The Forbidden Fruit, Origional sin was SEX

reply to post by littlecloud


It's a fruit! Not an Apple!
Just wanted to make that clear. Mkay?
Get it?

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


either way, does not discount the fact that god told adam and eve to go forth and multiply?
wanna debunk that aswell. ?
and an apple is a fruit anyway, you know what i ment.

Faithkeeper

good work you're doing here. If all christians were like you, there would be no need for old grumpy christian-critics like me.

There's has been a former thread on the trees of Eden, and the participants did a fairly thorough job of trying to work out most of the possible combinations of: "If this...then what?". You see, NONE of the elements in the tree scenario are defined precisely enough to have one undisputed meaning.

Does 'knowledge' refer to:

1/ Daily usage knowledge like you learn in school (some christian based ATS threads take that position)

2/ Specific knowledge of ethical standards (in judaism the interpretation on this differs somewhat from pauline interpretations)

3/ Knowledge of 'higher' existential levels (like the situation in the sixties, where a debate of psyho-active substances raged)

4/ Information on and use of competing 'spiritual methodologies' such as gnostic 'gnosis (=direct, experienced spiritual knowledge) or buddhist 'realisation'.

Does the concept 'sin' refer to any of the above or to:

1/ Plain disobediance (many christians on ATS support this opinion)

2/ The use of sex as a spiritual methodology (e.g. 'tantra', kundalini etc. Many neo-pagans, christian-gnostics, tantrics, pagan-gnostics use this).

Sorry, possibly boring. Even more likely: Nitpicking. But as you see, a lot of answers manifest depending on the constellations used.

Furthermore... at first sight my comments don't seem to relate to your line of thoughts. But notice, that gen. 1 and 2 aren't completely identical. It's basically the same story, but retold with some variations. In gen. 1 the Lilith option is possible, not in gen. 2. But if gen. 2, where did Cain later get his wife from? A sister? Or if gen. 1, a halfsister (with Lilith as mother?)

In gen. 1 mankind is expected to be vegetarians (not so explicitely in gen. 2). There's a connection here: In a gen. 1 scenario Cain can have married a gen. 1 offspring, he's a grower, not a cattleman, AND his burning offer to the Jahveh is refused. Whereas the blood-offer from Abel is accepted.

Later in OT Jahveh gives quite specific instructions on blood as a part of temple-offerings.

As far as I can see, there are two basically different ideologies at work here, a problem recurring all through the bible. The postulated 'bad guys' have a background in gen. 1. The postulated 'good guys' in gen 2. But there's only ONE Jahveh, changing moods constantly to a schizoid degree, from everloving 'do not kill' and 'treat each other well' to a raving genocidal maniac.

Circumstantial, isn't it? And I could unfortunately go on. But just one more thing: The two trees are in (I believe) sumerian mythology ONE tree, but hopefully Tayesin will comment on that. I have a great respect for his knowledge.


For the Lilith interested. Here's a good thread with some sound background: www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Please show where God tells Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply and source. It doesnt and God Doesn't

When the statement was made Eve was not yet created for Adam. Please post the passage in detail as I have done on the previous page. Have you not read my post on page 3? My source the BIBLE, the reference edition, The NIV, www.biblegateway.com...

Now to carry on a bit further.

Now lets go to Genesis 3 21

(21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.)

very interesting. Not like God alone but like one of us. Meaning his Angels?

Knowing good and evil? Now they / Adam and Eve know wright from wrong since the forbidden act.

Gen 21 Continued
(He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.)

The tree of life, Now Neither Adam nor Eve could live forever. Talk about population control and over population. The life cycle had been created now and formed by the forbidden act. The cycle of all human life. To be born, bare children, to have pain in child bearing, to work by the sweat of your brow, To have your children grow up and have children and to die to continue the cycle of life.

What happens next in Genesis?

Eve becomes pregnant and bares Cain

let this soak in, take time and with an open mind re read everything.

Time to get ready for work...I'm tired and a bit red eye'd.

Thank you Bogomil!

reply to post by faithkeeper


Wow your using the bible? me too.

in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;

BIBLE.
sex is not a sin. why else would we be made male and female? Kinda defies common sence.
By believing sex is evil youve believed in all the bull that has corrupted christianity.
acting in LUST is a sin. NOT sex. this is why sex is not one of the deadly sins you see.
Believe in god, not the church people.
Oh and you may benefit in watching sins of the flesh. a documentry on sex and religion.

Allready went through this...he created them...Eve was not even in the picture at this time. Already debunked sorry.

God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;

reply to post by faithkeeper


According to this she was, are you reading YOUR bible?
Nice theory OP, but i dont believe it

Re Littlecloud:

You wrote

"acting in LUST is a sin. NOT sex."

I actually tried sex once, and there was even another person involved. So I do have some experience.

But I don't understand the 'lust' = 'sin' thingy, you bring up. Are we supposed to read the bible at the same time, hoping that the plumbing will function anyway, or do you have some more extensive explanation on your extraordinary statement?

Could it be, that people having sex are sinners, until a person of religious authority reads some words from a book to them, and thus makes it OK? But...I almost don't dare to mention it. What if the religious-authority-person reads from the wrong book? Back to square one.

Sigh. Theology isn't easy. Lots of cold showers are though. But then, what about........well, forget it.

Please go back to page 3 where I explain in great detail. Sorry you are wrong. When God said be fruitful and multiply this is gen 1. Eve or Woman does not come along until gen 2


Please read carefully your Bible.
L

Well signing off for now and headed out to work. It will be interesting to see where this goes while im gone. Please read and re read page 3.

Foot note.

I'm am a Christian and believe in God and the Bible as the word of God.
I do not attend Church and listen to what the back woods country preachers or catholic priest tell me the Bible say's and it's the only right answer, Sorry the theory is wrong, thier theory if flawed at best. I read the word and attempt to understand the word of GOD and read carefully between the lines for a better understanding.
God Bless

reply to post by faithkeeper


yeah i read it, sorry to be a pain but i think he is reffering to them. If he made man and woman in his image wouldnt this be adam and eve?

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Read closely, Male and female he created them......Remember Eve was not created for Adam at this time. Eve does not come in the picture until Gen 2

So who did GOD bless? Think about what is written...the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

This is who GOD Blessed and told to be fruitful and multiply. Remember Eve nor the garden of Eden were not created yet by GOD.


when you read passage 28 and then 29 it looks as if god blessed man and woman with the plants and fish ect and told them to be fruitful and multiply, what made you come to your other conclusion?
My point is mainly in this bit

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

when he says them he is reffering to the same thing, are you saying he is reffering to the plants and animals? because you cannot really talk to plants and animals. lol
Sorry to be a pain, i just want to here where your conclusion came from.

Got to go but Male and female God was referring to both sexes of animales and creatures. Not man and Woman. No woman was created yet.

And he blessed them (The animals / Creatures) And bless them. Not Adam & Eve and told them to go and multiply.

Re Littlecloud:

You wrote:

"yeah i read it, sorry to be a pain but i think he is reffering to them. If he made man and woman in his image wouldnt this be adam and eve?"

Obviously you haven't read the posts on this thread very carefully, because it has already been pointed out, that gen. 1 and gen. 2 aren't exactly the same.

That you go on to INTERPRETATE them to BEING the same is a sad, but often seen attitude amongst certain christians. Now matter how difficult it is to reconcile the bible with itself, it must at all costs be presented as a coherent whole.

That christianity constantly schisms from interpretations and that all the factions are disputing, or even fighting each other, has not gone unnoticed by non-believers, and I have the greatest respect for Faithkeeper, who dares to sweep the christian backyard (or frontdoor). So much respect, that I as an otherwise unpleasant christian critic can make an armistice on the ground of 'live and let live'.

Personally I use science as one of my biggest sources of information, but I can see, that also science has its shortcomings. It can be cold, without compassion, ethically corrupt, bought by the highest bidder for abominable purposes and it's not without its own small epistemological idiocies. But I'm not a blind fanatic, trying to keep up a cosmetic facade on one of my favourites. When possible, I also try to sweep the scientific backyard.

Hopefully helping to make it possible for various ideologies, systems and whatever to have a communication, Something impossible between extremist fanatics.

This was a digression, and I will not continue further on this line.

reply to post by faithkeeper


I read that part again and again in my german version of the bible.
And for me it seems very clear that both men and women were created in the first chapter of genesis.

[my translation]
As men and women he created them. God blessed them saying "Increase and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and rule over the fishes of the sea and the birds of the heaven and all the domestic animals and the entire eartha and all the creeping things which creep upon the earth"
[/]

I think in german / latin the pronouns make it clearer. IMHO them refers to men and women, and that they shall increase and multiply and rule over the earth creatures...

I've followed your very interesting discussion and as i feel not to be enoughof a believer of the bible and similar texts i won't stick my nose out again
(you really don't want to hear my opinion on that stuff, and it doesn't matter, you discussion is very interesting)
But just had to say that you need to be very very carefull when it comes to even interpret pronouns in the bible as the translations did a lot of damage. Also i think that the mythology around and before the bible is very important to understand somethings.

i alrdy talked to much... scusi, keep on

Originally posted by theuhstuf
a good video on that subject:

Google Video Link

That's an excellent documentary on Daath(דעת).

It explains how Rah(רע), the original sin, is NOT SEX; but actually how the original sin is the orgasm.

The word "sin" is derived from a Sumerian word that means "to waste semen." - Amir Fatir

According to the Ausarian Resurrection story, the principles represented by the god Set include physical strength, sexual promiscuity, passion and brute force. Set has one more important meaning with regard to sexuality. The derivative word SETI which comes from Set also means "to shoot," as in shooting an arrow or as in ejaculation. From several mythological stories, it is clear that Set cannot control his sexual desires nor does he have the ability to contain his semen. In one episode of the battle between Horus and Set, Set tried to catch Aset in order to have intercourse with her. Unable to do so, he ejaculated on the ground, frustrated. Thus, Set represents the animal tendency to direct energy out of the body without control and to think passionately, reacting to life events without thinking.

Min is the aspect of Horus who restores justice after the brutal murder of Asar. As "the victorious one over the enemies of his father", Min, as a form of Horus, is victorious over the animal tendencies to passionate behavior and ejaculation (Set). Min's victory is not one of destruction over the primal forces, but one of mastery, control and sublimation. - Muata Ashby

Sex itself is of Eden(עדן), and is Sacred and Pure(טוב).

reply to post by faithkeeper


sf Good thought provoking first post. I saw some great discussion.

the original sin didnt take place in the garden and wasnt eating forbidden fruit from a tree. it was disobedience to God, performed by Lucifer. took place in Heaven.

Ok I'm on lunch and back for a quick few. Very interesting video presentation. Let me say this, we are all becoming awakened.

To recap so far. Adam was created prior to the woman who later would be given the name Eve.

At the time when God said be fruitful and multiply and it doesn't matter if it's Hebrew, English, German, French, etc The woman or mate for Adam was not yet taken from his rib. No female, No woman was yet created. This doesn't occure until Gen 2 and 3

God was not speaaking to Adam and Eve or Adam and any female in Gen 1. He was speaking to Adam alone then placed his blessing on them...The them meaning the creatures, animals. the birds of the air, the fish

We have to read closely and see past the garments to see the inner meaning itself.

This has been tried to be debunked but as of yet it's impossible. Eve came later. We cannot put our own interpetation on what happened. We must simply look past the vail and read the word.

Not everything is litterally as you think it is. Codes and symbols are used. Was the tree an actual tree?
Was the fruit actuially a piece of fruit? I think not.

Adam & Eve were tricked into commiting the ultimate sin.

And it wasn't litterally eating a fruit.

And after they were punished. No where does God say Adam, you and Eve be fruitful and multiply.

It wasnt until after the sin was comitted in the garden that the woman got her name. And what does Eve mean? Whats the translation?

What was the final outcome? Eve becomes pregnant and bares cain.

The world is going through change. So many are becoming enlightened. The gospel is being preached around the world...But what truth is being taught? I believe we are in the end of days. Time may just be running out. World events, Natural disasters, a world wide spiritual awakening is taking place. And the bridegroom may be soon knocking on the door.

Ok this is my theory, belief, whatever you wish to call it. Am I wrong? If so please show me the error of my way with source and documentation and proof. I may be, but as of yet I haven't reason to believe otherwise.

Here we go. Yes the new testament was full of parables. And Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. He made it difficult for those non followers to understand the real meaning behind what he taught. He shared these meanings of the parables with his disciples.

Many here have said the old testament contains no parables. Nothing could be further from the truth. The old testament is filled with hidden, deeper meanings than most would like to admit.

We tend to read the words and take everything litterally and at face value, The trees are real trees. The fruit means it's real fruit. We actually believe Eve ate a real delicous fruit and gave Adam a bite. Dont we?

I believe God intended the world to be filled with creatures..But initionally not Human beings. The tree of life...to eat of it and never die. To be GOD like and in his image and to be eternal.

To feel no hurt, no pain, no suffering. no wars, no death. The only way to obtain death would be to give up the life. No Bad, and No sense of Evil. To be like God pure LOVE. Without the Knowledge of sickness, confusion, passion, wrong doing, Killing, greed, all the sins of the Ten comandments.

Who is the author of Genesis? MOSES.

I believe that trees were used to paint a picture, an image for the reader to be able to see the word come to life for those who are enlightened enough to see past the trees.

I believe GOD warned them not to reproduce for this will begin the life and death cycle of the human race. Once this was done no longer would they be in the purest form again. When they failed to heed his warning they were cursed....to complete and begin the life cycle. By thier disobedience They now know of evil and of good. And are cast out of this utopia and never again can they live forever.

Again look beyond the trees. No trees, No fruit...Adam and Eve commited the origional sin and the outcome? The loss of living forever.

Thier act was the origional Sin.

Are we comiting sin when we have sex? I don't believe so. But we do pick up the curse on our first parents.

We live, Breath, Have child birth, pain during child birth, Toil and trouble, disease, sickness, Make wars, Kill one another etc.. and complete the endless cycle of life. We grow old and die and our children carry on the life and death process.

More later...take time to absorb all this..