you can't answer this then you are just a aprt of a double standard.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


i don't dress obscenely, nor do i think women's breasts are obscene. nor do i agree with women not dressing modestly in the work place. however, if she can do the job and do it well, her breast size or how her breasts are covered, in a job that has no dress code to speak of, is irrelevant. the employer needs to stipulate appearance standards if he/she has a hiring practice that would naturally indicate unspoken clothing restrictions. otherwise, yes you're going to encounter women wearing just any old thing to work, which may or may not include modesty, particularly for women who are chesty, because for them, just any old thing may be on the inherently obscene side for some folks (including employers) due almost exclusively to the way in which large breasts are viewed to begin with.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

i don't dress obscenely, nor do i think women's breasts are obscene. nor do i agree with women not dressing modestly in the work place. however, if she can do the job and do it well, her breast size or how her breasts are covered, in a job that has no dress code to speak of, is irrelevant. the employer needs to stipulate appearance standards if he/she has a hiring practice that would naturally indicate unspoken clothing restrictions. otherwise, yes you're going to encounter women wearing just any old thing to work, which may or may not include modesty, particularly for women who are chesty, because for them, just any old thing may be on the inherently obscene side for some folks (including employers) due almost exclusively to the way in which large breasts are viewed to begin with.

Firstly some employers now are giving out memos regarding dress code but they are treading a fine line and i don't think it will be long before someone files a lawsuit claiming they should be able to show their cleavage at work, such a case will of course fail because the employer can demand whatever they like when it comes to appropriate dress.

However if people cannot figure out what is appropriate for work, well then they are not the brightest bulb in the light string and probably won't go far anyway, sorry to be blunt about it but it's the truth. The employer can ask you to dress appropriately even after you are employed because it is their right as an employer to make sure their representatives (employees) put across the right image. If you don't like that fine but the law is on the employers side and rightfully so.

Lets be clear as well it's not all about men looking at breasts, a woman showing cleavage can make prospective female clients reconsider dealing with a company, depending upon what kind of company it is i mean. Obviously if it's a bar she won't be that upset, if it's a law firm, well maybe she'll be going across the road to the more conservative, sober company.