Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


i was thinking she was saying more along the lines of : purple is not my best color, so i wear blue. or empire style is not my best style, so i wear A-line
A-line dress example
they accentuate my breasts in a way that i prefer. (perhaps the style doesn't make them look as large? the video from the fashion designer who makes clothes for busty women even suggested v-necks, several times.
or i prefer a tighter fit on the top and waist, because i think it makes me look better. like this lady. she's wearing a tight, sleeveless dress, but doesn't look unprofessional at all

Originally posted by kalisdad
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

you keep saying it is your right to wear whatever clothes you want, but that men need to control their biological functions...

do you even see how rediculous this is??

how can men control a chemical reaction in their brain that causes bloodflow to their genitalia?

and why is it you fail to see that the dress code in a workplace supercedes your personal desire to wear whatever clothes you want, whether you are male or female??

seems to me that the mentality you have shown throughout this thread is the only thing holding you back from getting promotions, and you are just using the cleavage excuse as a scapegoat...

Men cannot control themselves, you say? Oh please. Give me a break, how lame. Men can control themselves, it is so ludicrous to think they cannot.

And why are you discussing my personal life? The topic is cleavage in the workplace, and how some women may lose promotions because of it. I offered an OPINION, this is not a debate about me or if I work or where I work if I even work at all.

If there is not uniforms, and v necks are not specifically denied in the handbook on dress code, then I CAN wear what I want, and it is not my pronblem that someone else cannot contain themselves (men or women.)

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

This is what you wrote in your OP:

Many of my shirts are V cut, because I enjoy showcasing my best assetts

Showcasing....showing off. What is the difference?

You say show off I say show case, semantics. So what if someone wants to show off their cleavage? I say if you are being passed over for a promotion due to cleavage, one, the morons you work for let you get away with it, so by precedent they have no case. And two it is disgusting that someone (boss) allows cleavage to be the deciding factor. How telling of that persons perversion level.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


oh, i guess i was wrong i thought you were just saying you weren't ashamed of your breasts and wore clothes that you felt accentuated them most attractively (and v necks appear to be a popular choice for breasty women because they streamline the torso moreso). but what you're actually saying is women should be allowed to show cleavage in any work environment where there's no hard and fast rules about attire, and still expect the same chances at promotion.

reply to post by undo




Not to mention being treated as a person and not just boobs on a chest.

@hotbakedtater- So as you just suggested, lets assume I work in an office for a business that is a small firm. Maybe 20 people max. Let's assume that the boss is a male in his mid-50s. His two supervisors are both male and female. The female is getting fired, and her job is up for offer. You are in the running for the position against 5 other people in the office. You wear low-cut shirt to work everyday, the other 3 competing women wear traditional office attire. The only male wears a pair of jeans every day.

ALL OF YOU have the same qualifications. ALL OF YOU are more than able to do the work. Who would you choose? The girl who looks as if she wants to be a server at Hooters? The guy that looks as if he is more comfortable on a horse than in an office? or one of the 3 girls that LOOK like business professionals?

This is why you should dress for the position, even if you have not got it. EVEN if it is not open. When it is open, you may want it but your previous actions and appearances can and will prevent you from getting the job.

Again I sayress to fit the position you wish to be in. Not the position you currently serve in.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

The topic is cleavage in the workplace

Yep, And clearly addressed in both of my posts in this thread. Re-read my post. Care to pick out and directly debate any of my points? Again, My Engineering Consulting Co. and my Custom Motorcycle Co. Give me a clear perspective of both ends of the spectrum of "cleavage in the workplace" I do the hiring and firing in my companies. Including the deeply cleavaged and topless models. Germane enough to the topic for you?

and it should be MY choice how I want to dress or display my cleavage.

Should be..would be...could be...But it Aint.
Not in a privately owned company.

not your perception of my insecurities and professional history.

At an interview or promotion time, these are the things that a company management team will review.Along with attitude and performance.

For the record:
I Never said a word about your insecurities.Or professional history. In fact, I think you made it abundantly clear, and quite convincinly so, that you are very secure in your physical appearance. Of this, I have no doubt. Nor anyone that has read any of your posts.

Do you know me personally?

Nope, and would I have asked you if you could weld if I did?

Do you know if I even work at all? Maybe I don't have to work, you do not know.

I did not ask for nor need a psychological review, but thanks for the laughs.

Nevermind, subtlety is apparently lost on you.
But glad you got a laugh. It helps with my insecurities...

reply to post by hotbakedtater

it should be MY choice how I want to dress or display my cleavage.

you're kidding with this one right? if its your choice to show your cleavage however you want then why isn't it someone else's choice to make hiring, promotion, or firing decisions based on that?

are you drawing the line with freedom at only your actions? or......

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

it should be MY choice how I want to dress or display my cleavage.

you're kidding with this one right? if its your choice to show your cleavage however you want then why isn't it someone else's choice to make hiring, promotion, or firing decisions based on that?

are you drawing the line with freedom at only your actions? or......

edit on 18-12-2010 by snusfanatic because: (no reason given)

I never said anything about restricting anyone else's choices. I offered an opinion on what I feel about the article.

reply to post by snusfanatic


ahHHH, here comes the big philosophical debate!
is what you see in front of you avoidable?
if yes, avoid it.
if no, you're probably tied to a chair being brain washed by images of large women



www.youtube.com...

OTHERWISE, the idea that someone else's appearance can somehow impact your freedom, is right up there with people who complain about seeing women in abayas. (which i do, btw. just seems wrong to hide them under all that material.)

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
The topic is cleavage in the workplace, not your perception of my insecurities and professional history. Do you know me personally? Do you know if I even work at all? Maybe I don't have to work, you do not know. I did not ask for nor need a psychological review

...tater - you opened the door for other people to speculate on your personality by including tmi in your op... no one forced you to give out personal info - that was totally your call... it is NOT your place to dictate how people perceive your op or how they respond to it - thats their call...

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
And why are you discussing my personal life? The topic is cleavage in the workplace, and how some women may lose promotions because of it. I offered an OPINION, this is not a debate about me or if I work or where I work if I even work at all.

...cleavage in the workplace could have been the only topic if you had not included your personal info - but - since you did, that expanded the topic arena significantly... you cannot control how people perceive what you posted about yourself, just like you cant control what people think of you when you show off your bosom bulges at work...

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
If there is not uniforms, and v necks are not specifically denied in the handbook on dress code, then I CAN wear what I want

...if THAT is what you wanted this thread to be about, you shouldve not posted the comments below (from your op)...

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Being asked to cover up my cleavage, when the office does not require uniforms, is oppressive, and a conspiracy against women.

Some women, like me, have rather large breasts.

I love my breasts, they are a part of me I refuse to hide them.

Many of my shirts are V cut, because I enjoy showcasing my best assetts

it should be MY choice how I want to dress or display my cleavage.

...your comments up there are what induced so many posters to analyze you personally... comprende?...

my question is then, if the woman is responsible for how the man's biology works, and she must be altered so he doesn't sin/slack off on the job/promote her mindlessly and etc, when DOES a man's responsibility begin, or does it?

reply to post by undo


Well obviously men must be stronger than their basic urges, but it does not help to have other factors pushing the male-ego into a more primal state. The same can be said about women though. I can wear a certain cologne that drives my girlfriend insane. All I need to do is spritz it on and get her alone, game over.
Women and men can both be aroused by numerous stimuli, but BOTH must do their part to keep the workplace from being overrun by under dressed or improperly dressed employees.

Now, is that so hard a compromise?

reply to post by Seitler


not for me it isn't, but for someone else, it might be. for the same reason i think an unrestrained work place should reflect it's freedom of expression for people who dress less than modestly, i also think the same should apply to people who want to dress modestly, or completely cover up ( even though i think both (not modest, too modest) are over reactions).

in either case, the individuals are expressing themselves as free willed entities. provided the employer has no set rules about it, it would seem he would need to establish some if he notices he has trouble promoting people in his employ based on their attire. *scratch head* seems logical to me

(edit, man i need to correct my posts before i hit the post button)

Originally posted by hotbakedtater]You say show off I say show case, semantics. So what if someone wants to show off their cleavage? I say if you are being passed over for a promotion due to cleavage, one, the morons you work for let you get away with it, so by precedent they have no case. And two it is disgusting that someone (boss) allows cleavage to be the deciding factor. How telling of that persons perversion level.

You keep saying this isn't about you tater but your attitude has entered the debate and so it will be torn apart just as your motive will. Perversion is not the reason they are being passed over, public image is. Maybe you should start your own business in a conservative business world and you will quickly learn the rules about dress code. Conservative, serious business people want to deal with other conservative, serious business people.

As stated before, it seems you have the attitude that you can do no wrong and everyone else is the problem, that right there is a problem and so it will be discussed because it has bearing on how this debate goes. Don't tell people to stay on topic because you made yourself the topic.

And yeah i'm quite sure you are loving the attention, even if it's negative, which is quite sad and something most children grow out of.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


If it is just semantics, as you say, then you are agreeing with me. You are showing off. Your OP gave way more information than you probably intended, but it gives real insight. You are coming across as a petulant teenager, wanting things your way. You can indeed dress how you want at work, and the boss can indeed pass you over for a promotion. Even in workplaces where dress codes are not enforced, you are expected to dress professionally for the particular job. I could go to the office in cutoffs and a muscle shirt, because there is no dress code. And my boss can tell me I look like a fool and send me home to change. I would have no grievance. Neither would a woman who is dressed in a way that needlessly shows off her body. What is the point of "showcasing" your breasts at work? For what possible reason would you need to dress like that while working? Work is not high school; it is not a popularity contest, where the boys leer at the girls. It is work.

reply to post by undo


That may be, but the way she worded her OP really left it open to interpretation.

And the woman in the video is dressed well, though some employers may not like it.

reply to post by undo


I agree that people should freely express their individuality, but not at work. Not to the point where I am virtually seeing the entire side or top boob. Like I've said before, I don't mind to see 'em, hell I'll be the first to look, but that is the problem. People WILL look, and people will in turn judge. That's the cold and simple truth of the matter.

The question I pose now is: Should a person dress in revealing attire in a place that has no dress-code IF there is a daycare center at the location? A lot of urban high-rise corporate buildings have day-cares built into them for convenience to the parents. Granted, these people aren't going to be in the day care most of the day, but the children will probably catch glimpses of these people. Over time, this can lead to certain preconceptions in the child's mind about how women should dress and how they should treat these women.

This is not a stretch, this kind of thing happens daily.

Originally posted by undo
in either case, the individuals are expressing themselves as free willed entities. provided the employer has no set rules about it, it would seem he would need to establish some if he notices he has trouble promoting people in his employ based on their attire. *scratch head* seems logical to me

(edit, man i need to correct my posts before i hit the post button)

edit on 19-12-2010 by undo because: (no reason given)

That's the thing, in a workplace you are not a free willed entity, you are there to do a job, contractually employed. I'm not saying you are a robot, you have human rights but you don't have the right to do whatever you like. If you did then no work would ever get done! As for the employer setting rules i think you'll find that many now are simply because of people like tater who refuse to go along with the generally accepted rules of a business place and that is very sad because the little bit of leeway that is given now will eventually be gone.

Basically when you are outside of work then feel free to do whatever you like, wear what you like, speak how you want to speak but at work there are general standards which have to be followed.

Originally posted by hotbakedtaterSo, in your experience, as employees, employers, coworkers, men and women, what do you think?

Now cover your cleavage and pull up your pants! That's like children showing their butt-cracks. Have some decency people! Not unless you'd like to broadcast a sexual message to everyone.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


i just think the employer who has unspoken rules on important social issues, that deter him from promoting someone, is doing himself and the rest of his employees, a disservice. if he knows he will not promote a woman who dresses that way, and yet doesn't have dress code guidelines, he can't expect his employees to be mind readers. and it truly is silly as a fruitcake that a woman has be the conscience for the man who has his own conscience, or as my hubby put it: QUIT TRYING TO BE MY CONSCIENCE! (in response to my request that he do this very thing -- exercise his intellectual prowess over his biological proclivities). he told me that years ago, when we first got married, and i have never forgotten it.

in this particular philosophical debate, the two messages cross streams and cancel each other out, as i can't be and not be, a man's conscience at the same time.