Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

An interesting wartime diplomatic signal is referred to in a book by Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner, "Hitler und die Bombe" (Rottenburg: Kopp Verlag, 2002), pp. 110-114

It cites a declassified MAGIC decrypt from December 1944 referring to German use of nuclear weapons about August 1943. "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978. The decrypt reads:

This bomb is revolutionary in its results, and will completely upset all ordinary precepts of warfare hitherto established. I am sending you, in one group, all those reports on what is called the atom-splitting bomb.

It is a fact that in June of 1943, the German Army tried out an utterly new type of weapon against the Russians at a location 150 kilometers southeast of Kursk. Although it was the entire 19th Infantry Regiment of the Russians which was thus attacked, only a few bombs (each round up to 5 kilograms) sufficed to utterly wipe them out to the last man.

The following is according to a statement by Lieutenant Colonel...

Kenji, adviser to the attaché in Hungary and formerly... in this country, who by chance saw the actual scene immediately after the above took place: “All the men and the horses [within radius of] the explosion of the shells were charred black and even their ammunition had all been detonated. Moreover, it is a fact that the same type of war material was tried out in the Crimea too. At that time the Russians claimed that this was poison gas, and protested that if Germany were ever again to use it, Russia, too, would use poison gas.

... Recently the British authorities warned their people of the possibility that they might undergo attack by German atom- splitting bombs. The American authorities have likewise warned that the American east coast might be the area chosen for a blind attack by some sort of flying bomb...

This appears to corroborate claims by Rainer Karlsch made in 2005 that Germany did in fact test nuclear weapons at Rugen in October 1944 and again twice in March 1945 at Ohrdruf.

ETA:

Is there any online resources for this information?

reply to post by sy.gunson


I have read about this as well, it is certainly interesting.

Another book on this topic, Reich of The Black Sun can be found here

reply to post by SLAYER69


This is a link I would recommend:

Electricity Slaves & Buna

Other links repeating my opening reference:

Black Sun

I have no connection with Grey Falcon although they plagerised my website on the Ju-390 in my name, however they dig up stuff about everything:

Grey Falcon

I differ in my opinions with some of the conclusions which Farrell draws in particular, however the above people all cite interesting source material.

Karlsch's 2005 book was only written in German and you can find a Google book online to read.

Karlsch debate

Review by Schwanitz

In effect what Karlsch was saying was that during WW2 the Germans developed a type of explosive warhead called a hollow charge used initially against tanks. Later it was adapted to create a tactical nuclear weapon.

In a hollow charge the face of the warhead used to attack a target like a tank was a kind of conical cup made from Copper with the apex of the cone pointing away from the target. Behind the cone was conventional chemical explosives. When the explosive charge was ignited it formed a molten Copper slug from the conical liner which raced forward at high speed to cut a hole in the tank's armour using high temperatures and pressures.

In the nuclear warhead proposed by explosives experts Dr Eric Schumann & Dr Haulk (Walter) Trinks, two conical hollow charges were joined facing towards each other. Fissile material was placed between them in the cavity formed by both opposing cones. The cavity was evacuated to near vacumn conditions.



At the centre was placed Lithium Deuteride (a hydride of Lithium using heavy Hydrogen) and various other compounds. Boron acted as a nuclear moderator. Key ingredient being fissile material like Uranium 233.

The fissile material could also be substituted with Uranium 235 or Plutonium 239 if available. After WW2 the United States developed the same principle only using Plutonium in stead of Uranium 233. The quantity required was very low. 250 grams of U233 was enough for a 1 kiloton blast.

It worked on a principle of artificially inducing what we nowadays call a Deuteron beam. If you collide Deuterium with superheated Lithium under high pressures then you can generate a rush of neutrons. Sufficient to trick the fissile material to react as if it was part of a larger critical mass of Uranium or Plutonium.

This is a digram I have done of the same concept:



How the design was copied by the US in 1956:

This is very interesting and doesn't seem entirely outside the realms of possibility.

The infamous russian RPG still uses the conical copper cup for its warhead.

Crafty germans, where did they come up with all of this stuff in the first place? I have a squirrely suspicion and it doesn't involve aliens.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
This is a digram I have done of the same concept:

How the design was copied by the US in 1956:

These are 2 completely different designs. The Swan Device uses a 2 point implosion design, whereby instead of using multiple explosive lenses and detonators they use just 2 explosive lenses and 2 detonators, greatly reducing the size of the primary. It still relies imploding fissile material and the any tritium or lithium would be used to boost the yield of the weapon. Without fission the temperatures and pressures just aren't there to start the fusion process with the tritium/lithium.

The other design, couldn't possibly work on any level, unless the laws of physics have changed. So the supposed German design would only result in scattering the fissile material over a small area. No way it could have worked.

reply to post by mad scientist


The laws of physics apply just the same. They work on the basis of creating a brief deuteron beam. All miniature nukes work this way. How precisely one creates the deuteron beam or burst of X-ray energy is irrelevant, so long as one does create it.

Likely a hoax written after the fact. The German nuclear effort was dependent on heavy water [Norsk Hydro] and their technology had just gotten to a reactor of uranium cubes in an array in D2O. If they would have had anything like what was claimed, the Russians would have never taken Berlin and the Allies would have had a rough time invading Europe.
The lined cavity effect was well known to all combatants. The explosives used at Kursk may have been FAE's. The Germans did develop an experimental anti-aircraft round that used ethylene oxide. On bursting, the vapor formed a cloud and exploded when an aircraft engine ignited it. Several planes were shot down using such a weapon.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by mad scientist

 

The laws of physics apply just the same. They work on the basis of creating a brief deuteron beam. All miniature nukes work this way. How precisely one creates the deuteron beam or burst of X-ray energy is irrelevant, so long as one does create it.

Actually they don't. Miniature nukes are very inefficient and only use a fraction of their fuel and they use the same methods as every other nuke, implosion or gun type weapons for artillery shells and suitcase nukes. The reason they are inefficient is because more fuel is needed to form a critical mass (self sustaining chain reaction) as less explosives are able to be used because of size constraints. Modern weapons use neutron guns to increase the efficiency of an implosion, by shooting a burst of neutrons into the core.
Deuteron beams have nothing to do with nuclear weapon design. Nuclear weapons rely on critical mass to achieve fission.
As I said that diagram of the German design is completely useless and wouldn't even come close to working.

Originally posted by pteridine
Likely a hoax written after the fact. The German nuclear effort was dependent on heavy water [Norsk Hydro] and their technology had just gotten to a reactor of uranium cubes in an array in D2O. If they would have had anything like what was claimed, the Russians would have never taken Berlin and the Allies would have had a rough time invading Europe.
The lined cavity effect was well known to all combatants. The explosives used at Kursk may have been FAE's. The Germans did develop an experimental anti-aircraft round that used ethylene oxide. On bursting, the vapor formed a cloud and exploded when an aircraft engine ignited it. Several planes were shot down using such a weapon.

many of these supposed reports, have in fact been fabricated. rather like Nostradamus's quatrains have been after the fact.

reply to post by pteridine

Likely a hoax written after the fact.

Just because you can't accept the facts, doesn't entitle you to piss all over it and dismiss it as made up. If you believe the evidence is false then prove it. Schumann / Trinks filed 47 patents in Germany during WW2 referring to aspects of this hollow charge nuclear weapon. Their experiments are also documented by others contemporary with the events.

The German nuclear effort was dependent on heavy water

Another instant expert who has never taken the time to research the facts before offering an opinion.

You don't even understand how a tactical mini nuke works. I suggest you study the physics before offering opinions.

For what it is worth and that's not very much as Heavy water was irrelevant to developing the Schumann / Trinks hollow charge Nuke, these are the heavy water plants controlled by Nazi Germany during WW2. If you doubt me then I refer you to the Harteck report dated 22 November 1943 held in US National Archives:

# 1) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)

# 2) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel, wooded area (Dr K Geib’s hydrogen sulphide exchange process)

# 3) Hamburg Plant (possibly near Zeven, Harteck low pressure distilation process)

# 4) Munich Plant (Clusius-Linde, Nernst Distribution Process)

Outside Germany:

# 5) Vemork (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 6) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 7) Montecantini plant at Merano, Italy (near Bolzano)

The lined cavity effect was well known to all combatants.

The lined cavity (Munroe) effect though known since 1792 was not given any practical application in warfare until developed by the Nazis.

The lined cavity effect was not applied to nuclear physics in USA until the mid fifties. Certainly not during WW2.

The explosives used at Kursk may have been FAE's.

Again an instant expert... except that the Japanese diplomats who were intimately briefed on German hi tech weapons during WW2 and who kept up a constant dialogue with Tokyo about German advances which the Allies decyphered clearly stated these were 5 kilogram warheads, which used the power of splitting Uranium Atoms to create explosives of devastating effect. This report was classified in United States archives until 1978.

The same Japanese message from Stockholm answers your question why it didn't prevent Soviet advances. It refers to Soviet threats to unleash poison gas. I have previously cited sources in particular Hitler's admission to Marshal Antonescu on 5 August 1944 that Germany would not use nuclear weapons until it had developed a defence against similar enemy weapons.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The lined cavity (Munroe) effect though known since 1792 was not given any practical application in warfare until developed by the Nazis.

Wrong again, it was used by the British before the Germans in WW2 in the No. 68 AT Grenade

So many people post false information on German development during WW2 they are getting as bad as birthers and truthers!

reply to post by mad scientist


So the magic decrypt "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9" December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978 is a fake then.

Good then I am sure you can back up that claim with proof. I am waiting.

And whilst you struggle to prove your ridiculous claim you have no grasp how tactical nukes create X-rays do you?
If so I welcome your explanation.

If you know so much please explain how the American Swann device works?
I doubt you can.

reply to post by dereks


The hollow charge was used by German forces in reduction of fort Eben Emal in 1939 and was developed well prior to WW2

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The hollow charge was used by German forces in reduction of fort Eben Emal in 1939

Oh dear, you are wrong again, Fort Eben-Emael was not attacked until 10th May 1940....

reply to post by sy.gunson

Heavy water was referring to the moderator for a nuclear reactor and not a weapon design. The US reactor, by Enrico Fermi, used graphite as a moderator. The limitations of German academia prevented the Nazi's from using the same, as the cross section of graphite is dependent on it's purity. A measurement by a highly respected academician, using dirty graphite, was never challenged or repeated and hence the need for D2O.
The comment about Hitler holding back because of the threat of chemical warfare seems contrived. With such weapons, he could have threatened to double the effort at any suggestion of chemical warfare. The Germans had the advantage, chemically, anyway. At the end, why would he hold back anything? Children were defending Berlin in the face of a vengeful Sovient army. Nazi scientists were checking craters of blockbuster bombs with Geiger counters looking for radiation. The suggestion was made that Nazi Germany used experimental nukes on the battlefield earlier in the war and then, in fear of chemical attacks, did not use them even when the end was in sight. With such weapons, they could have sued for peace and a conditional surrender......or just defeated the allies.
Patents are patents. Some actually work in practice and some don't. Some things are patented that were never built. Did any witnesses to the explosions actually see or weigh the 5kg warheads? Remember that propaganda was a Nazi strongpoint.
The Panzerschreck was developed after captures of US Bazookas during the African campaign and during the invasion of Russia. It was bigger and more effective than the Bazooka. A good idea is a good idea and the Germans were not the source of all such advanced technologies. Soviet RPG's combined the Bazooka and PanzerFaust/Schreck technologies as the Soviets had quantities of both after WW2.

there are a few TV special out there about the latter part of WWII and one has to wonder if the war had went on another year if there would have been a different outcome? The Germans were on the cutting edge of several things and it seems that time and money just ran out.