Abortion is morally WRONG

We ARE animals, we one of the unique species here on earth in that we can empathise with other species themselves, we can build things and seek patterns, that's what makes us difference from our cousins the apes.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

what are the odds?

blaspheming in matters they do not understand. like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct-2Pet2

these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.-Jude1

But that's what faith is, believe a what a bunch of men wrote in a book whether it be Zeus, Odin, Ra, Allah, Yahweh without even questioning it, without thinkning critically - It makes no difference, it's all the retarded guesswork of man's immaturity

again Jesus being raised literally is no guesswork, must I explain to you again how I directly know before reading anything? significant to mention though it was when I had just started to open a NT

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.-1Cor1

reply to post by jontap


Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment-2Pet2

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.-3

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by jontap

 

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment-2Pet2

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.-3

Wow - the abortion issue really is a Christian fundamentalist magnet.

reply to post by Rustami


Sure. I understand that although we are human and have a unique concious ability to empathise and even contenplate our own existence, form rudimentry tools or form language and communiate via the tools of art and text; we are in fact humans, and a species of animal.. That's what separates us from the instinctual species we see around us, that doesn't mean we are not animals. We are a species, cousin of the ape. We are by scientific definition an animal, Deal with and move on or deny and otherwise polite discussion.

If i was to be blaspheming as you say, everytime i debate Religion i would be blaspheming, every time i say "For God's sake" i would be blaspheming, "taking the lords name in vain". So either debate here with valid points instead of using fatuous words like "blaspheming".

A question if i may; do you think YOUR god (that is the God of the Christian Doctrines) made the earth and your body and mind with you in mind, in his image?

Additional question: If your answer is yes, what about other God's; Zeus, Allah and so on?.

reply to post by stellify


And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.-Mal4

For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish,
And those nations shall be utterly ruined.-Is60

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. -Rev12

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.-Rev13

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under-Matt2

A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.-John16

Before a woman goes into labor, she gives birth.
Before she has labor pains, she delivers a child.
Who has heard of such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Can a country be born in one day?
Can a nation be born in a moment.-Is66

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not-Gal4

reply to post by awake_and_aware


again not my words, but absolutely believe they hold the key to,“ Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!”-Luke2

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.-2Pet1

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.-Ecc3

also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live-9

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.-1Cor15

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.-Rev19

reply to post by Rustami


You going to rebut my post or just mindlessly quote lines from an ancient book that has been mistranslated by the idiocy of man?

reply to post by Monts


I agree with you in the case for many abortions, that people simply don't want to take responsibility for a child or for their actions, but I disagree on this notion that it's this reason and only this reason. A woman or child that has been raped/molested has been put in a situation that was beyond their control to start with, that they did not choose or provoke. I do not for one second believe their decision for abortion is based on their unwillingness to take responsibility, they should not be forced to take responsibility for a horrible horrible event in their lives, a crime committed to them.

It is always of sad and unfortunate when life is aborted, however the circumstances are not always black and white. In some cases the mother even has her life threatened, in these cases as well abortion should be an option and it has little to do with them wanting to take responsibility or not.

I don't support abortion in any circumstances, I only support it in the case of rape, incest or if the mothers life is in danger. These situations have not to do with taking responsibility.

Now as for abortion overall, the woman will always have primary control of whats in her body. We can kick and scream and argue all sorts of points, the the baby is with the woman, so unless you support forced feeding and forced labour on woman (at tax payers expense) your reasons are just that. We have seen time and time again measures and attempts to completely outlaw abortion and to somehow control and stop the population for attempting to carry out these acts, but in reality there is little control. Abortion will always be available and the best we can do is preach and put forward our views. Abortion is not up for debate in congress because government is powerless and preventing it. In this light I don't support any government measure to ban abortion outright because its something that unfortunately will occur time and time again.

They say the "pill" changed everything and as did the condom, and they are right. It was not long ago in history that their were attempts, religious and social/moral, to ban these things, but they came about and changed everything. The fact is we don't have control of abortion, and maybe you are aware of this, but I thought it'd be good to make you recognize this fact again.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Rustami

 

You going to rebut my post or just mindlessly quote lines from an ancient book that has been mistranslated by the idiocy of man?

it's like you read my mind....

reply to post by awake_and_aware


I'll repeat, seems you are missing something that has nothing to do specifically with a translation initially anyway, but a real life invisible Spirit being who was obviously in any and all translations witnessed as being raised from the dead who originally had been born of a woman, He said "I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish" in real time reality audible voice

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by awake_and_aware

 

I'm a hearing the idiocy of a man that does'nt have a clue what he is writing?

I see how uncomfortable you must be stepping out from behind the catechism you hide behind - you're asking yourself a question.

The answer to your question is "no".

reply to post by stellify


so lets's believe you and mr riveting man over a supernatural eternal being called the Son of God along with a great cloud of witnesses of men/women throughout history/currently in order to what exactly?? be popular for a few moments? there is no escape, hiding nor clever words that will change the fact of the grave nor who you and everyone will give an accounting, so I would suggest if you're truly sick of conflict and do not wish to live in fear of judgement that you can believe what my testimony and many other men/women who know even the scriptures

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by stellify

 

there is no escape, hiding nor clever words that will change the fact of the grave nor who you and everyone will give an accounting, so I would suggest if you're truly sick of conflict and do not wish to live in fear of judgement that you can believe what my testimony or the scriptures

I'm not in conflict with you - but I love how you lose control of your CAPS button when you're 'tetchy'. You're not that good without the comfort of the quotes you spout, are you?

I don't need to fear judgment - my personal belief framework doesn't have room for an angry, jealous, wrathful, old testament God.

Worry about yourself...looks like you need YOUR attention more than I do.

reply to post by stellify


Jesus is not OT, do you know what your saying? because the accusation makes no sense, show me where I post anything anywhere Mt.Sinai

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.-Gal4

Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”-Heb12

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.-John8

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by stellify

 

so lets's believe you and mr riveting man over a supernatural eternal being called the Son of God along with a great cloud of witnesses of men/women throughout history/currently in order to what exactly?? be popular for a few moments? there is no escape, hiding nor clever words that will change the fact of the grave nor who you and everyone will give an accounting, so I would suggest if you're truly sick of conflict and do not wish to live in fear of judgement that you can believe what my testimony and many other men/women who know even the scriptures

edit on 5-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)

I can't believe you edited your post to make you appear even more blinkered.

I don't believe you really set out to do that.

I would say there's a place for blind faith, but it would be a wise man who would choose the situations to exhibit that in.

I hate to say it, and this may come across as being slightly personal, but I am personally turned off by your methodology for debate and feel that your approach is reminiscent of the 'lecturing' attitude that alienates many people from religion.

I am sure that many people are turned off by the fact that those who quote the scriptures, cannot bridge the gap between them and modern life. They cannot bring meaning to them and therefore cannot fully translate their value.

This is why spouting scripture in response to a topic on abortion in the modern world does not work for me. I'd rather your turned your attention elsewhere as this is a topic on abortion - not a forum for religious conversion.

reply to post by stellify

I can't believe you edited your post to make you appear even more blinkered.

don't be too flattered I edit posts always right away especially when I personally write something, yes I hate typing o darn I'm "more blinkered", just rare in this case also having such a ready and waiting professional attacker poster responder type thing?

I would say there's a place for blind faith, but it would be a wise man who would choose the situations to exhibit that in.

hearing an audible voice say " I am Jesus" is blind faith?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.-John5

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. -1Cor3

I hate to say it, and this may come across as being slightly personal, but I am personally turned off by your methodology for debate and feel that your approach is reminiscent of the 'lecturing' attitude that alienates many people from religion.

I am SHOCKED!

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction-Jas1

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.-Rev11

I am sure that many people are turned off by the fact that those who quote the scriptures, cannot bridge the gap between them and modern life. They cannot bring meaning to them and therefore cannot fully translate their value.

the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.-2Tim3

the scriptures which testify of Me.-John5

This is why spouting scripture in response to a topic on abortion in the modern world does not work for me. I'd rather your turned your attention elsewhere as this is a topic on abortion - not a forum for religious conversion.

I bet, how bout I'll stop when you stop spouting what I don't agree with? has sex men, women, wombs, babies life (not talking materialisticaly nor technically) changed? God? do you really think it'll be alright with the wholesale for profit and apparently used by shear numbers alone as a contraceptive?

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?-1Cor6

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.-Luke1

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by stellify

 

I can't believe you edited your post to make you appear even more blinkered.

don't be too flattered I edit posts always right away especially when I personally write something, yes I hate typing o darn I'm "more blinkered", just rare in this case also having such a ready and waiting professional attacker poster responder type thing?

I would say there's a place for blind faith, but it would be a wise man who would choose the situations to exhibit that in.

hearing an audible voice say " I am Jesus" is blind faith?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.-John5

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. -1Cor3

I hate to say it, and this may come across as being slightly personal, but I am personally turned off by your methodology for debate and feel that your approach is reminiscent of the 'lecturing' attitude that alienates many people from religion.

I am SHOCKED!

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction-Jas1

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.-Rev11

I am sure that many people are turned off by the fact that those who quote the scriptures, cannot bridge the gap between them and modern life. They cannot bring meaning to them and therefore cannot fully translate their value.

the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.-2Tim3

the scriptures which testify of Me.-John5

This is why spouting scripture in response to a topic on abortion in the modern world does not work for me. I'd rather your turned your attention elsewhere as this is a topic on abortion - not a forum for religious conversion.

I bet, how bout I'll stop when you stop spouting what I don't agree with? has sex men, women, wombs, babies life (not talking materialisticaly nor technically) changed? God? do you really think it'll be alright with the wholesale for profit and apparently used by shear numbers alone as a contraceptive?

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?-1Cor6

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.-Luke1

edit on 5-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)

Then the light of that white heaven broke upon my vision, that breadth of mere white which is indeed almost the definition of Paradise, since it means purity and also means freedom.

GK Chesterton, On Lying in Bed (Comic Essay)


Those that we call monsters are not so to God, who sees in the immensity of His work the infinite forms that He has comprehended therein; and it is to be believed that this figure which astonishes us has relation to some other figure of the same kind unknown to man. From His all wisdom nothing but good, common, and regular proceeds, but we do not discern the disposition and relation:

Quod crebro videt, non miratur, etiamsi, cur fiat, nescit. Quod ante non vidit, id, si evenerit, ostentum esse censet. [“What he often sees he does not admire, though he be ignorant how it comes to pass. When a thing happens he never saw before, he thinks that it is a portent.”—Cicero, De Divin., ii. 22.]


Whatever falls out contrary to custom we say is contrary to nature, but nothing, whatever it be, is contrary to her. Let, therefore, this universal and natural reason expel the error and astonishment that novelty brings along with it.

Michel de Montaigne - Of a Monstrous Child

You will never find it if you seek it. You will never find it if you run after it. You will never find it if your intention is in seeing the beauty of the earth, in seeing the light on the water, in seeing the perfect line of a mountain, and you hope through seeing, to find that. You will never find it because you cannot find that through anything, through your sacrifice, through your worship, through your meditation, through your virtue. You will never come upon it because your motive is all wrong, because you want to find that, not in living, but somewhere else. You must establish right relationship with man first, which means you must know what it means to love, what it means to be compassionate, what it means to be generous when you have a great deal, what it means to share with another the little that you have, to establish this marvelous order in living, daily living.

Krishnamurti in India 1970-71,

Well, beatniks for one, folk singers and motorbike riders. Y'know. All those hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cats. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!

Screenplay – Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Johnny Depp)

Make sense?

Nope...because it's just some random postings of other peoples' words. Just like yours.

You've bored me off this thread, jesustroll.

Originally posted by Rustami

just rare in this case also having such a ready and waiting professional attacker poster responder type thing?

Thanks for the compliment.

Does this mean we're friends?

reply to post by Rustami

I'm a hearing the idiocy of a man that does'nt have a clue what he is writing?

Was this edited out? Removed? Why?

Rustami, you know it would be nice to show your intelligence by actually debating rather than quoting instead of blindly claiming my idiocy.

We can quote literature we love too.

Here's some quotes from Christopher Hitchens:-

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
— Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything)

"Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake."
— Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything)

"The Bible may, indeed does, contain a warrant for trafficking in humans, for ethnic cleansing, for slavery, for bride-price, and for indiscriminate massacre, but we are not bound by any of it because it was put together by crude, uncultured human mammals."
— Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything)

"We owe a huge debt to Galileo for emancipating us all from the stupid belief in an Earth-centered or man-centered (let alone God-centered) system. He quite literally taught us our place and allowed us to go on to make extraordinary advances in knowledge."
— Christopher Hitchens

See, i'm just mindlessly quoting Christopher Hitchens without any offer of personal opinion or reason for doing so.

We are having a polite discourse here, but you seem to pollute it with your quotes that go without commentry or reason.

Originally posted by christian39
reply to post by newBodyoldSoul

 

I am sorry that your fiance was raped. Happy that she called the authorities, but what did the child do that was so wrong that its life was ended??

edit on 27/11/10 by christian39 because: spelling

WHAT??? I actually had to read your post several times there to make sure that I had read it correctly...What had the child done? It wasn't a child, it was a fetus, created by an act of violence. So what would you suggest, that the poor woman who has already suffered the trauma of rape, should just put her life on hold for the next nine months and then give birth to a child, what and then spend the rest of her life looking after it, with the constant reminder of that terrible act perpetrated against her?? You'll probably say what about adoption, but I would still question why she should have to go through a pregnancy, which could endanger her life and most certainly have a big impact on her life, just to satisfy some pathetic moral viewpoint. Nevermind the morals of the evil person who carried out the rape, just vilify the woman.

Your post really makes me turn against religion with such a crass, stupid and nasty attitude like that!