Abortion is morally WRONG

reply to post by Monts


I agree with you 110% , people have such little regard to life, abortion is wrong plain and simple. Life is precious, it is murder to abort a child.

As I am sure a lot of people have brought up, "morals" are based on how a person is brought up and how their beliefs are molded while they grow up and are not a realistic way to base decisions for a whole group. Although the OP and a lot of others believe that abortion is wrong, I do not myself. Do I believe it should happen after a certain amount of time passes, no, I do not. Abortion as a whole though, I'm not against and don't feel like it is morally wrong.

Saying that, it doesn't really matter what one person's sense of morality is compared to another's. If you're against something, that's fine. If you're for something, that's fine too. But what we need to realize as a people is that, even if one group believes something immoral or against their set of values, is that it isn't the same for everyone and just because you have faith, beliefs, morals, etc. about a topic, doesn't necessarily mean the other is wrong.

So just because of those who believe they have a "moral" view on something, really is kind of pointless. It doesn't matter what YOU think. What matters is how this view effects others around us, especially here in America, because those views are forced onto people and in some cases used to pass laws which take away what others might consider a freedom. Now if we had a country where the states made their own laws based off of a set of commonsense laws from the government, but allowed states to go into detail about those laws themselves, we'd probably have a country where each state might have their own sets of morals and beliefs compared to others and we'd have a greater range of beliefs which could allow those with the same views to find a state that suits them more while not conforming each state into what the so called "majority" wants. That way we aren't FORCING everyone to believe the same things....like terrorism, but that's for another thread.

I am completely for women to have full say over what they do with their bodies just like a man can have a vasectomy without his wife's permission, but.....considering that the baby inside has it's own set of DNA and probably a different blood type from the mother...can a woman really claim that the baby is her body?

Another thing...what if the woman is having her husband's baby but she does not want a child just yet (for whatever reason) but the husband wants the child...considering the child has got half the husband's DNA shouldn't he have a say?

I'm only saying these things to make a point that this is not a very black and white issue, there are so many factors that can come into play where they would actually shift the boundaries of morality.

Although in the end i would personally would like a woman to make alternative options (give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption) but in the end we can't make people do what they don't want to do. People have to make choices in their lives and live with the consequences.

From my point of view if my wife had an abortion with my child i would end the relationship as i would want my own child to have a chance at life, this may seem harsh to people but like i said, people will make choices and will have to live with the consequences. Unfortunately that's the way things are....

Originally posted by Traydor
I am completely for women to have full say over what they do with their bodies just like a man can have a vasectomy without his wife's permission, but.....considering that the baby inside has it's own set of DNA and probably a different blood type from the mother...can a woman really claim that the baby is her body?

Blood typing is not close to DNA and is based on the father and mothers blood type and genetics. It your mother is type A and father is type O you'll be Type at and if you have children with a woman who is type O its 50/50 for type O...

Originally posted by Traydor
Another thing...what if the woman is having her husband's baby but she does not want a child just yet (for whatever reason) but the husband wants the child...considering the child has got half the husband's DNA shouldn't he have a say?

No... Rape victims and also men don't carry the weight of a child for 9 months go through pain and have absolutely 0 chance of death during pregnancy/labour unless their pregnant wife kills them

Originally posted by Traydor
Although in the end i would personally would like a woman to make alternative options (give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption) but in the end we can't make people do what they don't want to do. People have to make choices in their lives and live with the consequences.

From my point of view if my wife had an abortion with my child i would end the relationship as i would want my own child to have a chance at life, this may seem harsh to people but like i said, people will make choices and will have to live with the consequences. Unfortunately that's the way things are....

Your only looking at ONE scenario there are thousands of cases, there are many different options but some women fear the pain and as a man you will NEVER know what its like to carry a child and the burden placed on you. Women take a risk with pregnancy you could bleed out, complications with the baby, hormonal imbalances and so on. Men have ZERO say in keeping the baby if you want a child find a woman who will have your child or go to a sperm bank. Women give birth and do the hard part your part can be replaced with a turkey baster.

Sorry its frustrates me when men think its half theirs therefore they have a say... If your job can be replaced with a kitchen utensil you have no say.

I'm only saying that the issue of morality is not so black and white and i only discribed a scenario and i'm only saying that in this particullar scenario the man may have some feelings about abortion even if they do not carry the baby for 9 months, to imply that men should 'stay out of it' (emotionally or having an opinion about it) is insensitive and very sexist.

I did afterall say that i support women to have the right to do what she wants with her body and also that nobody can make anyone else do what they don't want to do....but don't even dare suggest that men don't have feelings about abortion (regardless of the situation)....now that is fustrating

btw this is an issue of the morality of abortion so any scenario regarding it is up for discussion

reply to post by Traydor


Well I think morality is situational, think of sex. Rape is immoral yet consensual is moral... Same act, different situations.


Take murder too, Self defense is okay but murder isn't a life is taken both times.

reply to post by Xiamara


I do understand what you are saying but in the end i am allowed to have my own point of view regarding this just like everyone else

reply to post by Traydor


I totally agree your entitled to an opinion, I'm defending mine saying Morality is situational therefore the morallity of abortion is also situational. Just as murder is. There is justifiable death, mercy killings, self defense, and accidental deaths, there fore there is justifiable abortions, rape, incest, genetic disorders, harm to the mother, and so on and so forth.

reply to post by Xiamara


I also respect your point of view too so believe me when i say that i'm more on your side than you think, i just view some aspects a little differently, that's all

Morals like it is continuously said, have only to do with the individual in particular. Even so and if a person thinks its incorrect, that doesnt mean they have to live by that rule. Like it has been said already that morals have also to do with situations. Killing in self defense etc.

A problem I have with the OP, is that it appears to me to be another ignorant male pumping his beliefs about what he thinks woman should do according to his moral beliefs. How about this? My ex had an abortion, and although I didnt want it to happen, it did. However, it was not my choice. I had my input but thats the extent of it. If the child were to have been born, it would have been born to couch hopping parents with no support and little income and with two kids already. How exactly do you take care of a child in that situation? By giving it away right? By choosing who eats this day or that? When she got pregnant I was employed and took care of her, her children, my two teenage sisters in school, and my unemployed father. But then I was injured off the job and lost my job because of that. First went the power, and next went the food. Then we had to make a choice about the pregnancy and whether the baby could survive the pregnancy anyways with what was about to happen to our lives.

Have you ever been in that situation? Have you ever starved so that others wouldn't? Because your opinion holds little weight based on ignorance.

so the next generation would know them,
even the children yet to be born,
and they in turn would tell their children.
Then they would put their trust in God -Psalm78.6

reply to post by Rustami


Would you like to elaborate more on your religious scripture?

reply to post by Rustami


Quoting scripture won't change minds since not everyone has the same beliefs. Although it might help your view, it has no effect on those who do not follow or believe in it. Might just be what backs up your view on it and that's ok. Just pointing out that quoting from any religious text or sounding like you're quoting it, is in no way, a way to change the opinions of others.

reply to post by Monts

I find your post presumptive and illinformed, if not outright ignorant. If you truly think that abortion is the 'easy way out' then you are sadly misinformed and need to go read some more..better still..go and really listen to some women who have had abortions.

You're use of the word "Moral" in your post also seems to be inconsistent with your words, words that to me at least, are more expressive of your own relativist opinions and judgments than a set of higher moral principles in action. Right Action (morality) is primarily an internal calculation based on factors that pertain to an individuals own conscience; its not in law or in opinion and that conscience, to me, is sacrosanct. So you can and have every right to share yor view and say " for me xyz is morally wrong' but you cannot just stand there and say that from a blanket perspective ' it is morally wrong for all people'....you are not God..and you do not have that right.

As a person of conscience, I choose not to attach my personal morality to a shared social or religous morality, despite sharing many values with people and with religious beliefs.
Morality itself, is not a religous concept...it is a spirital concept but even moreso, it is a human process I choose to claim nad nture within myself based on my own experiences and personal truth.

If you have made a choice to align yourself to a religous or social morality, then you have made a choice, one you must own personally and be accountable for, and you cannot decide the morality you have adopted is one or a choice all people must make or adopt, nor is it one that relates to all people...only you as you made the choice. SO in your plea for others to be 'responsibile' for their actions..I would ask the same of you.


On the subject matter....I personally dont care what 'pro choice' groups say or what _they_ say that "women think"...as they dont speak for my morality or for me as an individual woman.

All I do know with any certainty is that *you* personally cannot possibly know nor claim a right to judge what occurs within each individal woman and her mind and heart, and what does occur there is personal and between her conscience, awaress of her needs for right action/morality, and God. So ultimately, its not your business.
Moreso...and while you are pointing the finger at these women and their actions...who or what is pointing back at you and checking and balancing your right action/morality?

In many ( not all ) cases of unplanned pregnancy, especially in teens, women who fall pregnant unexpectedly are found to be incapable of meaningfully regulating their own sexual behaviour, (a common consequence of childhood sexual abuse). Many are, despite what you might think, simply incapeable of 'just saying no', or "disciplining themselves" to not do risk taking behavours. These are compelled behaviours, automatic responses and systemic issues, not social choices. Using morality to blame these women is like blaming a blind person for not being able to see.

You also say anyone having sex is automatically consenting and responsibile....but that is yet another blanket statement and generalised judgment...as even amongst those that think they are, very few are giving informed consent and fewer still retain the capacity for responsibility for the consequences.

I know from my own experience and owing to early CSA, I wasnt capeable of informed consent until I was well over 35...not capeable of saying no..or of having the *full realisation* of my human condition....until I was...and that was only after some years of supported growth and theraputic assistance...not to mention a great deal of divine intervention. I *thought* I knew what I was doing, thought I could handle it, but the truth was I had no idea and couldnt.

Many woman who seek abortions are similarly *functionally* incapeable of making such informed choices about sex and their own lives let alone the lives of infants...its not just an emotional immaturity issue or a lifestyle choice..it is the evidence no such choice was ever consciously made or ever meaningfully existed to be made for that person.

The capacity to make those choices within themself, simply isnt or wasnt present prior to engaging in risk taking behaviour. Yes, the choice itself is there, as it is preexistant- but the capacity of the invidual to access it and make it with full awareness, simply isnt. Choice and decision making capacity is not a blanket standard or one size fits all and its not a case of simple ignorance of morality or ignorance to the choice. It is an incapacity to MAKE it.

That incapacity is different for every woman, and every man....it is shaped by an undeniable history of life experiences that are not 'judgement' fodder for people like yourself....unless that is, you are willing to shoulder the individual accountability and reality of every experience and their burden in full equal measure.

Ironically and sadly, making a decision to abort for many women, IS the first action of real personal moral accountability they ever take. Its the first time they stand up and say ENOUGH and start to take control of their lives and outcomes.

It may be, for the more effected, the only step they ever can and do take in their own moral defence of themselves as human individuals.

Abortion is often the first evidence of many women taking that real responsibility for themselves and their growing knowledge that they are not who they think they are or that they are unwell, or that growing awareness that they are not living conscious lives, or that they are/were incapeable of stopping a cycle of violence and abuse perpetuation and so, incapeable of truly being responsible for their actions.

Its often the first awakening to the wider reality that they are not making their own choices but rather are being propelled through life by cycles of reperpetuated abuse....and instead of that awakening being supported and welcomed, even intensified and supported..they are instead judged and condemned...by religions and society at large... How orwellian!

Taking responsibility for yourself isnt about laying claim to blame or culpability as you have suggsted by your words that it is.

Being ABLE to be responsible ( response-able) means being able to make pro active, *self* and life sustaining choices and making INFORMED decisions that are FREE from habitual or perpetuated cycles of negative pattern behaviours. Being able to respond to life rather than react. That is the basis of truthful FREEDOM.

I look around me today and see very few with that capacity, or where that capacity to exercise truthful freedom is mature enough to be self sustaining in the absence of constant aware support...let alone amongst women in the crisis of unplanned pregnancy who are often already thrice enslaved beings.

Should these women, already enslaved, already condemened to an existance of reliving perpetuated abuses, be further condemened to being what essentially ammounts to brood mares for the system and so held further hostage to the actions of those people that abused them? Is upholding their ensalvement and condemnation of their incapacities really a moral action?

Is it more moral to condem unwanted children to a life of maternal rejection, abandonment or diseased social welfare systems - essentially, to continue the perpetuation of abuse cycles and secure the ensalvement of a new generation for the benefit of an ignorant "wider society" that feeds off them? Morality the word meaning by definition - RIGHT ACTION - can you honestly say that doing that is really a moral stance?

Do you personally know of a half a million people willing to adopt the half a million aborted fetus's each year?
Will you provide for each and every one for the entirity of its life?
No?

Then shut up!

One solution to the numbers of abortions performed each year is to face those issues that allow for that mental and social enslavement to occur...but society doesnt want to do that. It only seeks to blame the incapacitated.

So failing that enormous task everyone wants to judge but no one wants to do anything about, what we do have available right now is the early morning pill..ru486...given within the first week after sex or within the first month while cells are still cells and have yet to transform to fetus or embryonic stages it is very effective and very safe......but no...thanks to the illinformed and p[aniced judgments of well cashed up opposition groups..even this aid for women is removed or judged out of existance as well.

Essentially.."Those that pluck out their eyes, blame them for their blindness!"
You reap, what you have sown....slaves having slaves having slaves. Children having children having children...as gross and as horrible as it is..abortion is one means we have to interupting that cycle!

I too find abortion-as a-flippantcontraception repugnant, even deplorable and I personally find late term abortions utterly wrong and for me, totally unconsciencable. Even as a 15yr old facing this issue I knew a late term 5mth 'proceedure' wasnt 'ok' and gave birth instead...but I was able to.. I had contact with that 'thing' within that told me what MY right action ought to be. I had the capacity to listen to and obey it..I couldnt and wouldnt dare judge another for not having the capcity for that.

I also however, find it in many cases, early term abortions *are* the more merciful option and in some cases, a termination *is* the evidentiary moral and therefore correct action to take.
That is all that word means btw...moral... to act rightly. To make the best 'right' decison you can in the moment.

I see the crisis' that bring women to abortion clinics as even more though, it is a window of opportunity for the free or less enslaved, to aid a woman from enslavement and into freedom....holistically....something drowned out when all that people (refusing to stand equally accountable) can do is condem and judge.

Placing aside judgment and your own personal morality for a more compassionate and holistic moral viewpoint, if the best we can do today, with what we have now, is to limit the suffering of woman and fetus by accepting ru486 and other early first trimester abortion options, then imo, we should do so. To not do so, in my opinion, is not moral..it is to be collborative with those forces that sustain enslavment in our world.


Rosha

dang rosha, you go. vary good argument. i agree and thanks for wrighting that

reply to post by Monts


Come on a thread in which the OP thinks he has the moral superiority of women who have the choice, why are people giving this person stars.

Think critically, not what the bible says, was written by primitive rich men with agendas to control and spread their vile guidelines for life.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.-Daniel11.37

when I had begun to open a pocket size green Gideon NT that a woman had left on the kitchen bar a few days earlier yet before reading anything, I heard an audible voice speak as if sitting beside me to the left that said my name then- “I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish” exceedingly awestruck (previous to this I was saying God and specifically Christian anything was all just something for the weakminded) I quickly stood to my feet turned towards the voice and said yes Lord, then many moons later came across these-

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.-John5.25

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.-2Corinthians5.14

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.-Acts9.3

no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.-1Corinthians12.3

he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.-Luke12.9

Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.-1John5.10

reply to post by LordTacos


Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.' "

It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

These are the Scriptures that testify about me

reply to post by Xiamara


sure see above posts

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.