Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

reply to post by denynothing


And at Farm Hall, Godmanchester in Cambridgeshire which you are referring to on their third day there in July 1945 Diebner and Heisenberg discussed the possibility their conversations were being bugged by hidden microphones.

Heisenberg hammed it up and pretended to have always been opposed to development of nuclear weapons, however in 2005 the Russians declassified KGB files of the Harnack Haus conference in July 1942 at which Heisenberg was a passionate advocate for nuclear weapons... all of which points to the fact at least one or two scientists at Farm Hall were play acting for the microphones.

The fact is that another scientist Fritz Houtermanns who went over to the Soviets actually calculated the correct critical mass for Uranium 235 and for Plutonium 239 in October 1941 and circulated this in a peer review paper to Heisenberg. Nor for that matter was Heisenberg the leader of the German atomic bomb project... That was Diebner for German Army Ordnance (Heereswaffenamt).

At Farm Hall when Heisenberg declared in August 1945 that the neutron cross section demanded a warhead of 2 tons, chemist Otto Hahn corrected Heisenberg asking why previously he had always said it was only about 50 kilograms? .... further proof that Heisenberg was feigning ignorance.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Harteck disclosed after the war that the heavy water shipment on the Hydro ferry was a low concentration decoy shipment and the actual shipment went by road and took six weeks to reach Germany.

Wrong again actually

In 2005, an expedition retrieved a barrel (numbered "26") from the bottom of the lake.[20] Its contents of heavy water matched the concentration noted in the German records, and confirmed that the shipment was not a decoy

Recent investigation of production records at Norsk Hydro and analysis of an intact barrel that was salvaged in 2004 revealed that although the barrels in this shipment contained water of pH 14 — indicative of the alkaline electrolytic refinement process — they did not contain high concentrations of D2O.[23] Despite the apparent size of shipment, the total quantity of pure heavy water was limited, with most barrels only containing between 1/2–1% pure heavy water, confirming the success of the Operation Gunnerside raid in destroying the higher purity heavy water

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by mad scientist


No it is not completely backward at all...your understanding is.

You are trying to compare yourr flawed understanding of postwar H-bomb methodology with the Schumann Trinks concept. Another name for the Schumann Trinks weapon is Plasma Pinch ignition which is a concept the Manhattan Project was also aware of in 1942.

Fusion is created by causing a deuteron beam (X-rays) external to the fissile target (Uranium).

To create a Deuteron beam (X-rays) you have to collide a stream of molten Lithium-6 with Deuterium. The collision strips electrons from the Lithium and creates a powerful electrical charge called a Plasma. This Plasma then excites the discharge of neutrons from the Deuterium through collision of Protons with other Protons.

The condition requires Lithium above temperatures of 800 degrees Celsius to collide with Deuterium at pressures of at least 100,000 atmospheres.

The Nazis figured in a series of experiments from 1941 by Dr Otto Haxel and then from 1942-43 by Schumann & Trinks how to focus a supersonic jet of molten Lithium onto a Uranium 233 target, coated with Lithium Deuteride.

They did this with two opposed Hollow Charge (shaped charge) explosives with conical Lithium-6 liners. When detonated the molten lithium was heated in an instant to 24,000 degrees C and the Uranium target was compressed by 100,000 atmospheres. The Lithium atoms collided with Deuterium atoms at 11 kilometres per second causing a flash of X-rays. These excited the emission of neutrons from the Deuterium. The highly localised neutron flux exceeded the neutron flux required in a critical mass of uranium to caused detonation.

Furthermore returning to your original point modern H-bombs begin as you say with small atomic weapons, but just how do you think they trigger those small A-bombs?

They are not 64 kilograms of Uranium (critical mass) or 4.5kg-9kg of Plutonium either being carted around in Trident missiles. They are miniature pellets of Plutonium coated with Scandium-Trittide ignited in a Plasma pinch by an X-ray laser to cause exactly the same kind of fusion ignited fissile weapon as developed by the Nazis in 1943...only difference is instead of hollow charge explosives, now they just fire X-rays from a charged klystron tube at the target (ie X-ray machine)

Duh - modern nuclear weapons are today ignited by the same process only the method has altered due to technological improvement.

reply to post by hellobruce


There is no dispute that the barrel recovered from the lake bed matched the manifest. The point which you fail to understand is that Harteck forearmed with information sent on the ferry only the low purity Heavy water.

After sinking of the Hydro ferry a truck convoy carried a large load of highly enriched Heavy Water to the coast and reached the laboratory of Dr Karl Wirtz six weeks later. This is simple fact however much you refuse to accept it.

The Germans had more than one source of Deuterium. In fact they had seven and unfortunately I have not got those details with me at the moment however there were two Heavy water plants in Norway: Vermork and Saheim. At Northern Italy there was the Montecanteni Heavy Water plant. In Silesia there was the IG Farben plant. Then there were at least three other plants established in Germany itself including the Beck Plant, using three different approaches to enrichment of Deuterium.

Your response seems to indicate a belief that the Germans required Heavy water to create a nuclear pile and thus obtain Plutonium from Neptunium 239, but this was not the case.

The Germans were experimenting with use of Plasma Physics to transmute elements as early as 1925. Schumann and Trinks for example specified in their surviving wartime patents use of Uranium 233 and since U233 can only be harvested in useful quantity by transmutation (either by Nuclear Reactors or by Plasma physics) then it automatically infers German contemplation of transmutation of Thorium to Protactinium 233. Indeed KGB files declassified in 2005 reveal that Heisenberg was an advocate for this method and OSS reports from Switzerland in 1944 note that Heisenberg was a consultant to Dr Walter Dallenbach on a large particle accelerator project at Bisingen. That device was captured by ALSOS (1269th Engineers Battalion) in late April 1945.

The sinking of the Hydro ferry and recovery of one drum corresponding to the manifest confirms absolutely nothing... Zilch, zip nada... asta la vista baby

reply to post by Lawgiver


You raise a good question Lawgiver.

There are two questions please let me paraphrase them my way:

1) $64,000 question if they had nukes why did they not use them and not win the war plus the political implications of cover up and why if they did have them... that is one question.

2) The question of whether and how Germany had the technical capability.

As to point 2 Germany was more far more advanced in nuclear physics than USA or indeed any other country at the start of WW2. The flow of knowledge went the other way with the influx of German trained Jewish scientists who emigrated to USA before the war being incorporated into the Manhattan project. Indeed it is not generally known but the Plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki was created by a team of expatriate European scientists and only the far simpler Uranium bomb used on Hiroshima was developed by American scientists ad engineers. The scale of German brilliance with nuclear technology is vastly underestimated these days.

Returning to point #1 Hitler was forced to abandon nuclear weapons by threats in 1944 to use Anthrax against Germany in retaliation before he was ready to field German nuclear weapons. There was also according to Harteck and Heisenberg (disclosed at Farm Hall) that in July 1944 USA threatened through Lisbon to attack Dresden with the Allied A-bomb. Dresden was then the home of German Plasma Physics which is a key reason it was the first target nominated for allied attack with the A-bomb.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Indeed it is not generally known but the Plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki was created by a team of expatriate European scientists and only the far simpler Uranium bomb used on Hiroshima was developed by American scientists ad engineers.

The reason it is not generally known is it is just not true.... just a claim by you to belittle the USA.

Hitler was forced to abandon nuclear weapons by threats in 1944 to use Anthrax against Germany in retaliation before he was ready to field German nuclear weapons.

he was forced to abandon them as they were not able to build them

Dresden was then the home of German Plasma Physics which is a key reason it was the first target nominated for allied attack with the A-bomb.

No, the reason Dresden was bombed was it was a major German city.

Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and, according to the RAF at the time, the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.[25] Taylor writes that an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel.[26] The contribution to the Nazi war effort may not have been as significant as the planners thought.[27]

reply to post by hellobruce


I apologise if I seem anti American which is not the case, but I do object to the suggestion that the Germans were technologically inferior because it distorts the truth.
The British and Commonwealth forces could not have beaten Germany without American help and that is a given, but you harbour many false assumptions about American technological superiority.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Indeed it is not generally known but the Plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki was created by a team of expatriate European scientists and only the far simpler Uranium bomb used on Hiroshima was developed by American scientists ad engineers.

The reason it is not generally known is it is just not true.... just a claim by you to belittle the USA.

The Nagasaki bomb was in fact built largely with expertise and know-how by émigré European scientists most of whom were German trained. Not only that but that quantum physics and most of the early research work into nuclear physics came from Germany.

You should also be aware that the Plasma Pinch method described by Schumann and Trinks in their wartime patents and developed by Germany during the war was actually proposed to the Manhattan Committee in 1942 by Enrico Fermi, but was dismissed by Chairman Arthur Compton as too technologically challenging for the Allied project to undertake.

I suppose now we have to tippy-toe around the truth so as not to offend your delicate ego?
Perhaps you were unaware of these scientists in the Manhattan Project?

Bohr, Aage Niels Asst. to his father; Niels Bohr Los Alamos, NM
Bohr, Niels Consultant to the Project Los Alamos, NM
Fermi, Enrico Group Leader - Theoretical Los Alamos, NM
Frisch, Otto British Mission Los Alamos, NM
Kistiakowsky, George Director - Implosion Program Los Alamos, NM
Neddermeyer, Seth Implosion Research Los Alamos, NM
Neumann, John von Theoretical Division Los Alamos, NM
Oppenheimer, J. Robert Scientific Director - Project "Y" Los Alamos, NM
Rabi, Isidore I. Consultant to the Project Los Alamos, NM
Segre, Emilio Group Leader - Radioactivity Los Alamos, NM
Serber, Robert Group Leader - Theoretical Los Alamos, NM
Szilard, Leo Group Leader - Met Lab Univ. of Chicago (Met Lab)
Ulam, Stanislau Hydrodynamics of Implosion Los Alamos, NM
Teller, Edward Brilliant Theoretical Physicist Hungary
Schreiber, Raemer S. Group Leader - Scientific Team Tinian Island

reply to post by hellobruce


Just because you say it’s not so doesn’t mean it’s not so... It just means you ignore the evidence.
For example

#1 Woods memorandum pp.18-19, Hull papers 1943 of OSS Station Chief Sam Woods in NA, RG 59

#2 Letter from WW2 Nazi scientist Professor Paul Harteck to Josef Borkin, 1974, concerning Allied threats in 1944 to force abandonment of nuclear weapons project.

#3 Previously classified document by the Headquarters Mediterranean Allied Air Forces Target Intelligence Section, reference made to a bomb with a destructive effect of several kilometres and a radioactive warhead for the V-2

#4 Secretly tape recorded conversations of Maj General Dornberger 2-7 August 1945, given in evidence against Dornberger at Nuremberg, CSDIC UK, PRO file WO.208/4178

#5 Testimony of Ohrdruf Atomic bomb tests in March 1945 given to a 1961 Court of Inquiry at Arnstadt in the East German DDR recounted in the book by Rainer Karlsch - Hitlers Bombe (pub March 2005) including affidavit of Heinz Wachsmut

#6 Declassified USN Intelligence file “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb” dated 19 August 1945, NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c issued by COMNAVEU London on 25 January 1946 affidavit of Captain RF Hickey USN recounting testimony given to him during investigations by Penemunde observer pilot Hans Zinsser concerning atomic bomb tests at Rugen October 1945. The report was given a rating of “B-1” USN Intelligence on a scale defines B-1 to mean: B= “usually reliable and 1= “Report confirmed by other sources”

#7 Press reports from Stockholm about communication blackouts accompanied by electromagnetic interference in October 1944

#8 Declassified MAGIC decrypts "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978 referring to German Uranium atom splitting weapon.

#9 Extract from BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) Final Report 142(g) "Information Obtained from Targets of Opportunity in the Sonthofen Area, (HMSO London) detailing evidence of a 4.5km radius of forest flattened above Starnbergersee SW of Munich with destruction out to 12.5 kilometres, BIOS target numbers C28/8.211, C25/549, C6/137, C30/338, C4/268, C22/2182, C21/601, pp.4-5.

#10 OSS Report of 2 November 1944, in G-343B. (The original interrogation report is in NA, RG 77, MED Foreign Intelligence Unit, entry 22, box 169, folder 32.7002-1.)

#11 ONI Report “German Technical Aid to Japan; a Survey, dated June 15, 1945, Chapter 14, page 177 re transfer of German atomic bomb technology to Japan in 1944.

#12 First-hand account of Clare Werner 2005 regards two Atomic bomb tests at Ohrdruf March 1945 cited in Karlsche’s book and available on Youtube.

#13 First-hand account of Luigi Romersa 2005 of witnessing Atomic test blast on Baltic coast in October 1944.

#14 Abandonment of nuclear research under threat of retaliation by USA via Lisbon to bomb Dresden Operation “Epsilon” (conversation between KARL WIRTZ, VON WEIZSÄCKER and HEISENBERG 6-7 August 1945) National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD, RG 77, Entry 22, Box 164 (Farm Hall Transcripts).

#15 OSS report from Switzerland A-44 316, report 5985 of 7 November 1944 disclosing German possession of nuclear weapons.

#16 Professor Friedrich Lachner, assistant for twenty years to professor Mache at the Department for Technical Physics at the University of Vienna, wrote a letter from exile in Argentina a few years ago to German researchers, Mayer and Mehner, claiming Germany produced 15 nukes. Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner, “Hitler und die, Bombe" (Rottenburg: Kopp Verlag, 2002)

#17 Evidence of Anthrax attack threat to force Hitler to abandon nuclear weapons, “Germany and the Second World War,” by Bernhard R. Kroener, Rolf-Dieter Müller, Hans Umbreit ; p.798, [ Prof Paul Harteck] also Virus House, Irving. p.283

#18 in 1943 Dr Walter Dällenbach's patron AEG’s chairman Hermann Bücher boasted to OSS informant Erwin Respondek that he had—or would have—a new weapon capable of destroying the Allies. Dallenbach was cited by Respondek as according to Bucher having solicited funding for the super cyclotron at Bisingen on the basis of developing a powerful new weapon using uranium, capable of destroying the Allies. Source: Harrison to State dept no.2958, 14 May 1943, NA RG 84, decimal files 863-864, Bern Confidential file, box 14.

reply to post by hellobruce


more examples

#19 Disclosure by Manhattan Project scientist Philip Morrison to time magazine in November 1944 that Germany already had the bomb.

#20 It’s also worth noting that from 1953 the American Nazi Party founder, George Lincoln Rockwell is claimed to have made overtures to sell President Gamal Abdel Nasser of the United Arab Republic, Nazi nuclear weapons technology developed in Germany during the War (FBI Internal Memorandum, File Number 97-3835-33, July 13,1959) allegedly obtained from Nazi scientists who were brought to USA in Operation Paperclip (Diebner). The Neo Nazis wanted Nasser to underwrite development of nuclear weapons for a Nazi revival based on wartime Nazi technology. One must recall that for decades after the war Atom Bomb technology remained highly secret, and one could not simply obtain the required information from books unlike today when it is all on the internet. Source: “Dreamer of the Day” Coogan, pp. 380-381

#21 KGB files from an NKVD spy reporting the Ohrdruf nuclear test blasts in March 1945 to Stalin declassified in 2005 cited by Rainer Karlsch, Hitler’s Bombe 2005.

#22 PTB tested soil samples at Ohrdruf disclosed the presence of Caesium 137 but no proof of Xenon 135 isotopes released by Chernobyl, proving that radiation found in soil at Ohrdruf is not the result of fall-out from post war nuclear reactors or Soviet bomb tests.

Ohrdruf soil analysis data:

One of the A-bomb test sites in March 1945 was at Ohrdruf near the city of Erfurt. There, soil samples disclosed elevated levels of Cobolt 60 and Caesium 137 confirmed by the research agency PTB. Critics dismiss this saying that likely it just resulted from fall out residue from Chernobyl however that assumption is entirely incorrect.

Chernobyl produced extremely high levels of Xenon-135 just prior to exploding and polluting the atmosphere (1987 if I recall correctly). At Ohrdruf there was no trace of Xenon-135, nor it’s decay products stable Xenon-136, nor was there any trace of Caesium -135. Xenon would be particularly expected to remain if the traces were from Chernobyl. The absence of these isotopes in the soil at Ohrdruf is proof that radioactive products found in the soil there came from a Uranium type nuclear weapon rather than a nuclear reactor.
Failure to find uranium on the site proves nothing. At Hiroshima, Uranium was undetectable above natural background levels by 1983 due to the environmental effects and normal decay process.

Also it is worth mentioning a Plutonium derived Atomic bomb will always feature residues of Xenon -135, therefore the absence of these Xenon by-products also rules out residue from Soviet or US nuclear test blasts. Only a uranium bomb will fail to leave appreciable Xenon by-products.

It is worth mentioning the soil analysis by PTB either was not competent, or else deliberately gave misleading conclusions to conceal this aspect. There is no way a spectrographic analysis would not pick up by-products of Xenon poisoning in the soil.

Now refute that convincingly and maybe then I will listen to your denials

I dont have the physics background to comment on the OP's post, but you have to admire his knowledge of this topic. Whether he's right or wrong, for me ATS is about informed debate like this, so S&F to you Mr Gunson.

Its a very interesting theory and anyone interested should deffo read the Reich of the Black Sun.

I did a bit of reasearch on this a few years ago and here are a few notes I'd add:

"Nazi scientists" were actually scientists collected from the countries the Nazi's occupied.
Some were Nazi sympathisers..others just played along so their families were not killed/tortured.

Nazi advances were made by pooling the resources of the occupied countires in question.

There is very compelling folklore that some of the Atomic weapon components dropped on Japan were "goodies" apprpriated by the Allies in the "dash" at the end of the Third Reich...some perculiar routes were taken by the Soviets and Allies ..instead of going for the 3rd Reich leadership they seem to have other places of interest at the top of the list.

The German Millitray Industrial Complex; especially IG Farben were apparently behind the Jewish holocaust...in this alternative version of events the Jews are the guinnea pigs for the crazy scientists at IG farben run research facilities...( i.e concentration camps) ...not saying I believe this but look at the picutres of concentration camp survivors...one could say extreme famine and delousing but one could also argue the survivors look like they have radiation sickness from being used as a workforce and test subjects in a possible weapon programme.

Possibly the most interesting aspect is that of the occult based alchemic foretelling that seemed to consume Nazi fantasies which suggested the rulers of the world would achieve this position by doing three things:

*The Creation and Destruction of Primordial Matter (AKA Nuclear fission)

*The Killing of the Divine King ( Many Interpretations..)

*The Bringing of Prima Materia to Prima Terra" (Bringing extra terrestrial matter to earth ; Ie going to the moon)


The above 3 points are covered here ctrl.org... and it does make fascinating reading.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Schumann / Trinks filed 47 patents in Germany during WW2 referring to aspects of this hollow charge nuclear weapon.

So why dont you list those 47 patents?

Isn't there so much mass of plutonium (or whatever you choose to use) that is required before a nuclear explosion can take place?

I'm no nuclear physicist, but surely this "critical mass" idea would negate the very possibility of mini nukes?

The Japanese were said to have test detonated a nuclear bomb just after Nagasaki in August 1945, in an area of North Korea that is still closed to Westerners to this day, it was supposed to have been a successful test.

Apparently, even though Japan had already surrendered, the scientists wanted to show that they could make it work.

I haven't read the whole thread. Does anyone know if Otto Hahn was involved in this. Hahn was credited with much of the research into nuclear fission, and was in Germany during the war. Thanks.

Originally posted by Jukiodone
Its a very interesting theory and anyone interested should deffo read the Reich of the Black Sun.

I did a bit of reasearch on this a few years ago and here are a few notes I'd add:

"Nazi scientists" were actually scientists collected from the countries the Nazi's occupied.
Some were Nazi sympathisers..others just played along so their families were not killed/tortured.

Nazi advances were made by pooling the resources of the occupied countires in question.

There is very compelling folklore that some of the Atomic weapon components dropped on Japan were "goodies" apprpriated by the Allies in the "dash" at the end of the Third Reich...some perculiar routes were taken by the Soviets and Allies ..instead of going for the 3rd Reich leadership they seem to have other places of interest at the top of the list.

The German Millitray Industrial Complex; especially IG Farben were apparently behind the Jewish holocaust...in this alternative version of events the Jews are the guinnea pigs for the crazy scientists at IG farben run research facilities...( i.e concentration camps) ...not saying I believe this but look at the picutres of concentration camp survivors...one could say extreme famine and delousing but one could also argue the survivors look like they have radiation sickness from being used as a workforce and test subjects in a possible weapon programme.

Possibly the most interesting aspect is that of the occult based alchemic foretelling that seemed to consume Nazi fantasies which suggested the rulers of the world would achieve this position by doing three things:

*The Creation and Destruction of Primordial Matter (AKA Nuclear fission)

*The Killing of the Divine King ( Many Interpretations..)

*The Bringing of Prima Materia to Prima Terra" (Bringing extra terrestrial matter to earth ; Ie going to the moon)


The above 3 points are covered here ctrl.org... and it does make fascinating reading.

edit on 4-2-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

Reich of the Black Sun is a work of fiction, nothing more. The author provides nothing to back up his assertions of Nazi super weapons.

reply to post by sy.gunson


That the Nazis and the Japanese sought the bomb is pretty commonly accepted these days. Riken is the Japanese think tank that was in charge of their program.

Somewhat more controversial, yet supported by some reports, is the idea that both successfully tested their own atomic weapons before the end of the war.

That could have been a 'fuel-air' bomb, I have read speculations about that event in the past, (well into the past) so this post is from memory.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Somewhat more controversial, yet supported by some reports, is the idea that both successfully tested their own atomic weapons before the end of the war.

I keep reading people saying things like that but when pressed for corroboration they usually don't have any.

Do we have a source for this claim?

Originally posted by Manhandler12

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Somewhat more controversial, yet supported by some reports, is the idea that both successfully tested their own atomic weapons before the end of the war.

I keep reading people saying things like that but when pressed for corroboration they usually don't have any.

Do we have a source for this claim?

Yes, there have been books written about both programs. Please read about the subject a bit in Joseph Farrell's work, he references reports and such.

Bonus points for you if you dig up more corroboration for us. I hope this was your intention, to add to the discussion and look into the facts yourself. If you merely meant to imply that I was full of it because of a lack of citation then you are free to think what you wish, but this is not useful for the discussion.