Abortion is morally WRONG

reply to post by mauricemsps


Who exactly are these "superior spirits"? Your post assumes a knowledge that a "living" person cannot possibly have and is just your own, very skewed perception of a doctrine that not everyone accepts and as such has little value in the greater scheme of things.

That's one thing I agree with Monts about, the abortion debate is no place for religion!

Originally posted by Monts
Using the "my-body my-choice" argument in a high-end abortion debate will simply get you laughed at.
If you say that a woman's right to her body, i.e. our right to control our bodies, overrides the right to life, then you are being totally paradoxical and illogical,

It certainly is not illogical as it is evident everyday. Woman have choices to take the pill if they want, which essentially kills off the process of pregnancy before it has a chance to develop, millions of men use condoms, they prevent the natural cycle of birth from occuring. Then there are 1000's of woman going in for abortions a year, and it is completely their choice.

The fact is, woman hold all the cards to how they deal with pregnancy, and unless there is a law out there forcing woman to go through with pregnancy (don't known how that works in first place) woman do hold that right.

You may not personally see woman having a right of control over their pregnancy but reality dictates that they do. I don't support abortion if it does not involve the serious cases of rape, incest or the mothers life, but at the same time I understand I am not of the position to dictate what another woman does in her pregnancy. Simply don't, regardless of what I may think is right or wrong.

And you are completely out of your mind if you think forcing a 13 year old who had been raped or molested by a relative or otherwise to go on with the pregnancy. You will not gain much sympathy from the mainstream if thats your mentality.

reply to post by Xiamara


Xiamara,

If you do nothing else, before you decide one way or the other on this issue read C.S. Lewis's book called Mere Christianity. Engage your intellect, not your emotions and have the courage to be gut level honest with yourself.

Satan would like as many souls to perish as possible and trust me, they don't make an SPF that will protect your soul from the Father of Lies.

reply to post by exnavyvp


It's nice your thinking of us heathens, I'll have you know my father was a catholic until the day he died, so I do know about the catholic religion, I know about hell quite well, I have an Anglican grandmother, and my protestant aunt uncle and cousin. If I'm going to be reading an analysis on Christianity I'll stick with Philip Pullman's "his dark materials", And if I want the classics and/or hard core literary reading I quite prefer Charlotte Bronte, Tolkien, a "Man and his symbols" By Jung, Or perhaps look at the true teachings of Christ something long forgotten by the church. I'm just not a fan of C.S Lewis.

reply to post by mauricemsps

Abortion is, according to the Superior Spirits, a heinous crime.

Your argument for abortion can be deduced down to your belief in the divine.

You infer to God in most every remark....

Most of us have the privilege of living in a secular society; in which the church is separated from the state. Religious dogma is to be treated as a "belief". This means your myopic sense of morality and human ethics (derived from your Belief in God) can be challenged by those who do not believe in a divine creator (or those who don't want this dogma intervening with society)

We have the freedom to debate in the public arena for what's better for humanity, what's good for a stable society whilst still maintaining one's sense of empathy and compassion.

Those without the belief in religion therefore often have a different approach to ethics. We don't infer the supernatural, we just use our intelligence and compassion and try to act rationally.

For instance, i think it would be morally sound and ethical to abort a baby that was going to cause death to the host, what's your take on this?

By supporting abortion, i'm not saying "abuse the system, terminate babies you don't want". You have to take an ethical, reasoned decision and of course it is up to debate. And advice on contraception should be a must.

But please don't infer your belief in God, Your dogma is not fit enough for society. If we still lived by the wishes of your God genocide, sexism would still be advocated.

"The data clearly shows what we have long suspected: that abortion is harmful rather than helpful to women," said Elliot Institute director Dr. David Reardon, one of several researchers working on the study..example, found that women who had abortions were three-and-a-half times more likely to die within the next year as women who carried their pregnancies to term..They also presented studies that found higher rates of depression, mental illness, miscarriages and substance abuse among post-abortive women compared to women who gave birth.."We can't expect an immediate change in attitudes, of course, but I'm confident that we were able to plant some seeds www.afterabortion.org...

A conspiracy of silence seems to surround the well-documented excess of suicide deaths among women with a history of abortion.Dr. Barry Garfinkel, head of the University of Minnesota's Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Department, surveyed teenagers to determine what factors contributed to depression, stress, and thoughts of suicide. The study found that girls who had abortions were four times as likely to attempt suicide as girls who had not aborted.
"Suicide More Likely Among Aborted Teens" National Right to Life News 4 Apr. 2, 1987

Dr. Carl L. Tishler found that post-abortion teenagers are more likely to commit suicide on or near the anniversary of their abortions than at any other time.
Carl L. Tishler, Ph.D., Adolescent Suicide Attempts Following Elective Abortion: A Special Case of Anniversary Reaction Pediatrics 670-671 Nov 1981 realchoice.0catch.com...

(updated April 2010)
A report released by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) shows that the suicide rate among teen girls and young women has tripled in the past 25 years, despite an overall drop in suicide rates across the United States.

NIH reports that suicide is now the third leading cause of death among American young people, and the sixth leading cause of death for children between the ages of 5 and 14 www.physiciansforlife.org...

It is also worth noting the suicide rate among women in China is the highest in the world. Indeed, 56 percent of all female suicides occur in China, mostly among young rural women.(12) It is also the only country where more women die from suicide than men. For women under 45, the suicide rate is twice as high as that of Chinese men. Government officials are reported to be at a loss for an explanation.

Traditionally, Chinese families placed a high value on large families, especially in rural communities. But after the death of Mao Tse-Tung, who also valued large families, China instituted its brutal one child policy. This population control effort, encouraged by governments and family planning organizations from the West, has required the widespread use of abortion--including forced abortion--and infanticide, especially of female babies. Given the known link between abortion and suicide, can there be any doubt that maternally-oriented Chinese women who are coerced by their families and communities to participate in these atrocities are more likely to commit suicide? www.abortiontv.com...

reply to post by Rustami

The data clearly shows what we have long suspected: that abortion is harmful rather than helpful to women," said Elliot Institute director Dr. David Reardon, one of several researchers working on the study..example, found that women who had abortions were three-and-a-half times more likely to die within the next year as women who carried their pregnancies to term..They also presented studies that found higher rates of depression, mental illness, miscarriages and substance abuse among post-abortive women compared to women who gave birth.."We can't expect an immediate change in attitudes, of course, but I'm confident that we were able to plant some seeds

Well, all of the women I've known of, who have had terminations have not displayed any of these traits and they're all still alive many, many years later, with no signs of depression or suicidal tendancies and all have happy, family lives, with many going on to have children when they were in committed relationships and those who already had children, leading productive meaningful lives. Though I do know someone who had serious complications in late pregnancy, after being advised when she first became pregnant that she may be susceptible to problems, but she declined the abortion, then sadly had a stillbirth and then required a full hysterectomy...she never really got over that and wished she'd taken medical advice in the first place, at least she wouldn't have required hormone replacement medication from age 32...

And what about women who have given birth, then have a termination of a subsequent pregnancy? What does the study say about them? Do they come under the banner of women who have given birth or post-abortive women, because technically they're both...So I wouldn't believe too much of that study as it seems to be flawed.

And as for the last sentence in that paragraph I quoted..."but I'm confident we were able to plant some seeds" The irony there would actually be quite funny, if this were not such a serious subject...

reply to post by Rustami


And I forgot the obvious, other side of the coin as well. Postnatal depression, which affects 10-15 in every 100 women and can have serious repercussions:

This leaflet from the Royal College of Psychiatrists gives a lot of information on this very common effect of childbirth!

By the way, although I am pro-choice, I do believe that both men and women should take responsibility in relation to sexuality, and I do not agree that abortion should be treated like another contraceptive option. However, I am also aware that, rape/medical issues aside, we are all human, and that we do make mistakes, whether we are 14 or 40, and that the decision to terminate a pregnancy due to a "mistake" should not be taken lightly, but ultimately the law should allow individuals to be able to make that decision, and also (hopefully) to learn from it and take more responsibility in the future.

For many women, it is a life changing event with significant physical, emotional, and spiritual consequences. Most women who struggle with past abortions say that they wish they had been told all of the facts about abortion and its risks.

over 80 percent say they would have carried to term under better circumstances or with the support of loved ones, over 60 percent report having felt "forced" to have the abortion by others or circumstances, and approximately 40 percent were still hoping to discover some alternative to abortion when going for counseling at the abortion clinic. www.abortionfacts.com...

but oh! thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime. en.wikipedia.org...

98% of abortions are for reasons other than rape, incest, or the mother’s life.

40% of abortions are performed on women who have aborted other babies previously.

One third of abortions are performed on teenagers without their parents’ knowledge or consent.
The heart of an unborn baby begins to beat at 18 days after conception.

2 million American couples are waiting to adopt babies. www.jesus-is-savior.com...

Perhaps one reason for the strong abortion/suicide link exists in the fact that in many ways abortion is like suicide. A person who threatens suicide is actually crying out for help. So are women who contemplate abortion. Both are in a state of despair. Both are lonely. Both feel faced by insurmountable odds.

Like the suicide clinics described above, abortion clinics also exploit desperate people. They promise to release clients from the darkness of their despair. They appeal to our consumer society's demand for instant solutions to all our problems. They pose as places of compassion, but they are actually reaping huge profits through the harvest of the lonely, frightened, and confused people who are "unwanted" by society. In place of life, they offer the "compassion" of death.

Granting the wish for suicide or abortion is not an aid to desperate people. It is abandonment. It is a false compassion that protects us from getting entangled in the "personal problems" of others. It is "cheap love." www.abortionfacts.com...

One study of 46,500 school-age mothers found that two-thirds of the girls were impregnated by adult fathers with a median age of 22. These are men who prey on young girls and then try to hide their crimes with abortion.

Child abuse rates were to drop due to the elimination of unwanted children. But the figures show a 331 percent increase in child abuse in two decades. Sanctioning and even encouraging parents to kill their offspring has clearly devalued children born or unborn.

We were told abortion would "empower" women and let them make their own choices. But research has shown that 80 percent of women are pressured by their husbands or boyfriends or by their parents to abort their baby. Is this empowerment? www.hoshuha.com...

Like the Hippocratic Oath, which also vows to "never do harm", it is a reminder that the physician's role is to heal, not to harm. While many surgical procedures carry the risk of harm, their intent is to provide healing for the patient. The explicit intent of abortion, however, is to harm the embryo or fetus to death.From an ethical standpoint, it results in the violent destruction of a living human being. From a technical standpoint, it is a blind procedure which results in the forceful evacuation of the woman's uterus. Warren Hern is one of the most well-known abortionists in the United States. His book Abortion Practice remains the only single-author abortion textbook in publication. In it, he describes the abortion procedure this way..sharp cutting-tip.. collection bottle..
starves..scrape.. seizing a leg or arm and twisting it until it tears off and can be pulled out of the uterus. This will continue until only the head remains. Finally the skull is crushed and also pulled out. The body parts must then be reassembled to ensure that the entire baby has been removed..delivered feet first and face down. The child’s body is then pulled through the birth canal, but the head (too large to pass through the cervix) is left inside. With arms and legs exposed (and likely flailing), the abortion provider then inserts blunt surgical scissors into the base of the fetal skull and spreads the tips apart. A suction catheter is inserted into the skull and the brain is sucked out. The skull collapses www.abort73.com...

Every new life begins at conception. This is an irrefutable fact of biology. It is true for animals and true for humans. When considered alongside the law of biogenesis – that every species reproduces after its own kind – we can draw only one conclusion in regard to abortion. No matter what the circumstances of conception, no matter how far along in the pregnancy, abortion always ends the life of an individual human being. www.abort73.com...

Sir Albert Lilley, widely considered the "Father of Fetology", and unabashedly pro-life (as anyone with his vast knowledge of fetal development should be) makes some remarkable statements about fetal pain..By the same token we lack any proof that animals feel pain. However, to judge from their responses, it seems charitable to assume they do. Were this not so there would be no point in having an organization like the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and I for one would be unhappy to think we would withhold from the human fetus a charitable consideration we were prepared to extend to animals. www.abort73.com...

"There is a great deal at stake here. When the public learns that the causal link between abortion and breast cancer has been downplayed by the scientific community- for reasons that are idealogical rather than factual -- the feeling of betrayal will be strong." stopabortionbreastcancer.org...

reply to post by destination now


Of course it is a complex issue...

The point is in asking the question as to why the unborn must be killed when they are totally innocent.

In each one of those situations and criteria listed above, how many of them is the child directly responsible for?
If someone where to kill a family member who was born because "they cannot support them so they are better off dead for their own, and my own good", they would be thrown into prison, or maybe even executed without a second thought.

Both the fetus, and the child are living, human beings. Both are dependent on the mother for their basic needs.

So why on earth is it OK to kill the fetus and not the child?

Obviously, it shouldn't be OK in either case, as both are innocent, and their suffering is the cause of problems that are totally out of their control- but apparently it is ok for them to suffer the consequence of being killed.

Again, the question, as I've stated before, is howcome the consequences of problems seem to be focused on and are trying to be fixed instead of the root cause of the problem?

If you keep cutting off the stem of the weed without unrooting it, it is going to keep growing back.... but I guess thats ok because the weed is a weed.

Unborn children are HUMAN BEINGS!

It absolutely amazes me how the difference between the rights of absolutely nothing, to the rights of a full fledged-human person are separated by a few inches. Hence why the doctor must kill the fetus while it is in the womb- as soon as it comes out alive, it is a human being with the same rights as you and me, and its murder.

The point is not to make any kind of law to prohibit abortions- the point is to make the point that nobody should be having them in the first place!

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Have you ever pondered the idea that maybe one of the reasons you are for abortion is because that religion is against it?

I think that secularism and atheism are dogmas in themselves by pitting their "non-believers" on the opposite side of "believers" in many moral dilemmas... simply because agreeing with believers on a certain issue might put one at risk of being classified as a believer themselves.

Think for a moment... If Christians was as hardliner for pro-abortion as they are in reality for anti-abortion, would you still be pro-abortion? If so... to the same degree you are now?

The point I'm trying to make is to think about the emotions that surround your position as a pro-abortionist. Are they ALL rational, logical, and fair conclusions?
Or are they at least somewhat driven by your anti-theistic attitude?

reply to post by Monts


And you failed to answer a single question I asked! You just continue to spout the same emotional, unreasoned moralistic and judgmental views without thinking about the consequences for all of the other people involved.

Consider this scenario, it happened to someone I knew and as such I saw the whole thing unfold. A married woman with 3 children ages 12, 11 and 9. Her husband decides to up and leave her, she is devastated, as are the kids, he wants nothing more to do with them and moves away. She slowly starts to get her life back on track, working full time to pay the mortgage etc, but she's been with the company less than 2 yrs so is not entitled to many of the benefits, full sick pay, full maternity pay etc, yes she qualifies for the statutory levels but that amounts to about £60 per week, her mortgage is £475.00 per month and that's before she pays the utility bills and buys food and clothes for her 3 kids.

She was really depressed and feeling really low, so to cheer her up, some friends suggested she should have a night out, she went and had a really good time and even got chatted up by some random bloke, which made her feel a lot better. So as she had received such a good confidence boost, she decided to go out with the girls again, only this particular night she had a couple too many drinks, decided to go back to a guy's flat and had sex with him, they did use condoms, but obviously there was a problem because just over 2 weeks later she had missed her period. She was totally sick with worry, she totally berated herself for doing what she had done, but it was too late. She didn't even know the guy's full name and couldn't even remember his address...And yes, before the morality police jump on me, she accepts that it was a totally irresponsible thing to do, she realises that she shouldn't have had as much to drink, but it was done. She went straight to her GP who was totally sympathetic and arranged the termination, because her GP knew what the outcome would be if this woman were forced to continue this pregnancy, she would be unable to continue working and on statuory maternity pay would fall into arrears with her mortgage, placing her and her 3 children at risk of homelessness. Adoption would not have been viable as the woman would have had to carry the child and the amount of gossip from neighbours would be unbearable, which would lead to her children being bullied at school (I can just imagine some of the taunts the kids would probably get) and there was no way she could have kept the child, she was on her own with 3 kids already, and would lose everything she had...

After the termination all she could think about was how relieved she was, in her words "it was like a tonne weight being lifted off of my shoulders"

She learnt from the experience though and decided from that point on that she was just going to focus entirely on her 3 kids, making sure they had a good life, and has never had a boyfriend or sexual encounter since. She does go out from time to time, but she's always the sensible one and will only ever have one or two drinks, if she drinks at all, in fact she usually takes her car (which she managed to buy about 1yr after that event)

So another question for you Monts, what would you have suggested she did? None of the standard rhetoric though please, real, useful, practical suggestions as to what else she could have done in that situation, and remember to put yourself in her shoes, put yourself in her kids shoes and answer from there.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
I don't support abortion if it does not involve the serious cases of rape, incest or the mothers life, but at the same time I understand I am not of the position to dictate what another woman does in her pregnancy. Simply don't, regardless of what I may think is right or wrong.

Are you saying you don't care what effect the pregnancy has on the mother's life, so long as it is not going to kill her?

reply to post by Monts


Again, i agree with Destination's obervation of your clear lack of an argument and repeatition.

I think that secularism and atheism are dogmas in themselves

Already been discussed. Atheism is not a religion, Atheism does not have dogma.

The point I'm trying to make is to think about the emotions that surround your position as a pro-abortionist. Are they ALL rational, logical, and fair conclusions?

Or are they at least somewhat driven by your anti-theistic attitude?

Are you really claiming that my support of abortion stems from my hatred for religion? That i'm really that much of a contrarian?

I'm just against weak arguments and pathethic piety as the main source of a religious person's case. Whether it be a religious or non-religios debate.

Just because someone's an atheist doesn't automatically assume they disagree with any religious persons views on ethics and law - There are many right-wing atheists, granted, most are liberal. But just because you are atheist doesn't mean you HAVE to support abortion.

Please go away, and come back when you have a decent case.

"Fetus" Latin for unborn baby.

• 18 days from conception, a baby's heart begins to beat, and by 21 days the heart is pumping blood through a closed circulatory system.

• At 4 weeks from conception, a baby's eye, ear, and respiratory systems begin to form.

• At 6 weeks from conception a baby's brainwaves can be detected. www.straight-talk.net...

60% of all abortions happen up to 8 weeks, with the majority in the sixth week and beyond. clinicquotes.com...

At eight weeks most of the features of the adult are visible, when it is referred to as a fetus. During the first few weeks, it is neither male nor female. However, a small group of cells, called the "indifferent gonads" begin to form, that are capable of becoming ovaries or testicles. At the same time, other internal features of both sexes develop, the Mullerian (female) ducts and the Wolffian (male) ducts. www.gender.org.uk...

Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children). Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100-199% of the federal poverty level.

Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15-17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18-19 obtain 11%, and teens under age 15 obtain 0.4%.

Women in their twenties account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25-29 obtain 24%. www.guttmacher.org...

It is certainly no secret that this sort of self-policing never works in environments where large amounts of money are involved. In this case, the result is that the corpses of children killed by elective abortion are now marketed like old car parts salvaged from the local junkyard. Rhetoric like "site fees," "donations," and "retrieval reimbursement costs" are simply code words designed to conceal that fact. www.lifedynamics.com...

Percentage of Pregnancies Aborted by Country
(countries listed by name)

compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 25 April 2010 www.johnstonsarchive.net...

reply to post by Rustami


Quoting from a selection of links is not going to change my mind, or anyone else who has the same viewpoint. I pose the same question to you as I did to Monts regarding the scenario I posted above. Exactly what was this woman supposed to do without causing serious harm to her family, without stating the obvious that she should have refrained from sex, she knew that, she made a mistake. What would you suggest she did? Same as before, practical, useful suggestions whilst thinking about her existing children and situation.

reply to post by destination now


Yes! I'm very interested to hear your opinion Rustami, your own argument rather than quote mining websites and/or your doctrines.

my own experience, natural conviction after the fact, words and testimony meant nothing, scriptures meant nothing and the words/stats of other people that most everyone would consider non-"religious" that are seemingly authoritive or experienced also on the subject meant nothing but now you both want to know what I would do in her shoes? in simple basic terms-ask for forgiveness(she obviously has a natural basic conviction), avoid that situation again like it's the the plague and hell (lots of committed relationships with children out there been going on since creation) and move on. of course we all make mistakes but it's no mistake young women/men are committing suicide over it along with all the other bs, so if all these gutwrenching statistics of utter hopelessness don't stir the heart regarding something that is obviously seriously not right, I really don't know what could, would you want your son/daughter or parents to go through this, is that a dumb question?

More than 50 million babies have been slaughtered in America since the Supreme Court's ruling: more than the total loss of life in every American military conflict from the War of Independence through Desert Storm

Originally posted by Rustami
my own experience, natural conviction after the fact, words and testimony meant nothing, scriptures meant nothing and the words/stats of other people that most everyone would consider non-"religious" that are seemingly authoritive or experienced also on the subject meant nothing but now you both want to know what I would do in her shoes? in simple basic terms-ask for forgiveness(she obviously has a natural basic conviction), avoid that situation again like it's the the plague and hell (lots of committed relationships with children out there been going on since creation) and move on. of course we all make mistakes but it's no mistake young women/men are committing suicide over it along with all the other bs, so if all these gutwrenching statistics of utter hopelessness don't stir the heart regarding something that is obviously seriously not right, I really don't know what could, would you want your son/daughter or parents to go through this, is that a dumb question?

More than 50 million babies have been slaughtered in America since the Supreme Court's ruling: more than the total loss of life in every American military conflict from the War of Independence through Desert Storm

edit on 15-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)

Not a rude question. Please take this as I intend it and that is to understand you better.

Is English your first language?

reply to post by stellify


yepski, and failed the class since kindergarten I think, oh the shame...