Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

reply to post by undo


I understand that, as I am FAR from a GQ model-looking guy. I have a few flaws, I am short (only 5' 6") and have crooked front teeth that are larger than I wish. I learned to not hide behind a mask of self doout and use my apperance as an excuse for failure or achievement; I learned to let my credentials stand and speak for me. Women do use the EO policies to their advantage sometimes, just as other people do (minorities, handicapped) but the difference is, women should not NEED this policy in todays society. I know some people may look down on a female at times, but I know of NO job that a woman can't do just a good as a man. I'm not talking sports now, I'm talking productive work!

In my life I have women outshine men in MANY different jobs. These women all had two things in common:
1) None of them every thought they needed to look pretty to get ahead. (Some were beyond my ideas of beauty)
2) They had the courage to stand and look superiors (normally men) in the eye and challenge them to find someone better.

This is the problem with most women. They think they can just look pretty and avoid challenges, then bitch about EO voilations when they are passed over. In my eyes its a complete violation of the purpose of EO to begin with; if you refuse to try or physically/mentally are not able to pass certain challenges/requirments to be promoted, then accept the truth and work on being better. Don't complain that the tasks are too difficult then demand that separate requirements should be made for women. That is a slap in the face of EVERY male that has already come, and in the future will strive to meet the requirements. Equality means doing the equal amount, not substituting what is equal for what is easier for weak-willed women to achieve!

Originally posted by intrepid
...4- If you don't get my post, see the paragraph above because this seems to be a case of "I want what I want without having to deal with any consequence." Guess what? Newton's 3rd law states that, "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." You can't beat physics, no matter what anyone may think.

Flame on ladies, I can take it. Even from well endowed women. Ooooo, scary.

Yep, you're free to make your own choices, but not free to choose the consequences.

reply to post by intrepid


problem is, some female assets are automatically thought of as unprofessional. you wouldn't dream of passing up a man for a job based on a natural attribute, if he otherwise had the credentials or was attempting to gain the credentials, if you were so inclined to give him the chance. for example, you wouldn't pass up promoting a black man, simply because he was sexually attractive to the ladies.
why is it then that women can be passed up for promotion because of sexual attractiveness?

If a hot girl wore a low cleavage shirt at my work I would be in heaven, however, my work productivity would go to 0%

Is this my fault, no. Should it be my responsibility to overpower my animal instincts and concentrate on some meaningless task, maybe but that's pretty hard

I think it's just safe to wear non revealing clothing for everybody's best interests

reply to post by Seitler


as an 19 year old, i worked in a pepsi factory during the first days of equal opportunity employment. i was hired to fill a quota of so many women and/or minorities per caucasian male in the factory. as you can well imagine, the presence of women in what had traditionally been a men's only job environment, did not go over very well in the beginning.

one of the jobs i was required to do was to pick up 50 lb stacks of sheet metal rectangles, imprinted with the pepsi logo, and place them in the machine, which would bend them into a tube and sotter them with lead to close the seam. (this was in 1977). i had to do this constantly, over and over again. and i did. but men were always watching me from afar, skeptically, to see if i would give out and drop them all over the place, or jam up the machine.

in fact, this particular stereotype was so strong, that when i had to load a different machine with 120 lb band of rolled steel strip (to bind up 10 high pallets of pepsi cans), my work partner (also a 19 year old but a male) felt obligated to assist me in lifting the weight, even though i didn't ask him for help. then he took it from me and dropped it on my foot, nearly breaking all the bones in my toes. (no steel toed boots there, for some reason).

i had all kinds of really bad sexual harrassments in that place, and all because men didn't think the factory was any place for the ladies. they may be right, just based on how painful it was to work there, but then i don't think it was fit for any human beings. place had more toxins lingering in the air and noise pollution from the machines than should be considered safe for anything but machines.

reply to post by undo


I think you worded your point wrong, or do not see the difference in what is being implied.

If a man (of whatever color) is attractive to women, but wears professional and non-revealing clothing, then he should get the promotion. Same thing for the women, if they are attractive to men and wear professional and non-revealing clothing, they, too should also be promoted.

The problem comes from women, who may be far more qualified than the men or other women, try to get a position that requires them to dress in acceptable (business casual) attire, and yet wear nothing but highly revealing clothing to work 3 out of 5 days to work. Would you really want her representing your company? Maybe if she was trying to convince a guy in a bar to buy stock, sure... but in trying to convince a corperate mogule to provide a large backing for future ventures I would rather have a professional looking person, male of female, doing the talking. I don't want mister-big to get lost in a sea of clevage and then forget what was being discussed.

Guys are easily distracted. It can be a nice rack, or a nice car. Hell, even an ugly car if it sounds nice. You need to understand that when dealing with guys, it's best to provide as few distractions as possible.

Yes, yes, yes... women don't get distracted as easy... Oh wait! I think I just got a text. Oh its Jenny... (You get the point of the joke there, right??)

reply to post by undo


Many factories now have many improvements in these areas - regardless of gender.

cross anyone's mind that gay men may be promoted by other gay men, not because they are gay, necessarily, but because they are good at their job (regardless of their sexual attractiveness or gossip over why a gay man was promoted by a gay man)?

think past the stereotype and realize it's a matter of projection at work and if you were to just relax and not only accept your proclivities but make a conscience effort to not let them control you, neither you or the other employees would be concerned enough to gossip about it. .

p.s. if i thought someone was really exceptional, i wouldn't care what their appearance or persuasion was, but whether or not they could do the job up the standards required. if the job required a particular type of attire, i would brief them on this, the same as any potential employee or soldier, is briefed for job requirements. as a requirement of the promotion, i would inform him/her that there's a dress code that differs from their current choice of attire. THEN it would up; to them. but before that, i don't see how you could view it as an acceptable means to determining who is and isn't capable. you don't even know what they are willing to do to get the promotion yet, but historically, people have done all kinds of much more unscrupulous things to get promotions besides wearing clothes that accentuate their best features.

reply to post by undo


One thing I have always been told when showing aspirations for promotion was this:
Dress for the possition you want, speak in the way the possition dictates, and always be the one to set the example. (The military motto for this: Lead from the front, not the rear)

That is my personal experience though. On a sidenote, Undo, I am sending you a friendly message about another topic I just saw you started. It will be there soon

How about i buy a female top, push my man-boobs up, and show everyone my "cleavage", and see how i get on in the workplace.???

reply to post by undo


I don't think they would be passed over for sexual attractiveness, at least not in most of the cases. If they are, that's unfair and should be dealt with. But I do think an underhanded seductress might get passed up for those attributes, and fairly so. It is a character issue. If a particular person is selfish and deceptive and manipulative and good at it, they are a potentially major liability to a company. Psychopaths and narcissists can wreak torrential damage in a workplace environment. Give that person the gold star of authority and you have a potential nightmare on your hands. Wearing a revealing top does not make a person this aforementioned character. But wearing a revealing top is par for the course for this character, at least of the female variety. Plus a selfish/manipulative type will push the envelope without breaking rules just to get blackmail material if anyone decides to out them. If they are fired, it is because of some discriminatory reason, even though the person was setting up the dominoes so that he or she could do all sorts of things worthy of firing and have the discrimination trump card. Or, just be so good at the conning and selfish charm that real credentials will be overlooked.

Point being, I can think of many reasons there happens to be a correlation between revealing tops and being passed over for a promotion (except at Fox News). There are so many reasons other than discrimination that it isn't even funny. As long as people are treated equally under a dress code, and the standards (both official and just generally socially acceptable in that environment) of nakedness are the same, then a company has every right to expect people to dress a certain way, even without an official uniform.

reply to post by DaRAGE


Only if your "post-op" lol. (Wonder how many get that joke?)

Originally posted by intrepid

3- Yes, boobs are sexual. Why do you think they reply to tactile stimulus?

If boobs didn't give a woman feel-good sensations when they were touched, primitive babies would have died of hunger.
As it was, feeding was bloody awful when my first was born with teeth and chewed my nipples raw.

That feeling of the nipples being sucked also enables the let-down reflex. It's handy to have a touch sensitive tap to control the milk supply.


However, to be honest, I have also enjoyed having breasts on occasions other than breastfeeding.


When it comes to work attire, well, it all depends where you're working. Tater hasn't specified her career.
If it's a regular office setting, "showcasing" the uncovered assets is just one more way of making trouble.
When the men have to wear trousers, long-sleeved suits and ties, it doesn't hurt women to be a bit considerate and professional about the way they dress.

Undo is in an entirely different category. She has never advocated wearing immodest clothing to work.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Tater , It's not about you or your perceived rights in the workplace. Somewhere you have wrongfully concluded that somehow you still own yourself in the business owners realm. You do not! Don't believe me??...ask a contract law Attorney!!

I suspect this is due to your naivete and mundanity. And as countless posters have tried to explain to you, that by continuously ignoring the perceptions that are afforded subtle exhibitionists.Particularly when being judged for retention or promotion.

That is the perception you are projecting now. In this thread. Without even knowing it. And we can't even see your cleavage.

When it comes to businesses decisions, quality of character plus being intellectually sophisticated and worldly through cultivation or experience are high factors being considered in a "professional" business environment.

Again, It's perception perception perception!


In my Engineering consulting company...most definitely.

In my Custom chopper shop...not so much. Can you tig weld?? My welders do not show their cleavage by choice..(rapid and painful sunburn!) But the Models do! Again, because it is part of the job I pay them for. Not their welding skills.


I also suspect that,in your case, the only way for you to gain any worldliness and sophistication will be by brute, blunt disillusionment.

What I mean by this is simply being told by a superior in a work place that by standing your ground (my cleavage..and I'll show it if I want to attitude) will be met with "while you are on the company time we own your (fill in favorite "assest") "And your blatant disregard for the company protocol has left us no choice but to terminate your employment immediately." "Now hit the bricks..Chick!" In most "employment at will" States, This is completely within their rights, as an employer.

And you would waste money paying a lawyer to battle it. Because, for example, they really fired you for being late to work more than 3 times in the last 6 months..Or some such "loophole".
Now you have come to the brutal realization that their prerogative to keep you, trumps your prerogative to show your cleavage..at least in their realm.

quoted from the linked article in the OP:

After my plastic surgery, I knew that if I was hired it was because of my work, not my cup size.

Now you tell me, is this not ridiculous, that this woman felt she had to have major organs of her body mangled, in order to be accepted in her work place for her brain and not her cup size?

that's just .....come on guys, have some compassion. realize we are all in this place together. we're supposed to work together symbiotically, not you way over there or way up there, and the ladies down yonder, deliberately having their body parts chopped up so you will actually listen to what they are saying or being shoved in sacks that cover them from head to toe. all you have to do is learn not to project onto the women, i really believe it is that easy . .

it's unconscionable that this is beyond the capacity of men, who are just getting too comfortable with the idea of women's breasts being big secret mountain tops on a planet in the nether regions of the universe ,where people only travel to when they want to be temporaily entertained by dumb. .

le mew, le sigh.

So many things could be said about all of this! But I don't have the time nor desire to go into a huge rant.

If you are not comfortable with your body, and feel you need to change it to get ahead in the workplace, shame on you! Your insecurities are not a concern for employers, nor do they really care how big/small your assests are unless you are a model or server at a "showy" club/bar/diner or something like that where it is a must.

IF you think you are not being hired because you are not good enough, and feel that flaunting your body is the only way to get the job then you are probably right. You should look for a position that suits your skills more favorably. Or try to be better.

When passed up for a promotion, don't assume that the person that got it was selected because they looked better than you. Talk to the people on the selection board or the person you were interviewed by. Chances are that they will have a very valid reason for having not chosen you. Assumptions only make you look like a fool.

I was passed for a promotion to site supervisor recently. (well, back in February) I asked why I was not chosen for the position. I was affraid that I was lacking certain credentials. The answer was suprising and upsetting, but made me feel better about me. I lost due to a coin toss. The choices were me and my coworker, and it turned out we were both equally qualified. He is black and I am white. I didn't then, nor have I ever, thought it was about EO. We are in the same age bracket, with the same amount (though different) experience in the field. I felt relieved that I lost the position because the coin landed favorably for him, and not that I was lacking anything he had. Plain and simple, ASK WHY, don't assume its something ABOUT YOU. Many people apply for positions, so remember you are not the only one that is being considered. The world revolves around no one person, no matter how powerful. Not even the 'NWO'.

reply to post by Zeptepi


The topic is cleavage in the workplace, not your perception of my insecurities and professional history. Do you know me personally? Do you know if I even work at all? Maybe I don't have to work, you do not know. I did not ask for nor need a psychological review, but thanks for the laughs.

I feel that by focusing on and trying to diagnose me personally vs just debating the topic, you reveal a lot about your own insecurities.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


you keep saying it is your right to wear whatever clothes you want, but that men need to control their biological functions...

do you even see how rediculous this is??

how can men control a chemical reaction in their brain that causes bloodflow to their genitalia?

and why is it you fail to see that the dress code in a workplace supercedes your personal desire to wear whatever clothes you want, whether you are male or female??

seems to me that the mentality you have shown throughout this thread is the only thing holding you back from getting promotions, and you are just using the cleavage excuse as a scapegoat...

reply to post by hotbakedtater


This is what you wrote in your OP:

Many of my shirts are V cut, because I enjoy showcasing my best assetts

Showcasing....showing off. What is the difference?