Abortion is morally WRONG

Originally posted by predator0187
Well the only one to make the judgement if abortion is wrong is the person doing so.

By your logic, it's fine if I come round to your house and whack you with a blunt instrument; after all, the only person to make a judgement on whether that is wrong, is the person that does it .

Originally posted by predator0187
You cannot enforce your beliefs upon someone else, and if they deem it right at the time they are doing it then good on them.

Absolutely. So, again you'd say ''good on you'', to me, as you saw the blunt instrument coming your way ?

Originally posted by predator0187
Morals? Pffft, this world has no morals. Why is it any different killing a child then an animal? We abuse animals daily for our own benefit, which is morally wrong. We focus on the wrong issues.

Illogical point.

Disagreeing with killing children and disagreeing with killing animals are not mutually incompatible beliefs.

Originally posted by predator0187
Why make it your business to care what other people do in their personal lives?

Because, basic morality is based around the Golden Rule.

Something that someone does in their personal lives becomes socitiety's responsibilty as a whole, when it interferes with another person.

Of course, the hotly debated point on this subject is whether an unborn child constitutes a ''person''.

That is a matter of individual opinion, I'm sure.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


hey Sherlock, do not mix all together your foolish ideas ok ...
here we speak about a woman, with a non desired child in her chest, being not supported by a chimp that did put his stinking sperm into her body and that woman wanting not to give birth to a child she never did ask for or never did love anyway because love was NOT the initiation of the act ...
ok ??
you understand ??
May I # you and make you pregnant ?? will you accept my child in your body ??? understand ???
verstunden ?
chimps do not understand human behaviour, human distress ..

reply to post by Xiamara


I was sitting there with Colt in hand and when glanced up I noticed the NT sitting on the counter and decide to have a look see and as soon as I began to open the cover- an audible voice as if sitting on my left, like a friend would, said my name then "I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish"-can see a fuller explaination in sig, beyond that the Cherub/Angel a friend had seen as kids, there are other things also but not near as significant in relevance

Whether it's a zygote, embryo, or fetus, a life is a life and it doesn't need to breathe its first breath to be alive.

Why is it that abortion is acceptable because "it's her body" she only counts as one person, but murdering a pregnant woman will charge you two murders, the murder of the woman AND her unborn child?

It's not an act of privacy, both cases should be murder.









Famous people adopted/ and NOT aborted:

Aristotle
Art Linkletter
Bo Diddley
Buffy Sainte-Marie
Carl-Theodor Dreyer
Christina Crawford
Crazy Horse
Dan O'Brien
Dave Thomas
Debbie Harry
D.M.C.
Edgar Allan Poe
Edward Albee
Eleanor Roosevelt
Eric Dickerson
Faith Hill
Freddie Bartholomew
George Washington Carver
Greg Louganis
James MacArthur
Jean Jacques Rousseau
Jesse Jackson
Matthew Laborteaux
Melissa Gilbert
Michael Reagan
Moses
Nancy Reagan
Nelson Mandela
President Gerald Ford
President William Clinton
[President Abraham Lincoln]
Reno
Sarah McLachlan
Sen. Robert Byrd
Steve Jobs
Surya Bonaly
Tim Green
Tim McGraw

JESUS


Source

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


sorry I am getting aggressiv, but I really do not like those stupid morality f..ckers that accept violation of woman or other inhuman acting against woman and are here to tell us what is right or wrong !!!! first of all, do respect woman and childs !!! respect the other !!!! nothing to do with me coming into your home to harm you, everybody agrees this is wrong, here we speek about LOVE, a child must be first of all an act of LOVE otherwise that child is yet a victim just like that woman that has to decide wether to keep it or not !!
it's easy for the chimp, has nothing to decide, poor woman has all responsability and chimp still there to critizise her ???? this world is full of macho man, sharia still here in western society !!!!! woman always victims, childs also, I hate some of my fellow men, poor souls, poor spirits !!!!

reply to post by ohsnaptruth


poor person ... poor soul ... what do you want to show us ???
why do you not show us pictures of woman being violated by some kind of chimps like you ??
show us the pictures, videos of rape and torture of women ok ?? show us videos of sharia against woman ok ??
do you have the balls to show us that ???
no, because for you it is always the woman that is the guilty one !
show us pictures, videos of those macho penis that violate our women !!!!! this are the penis of some kind of men violating women, but here stops your argumentation, here no moral issue ??!!!
this is a world of chimps, telling others they may violate our women and what women then have to do !!!
bastards !! go to hell with your insane argumentation !!!

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


Yes, rape is very bad and should be an exception. However, most women get abortion in the US (I don't know about other countries) because they engange in a consensual act for pleasure and don't want to bear the concequences. However, the female body doesn't work that way. If one is raped, has a disrupted fetus, or the baby causes maternal issues, then those should be some exceptions to get the abortion.

reply to post by Rustami


Again personal experience is not always fact. I would call what you had an auditory hallucination. "If you talk to god your religious If god talks to you your crazy"-- Gregory House (House MD Television series). Going by your logic since God has not talked to me he cannot exist.

reply to post by ohsnaptruth


I live in canada and that is the most UNTRUE statement... And I'm sure its the same with the states do you have stats to back up your claim?

Originally posted by Traydor
can a woman really claim that the baby is her body?

...yes - because, technically, a fetus is a parasite...

Originally posted by Traydor
considering the child has got half the husband's DNA shouldn't he have a say?

...if she cares about him, she might take his opinion under consideration while making her decision but thats entirely her choice...

...lets not forget the reality that the reaction of many males is "abort it" or "i dont want it" or "it aint mine"...

Originally posted by Traydor
so many factors that can come into play where they would actually shift the boundaries of morality.

...but there are no boundaries of morality except the ones you adhere to yourself...

Originally posted by Traydor
i would personally would like a woman to make alternative options (give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption)

...so, giving away an infant to a business that will sell it like livestock (complete with a contract thats no different than those used to sell cars or furniture) is a good thing or, at least, preferable to abortion... i think thats obscene - but - its an excellent example of how one person's concept of morality is considered immoral by someone else...

Originally posted by Traydor
but in the end we can't make people do what they don't want to do. People have to make choices in their lives and live with the consequences.

...exactly...

Originally posted by Traydor
From my point of view if my wife had an abortion with my child i would end the relationship as i would want my own child to have a chance at life

...what if it wasnt yours?... what if it was due to being raped and she decided to keep it?... would you still leave her?... if not, could you raise that child without prejudice?...

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
Lets say they out-lawed abortions tomorrow. In a decade stories about "backstreet abortions" would make for normal readings in the paper.

If abortion was outlawed, then naturally you'd get backstreet abortions, but so what ?

People would have to take responsibility for the consequences of consenting to the ''crime'' of abortion, if it were illegal.

This illogical argument about backstreet abortions always rears it's head in this kind of debate, but it doesn;t make any sense.

If, hypothetically, abortion was deemed wrong by the laws and attitudes of society, then a woman getting hurt or killed undergoing this procedure would be treated in the same way as a burglar cutting himself on glass from a window, while attempting to break in to a property.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
There would be kids RESENTED by their parents because they "Took away their freedom" What happens to resented kids unhappy at home? Its a possibility they *Might* turn to petty crime.

But people would ''know the score'', before they took part in any sexual relations.

I doubt someone would resent their children too much, when they were forced to realise ( by society's view ), that the creation of the children was entirely of their own doing.

Even if what you say about resentment could be true in some cases, the suggestion that the child may turn to petty crime, is pure conjecture.

It could be also argued - equally conjecturally - that a child, having found out that their mother aborted a previous pregnancy, could resent the fact that they were denied an older sibling, and that may also cause them to turn to petty crime.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
At the end of the day woman are not going to stop having sex because they fear pregnancy and responsibility.

I disagree.

Of course women won't stop having sex, and there will always be ''unwanted'' pregnancies, but the prohibition of abortion, would make - both men and women - much more selective and less complacent, as to who they had sex with.

After all, before the days of legalised abortion, women weren't falling pregnant left, right and centre.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
Sex is wonderful, its just a shame that the end product can sometimes result in a baby.

You are echoing one of the main problems, surrounding this issue, in modern society.

That is: the constant distancing of ''sex'', the pleasurable activity, and ''sex'', the biological function that creates babies and furthers life.

This attitude of seperating sex in to two different concepts, is supported, not only legally, but by the imagery and attitudes that are spread throughout the media.

Presumably, if abortion was to attain illegal status in the future ( and it's bound to, eventually ), then the act of differentiating between sex for pleasure, and sex for procreation, would be drastically reduced, and people who would grow up in such an age, would be products of this society - and consequently, have slightly more discerning tastes, in terms of who they decided to have sex with.




I

Originally posted by ohsnaptruth
Whether it's a zygote, embryo, or fetus, a life is a life and it doesn't need to breathe its first breath to be alive.

But the 350lb woman who just got raped and is now pregnant and risking her own life to bear a child that she cannot afford to raise, and the child isn't even guaranteed to be alive -- we must force her into martyrdom; that is God's will . Right, Jesus?

Matt 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Oh, sorry Jesus, maybe next time I'll actually read the Bible before preaching about it as if I know anything about it.

Why is it that abortion is acceptable because "it's her body" she only counts as one person, but murdering a pregnant woman will charge you two murders, the murder of the woman AND her unborn child?

What you refuse to acknowledge is that, by not condoning choice of abortion, you are condemning many women AND the child inside of them to death. Talk about death by ignorance... ignorance forced by religion... this sounds oh too familiar.

It's not an act of privacy, both cases should be murder.

And who would be tried for murder in my circumstance? The people that forced this woman to bear a child? That's a premeditated killing right there, isn't it? Or should I just ignore this and initiate some surface-thinking to fit in with the pro-life crowd? You have a bad case of fingerpointicitis.

Famous people adopted/ and NOT aborted:

I stopped listening at "famous people". You are under the false impression that famous people are necessary. Talk about idolatry!

I haven't read all the responses yet. I plan to.

Thought I'd throw some ideas out as is, maybe others can work off them. In a backwards way. I also thought of something rather frightening in regards to myself.

Anyway, speaking of myself, which I normally do not like to do, but my thoughts come from my own experiences. I would be one of the females some would "exempt" from the abortion argument as I would absolutely fall into the "medically necessary" class of potential aborters.

To look at me, I look perfectly fine. But, I have a very unusual system, touchy like a German car. We can skip all that because much more importantly - I am radioactive. I have been exposed to all manner of chemicals as well (work in the sciences.)

So you see - I cannot get pregnant. Not only would it be dangerous for me - the child would likely be horribly deformed if it lived at all. The strong minded might want to Google various deformities - Thalidomide babies, Mercury poisoning - Bhopal India? Was bad with that? Extremely deformed children resulted if memory serves... Hang around chemicals enough and you'll produce some shockingly deformed children. Not only badly deformed and sick, probably brain damaged as well.

Give the kid a chance? Would YOU like to be condemned to life as a suffering vegetable?

Why don't I get my tubes tied? Good question. The biggest obstacle would be finding a doc to do it for a younger female. Now that I am sorta 'middle aged' - it would probably be easier.

But that costs $. Which I don't have. And insurance does not usually pay for this. I don't have that either.

And, I have always been either in a monogamous relationship or alone. ALWAYS used BC. Which is on the guy in my case because BC/Hormonal pills make me sick. Touchy system.

And this worked out OK.

But there could be an "accident". Some of the men I was with were sloppy with the BC even after I carefully explained.

My exH wanted kids and I suspect was being sloppy on purpose to "oops" me. And the most ludicrous part of that? HE was radioactive TOO!!! I know he was up over 80 rads and I'm sure I'm close to that still.

MORON.

He knew all of the above as well, as well as his own chem exposures, he got the "baby rabies" because his friends, family, coworkers were having kids. Following the rest of the sheep is not a good reason to bring a potentially seriously ill and deformed child into the world.

Yeah, he's history. And I'm very picky about who I associate with. Make sure any man I might get involved with is 100% Child Free. And on board with him doing the BC. And - if we're going to do 'long term' - open to the idea of HIM getting a vasectomy.

It's cheaper and easier than tube tying.

Of course I could still be raped.......

And then, if abortion is illegal, we'll have Godzilla on our hands, won't we?

Ever see a "Harlequin" baby? NOT for the faint of heart. I do not know what causes this condition, but you can bet that chem and radiation poisoning can produce the same and far worse damage.

Well anyway, as you can see - I'd fall into the "medically necessary" range - so maybe my thoughts here don't mean much. Something to consider anyway. I consider it, I really should get my tubes tied. But I am single/celibate presently so it is not an issue.

Some other thoughts on this - there are those out there who feel that women shouldn't be working and should dedicate their lives to being mothers. Such people might say, to someone like me - Well. If you hadn't been messing in chem and nuke work you wouldn't have soiled yourself and you could have had kids then.

I've never lived that sort of a lifestyle though, was always a bookish loner, was directed to work young via enrollment in private prep schools etc.

But now here's the creepy part: Suppose I had got it into my mind that I did want to be a Mom. You know what I found out recently? The area where I grew up is highly polluted. I'm '30 something' and I just found out a couple years ago that the area of my childhood home had bad groundwater pollution, including TCE, we all had wells there - and all the old neighbors got huge $ for this serious pollution.

I was drinking that water as a child. Before I ever even considered going into the sciences myself and foregoing children.

Well think of what might have happened - even from THAT. It's very creepy to think about IMO and I feel I probably saved alot of heartache for choosing to go Child Free. Which I did for numerous reasons and knowing that I was going into hazardous work. But I did not know about the groundwater pollution I had been exposed to in *my* childhood. None of us did I suppose - I moved away from there in my teens though.

OK, this is rather disjointed and my idea was just to throw out some thoughts that others might consider when thinking of the issue of abortion. There are alot of angles.

Please do not judge people on their choices either. Hell I get judged just for being CF - people think "selfish Yuppie" or Hedonistic Party Animal or whatever other crazy things. And mind you I haven't aborted anything. Still - just being CF does rile some people up.

Which is one of the reasons I AM interested in the abortion debate - even though one like myself can always get one and I personally don't need to worry.

But.

I worry that alot of the abortion debate is not really so much about abortion at all as it is trying to force women to reproduce and conform to a certain lifestyle. Especially white women in 'western' countries.

But you can't know a person's background. Consider me and you can see that some women are not at all suited to birth children. And if you don't care about the woman - consider the horribly deformed child that might result. Would YOU like to be in such a broken container? Life is NOT precious when you are very sick and in pain.

Just some thoughts.

reply to post by Xiamara


for they said, “He is out of His mind.”
And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,”

and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him

how long ago were this written and what are the odds-especially for someone not raised religious or knowing any of these scriptures beforehand?

And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus

He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.

But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also.

CHRISTIANS – THE MOST PERSECUTED PEOPLE GROUP ON EARTH
By Anthony Browne, Europe correspondent of the Times.
Rising nationalism and fundamentalism around the world have meant that Christianity is going back to its roots as the religion of the persecuted. There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith – more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion. Even in supposedly Christian Europe, Christianity has become the most mocked religion, its followers treated with public suspicion and derision.jmm.aaa.net.au...


it should be obvious by many comments here that it is not some rare oddity they're concerned about

Over 40 Million Abortions
in U.S. since 1973
There have been more than 40 million abortions in the twenty six years since the U.S. Supreme Court legalized unrestricted abortion on January 22, 1973.
Except when noted, the following statistics are based on research published by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, special research affiliate of Planned Parenthood Federation of America--the nation's largest provider and promoter of abortion. Estimates for 1997 and 1998 are based on trends from previous years.
www.nrlc.org...

Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.

Originally posted by Xiamara
Rape... That's all I have to say... she did not consent to it so if she gets pregnant who's fault is it then?

I already said that I'm anti-abortion, but I approve of a woman's right to choice in the instance of rape.

As far as I can see it, the unborn child occurring as a result, is just a continuation of the rape.

If a rape victim was forced, by law, to go through with the pregnancy, then I'd suggest that that would make the State an accessory to the crime.

Originally posted by Xiamara
MOST women have reasons as to why they are getting an abortion its not based on responsibility... I assume your a man. Abortion is a woman's choice and hers alone.

You assume correctly about my gender.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few reasons why a woman might want an abortion:

No support from her husband/boyfriend.

Lack of financial stability.

Complete fear and unreadiness for going through with the pregnancy.

Mental problems, such as depression.

Emotional turmoil.

Family reasons.


Those are just a few I can think of, and I have sympathy with some women that have to go through such an unpleasant process.

You see, I'm anti-abortion, but I'm not a ''zealot'' about it.

I can acknowledge the other point of view, and I'm sure ( in most cases ) that it's not a particularly nice decision for a woman to make.

However, any woman of sound mind does know the consequences of having sex.

It's hard to argue against the point that I'm making, in regards to a woman's terrible lack of responsibility when she decides to have sex without accepting the potential consequences of her actions.

reply to post by Rustami


Again, its coincidental, as for Christians being persecuted..Its about time... They crusades killed a lot of non Christians so its about time for some retribution... Just be thankful your not burned at the stake for not believing in a certain religion. Also not to mention the Catholic church has raped so many young boys over the years its amazing they still preach and people believe that they are good...

And yes the crusades happened I've had an argument with some one who said it didn't believe me it did... The Catholics killed many small religions thanks to that...

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


GIVE me stats hard core stats showing who gets more abortions women raped and with cause or women who don't want children... My bet is you found some but they didn't support your argument...


Also so what if they get an abortion if they can live with it then good on them.. Why should you care its not you who had the abortion and until you go through child birth you cannot say it is for no cause.

Birth control is not an exact science accidents happen. My mother was on BC and my father had a condom but 9 months later I was born... Yes there is some risk but its negligible when you are careful. If the woman feels she cannot raise a child or is not okay with adoption then she has every right to have an abortion

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
it takes 2 to make love .... so take your responsability together ok ???
put some plastic on your zizi !! ok ?

LOL.

Guess what ?

It's down to the woman to decide that sexual intercourse takes place.

The same woman that could potentially have a baby growing in her womb, because of her choice.

Considering that the man has no physical attachment to either the mother, nor the potential child, then the woman's responsibility is far greater.


For your information, I do ''put plastic on my zizi'', and if I accidentally get a woman pregnant, then I will take full responsibility for my child, and support it in the best way that I can.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


RAPE people Rape... Do you know how hard it is to say no to a man attacking you with a gun to your head?

Thanks to anyone who got through my long winded above post.

Was going to edit to add something, it will be clearer here.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is - maybe think of the flip side of moral abortions or - something like - moral pregnancies.

Don't you think it would be immoral for someone like me to knowingly create a sick child?

Well, you do see people do this too. There's a thread on here about people taunting a dying child. Child had the same condition as the mother / serious illness.

And it did appear that the parents knew there were at least 50/50 odds that the kid would have this fatal illness.

And of course you hear of sim stories all the time. But - they are spun to make the Sick Parent and resultant Sick Children into heros who are "bravely battling" whatever disease and subsequent difficult life and of course there's all this Famblee Lurve......

But is it really FAIR or RIGHT or MORAL to knowingly have a child you know will have a high chance of suffering?

So I guess that was my point.

Consider "morality" from this sort of opposite angle.

And that's a slippery slope as well. If disabled or sick people are disallowed breeding privileges - how soon before it's expanded to include ugly people? (for lack of a better example). Or people someone or some group deems undesirable?

This is why you have to have choice. Bad things can happen when some authority steps in and begins imposing their moral choices.