Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by thumper76
there are a few TV special out there about the latter part of WWII and one has to wonder if the war had went on another year if there would have been a different outcome? The Germans were on the cutting edge of several things and it seems that time and money just ran out.

This is true. Additionally, the Nazis had a number of very effective escape plans. The FBI recently released its compiled reports of Hitler sightings in South America, and the #er's well over 1000 pages thick.

One informant even claims to have dined with the Fuhrer himself.

So, while it is accurate to say that the German nation lost the war, can we be certain that the Nazis did? After all, their main corporations (IG Farben, Siemens, Bayer, etc) seem to still be riding high, and a lot of their thinkers went straight into US Government funded work.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Up until 1978 there was no proof that Bletchley Park was involved in a massive project to intercept and decypher Enigma signals. From the authorities all information was suppressed yet to a few individuals there were tell tale obvious indications that codes and cyphers must have been cracked.

Many so called experts pooh-poohed and vigorously attacked the few brave researchers before 1978 who insisted from strands of open source evidence that this was the case. Those critics fell silent when the British were finally forced to admit this was the case.

The same is the case now that there is a mounting surge of evidence from disparate unrelated and independent sources whilst the British and Allied Governments sit behibnd a wall of silence.

Of course there was a nazi nuclear bomb, and the real 64 thousand dollar question is why Nazi Germany never deployed it against the UK?

The answer is simple enough....but profound.

Threats to use Anthrax and Allied nuclear weapons conveyed to Hitler in mid 1944 forced Hitler into secret negotiations which excluded the russians and sparked the Cold War.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Up until 1978 there was no proof that Bletchley Park was involved in a massive project to intercept and decypher Enigma signals. From the authorities all information was suppressed yet to a few individuals there were tell tale obvious indications that codes and cyphers must have been cracked.

Many so called experts pooh-poohed and vigorously attacked the few brave researchers before 1978 who insisted from strands of open source evidence that this was the case. Those critics fell silent when the British were finally forced to admit this was the case.

The same is the case now that there is a mounting surge of evidence from disparate unrelated and independent sources whilst the British and Allied Governments sit behibnd a wall of silence.

Of course there was a nazi nuclear bomb, and the real 64 thousand dollar question is why Nazi Germany never deployed it against the UK?

The answer is simple enough....but profound.

Threats to use Anthrax and Allied nuclear weapons conveyed to Hitler in mid 1944 forced Hitler into secret negotiations which excluded the russians and sparked the Cold War.

edit on 25-2-2013 by sy.gunson because: spelling corrections

Of course you are right on. However, the people who I have been arguing with on this thread are falling back to the ridiculous demand that I give proof while they won't. When I do give references, they don't disagree with the references, but call into question the character of the people who report them.

It's easy to tell who's full of BS when tactics like that are brought to bear.

reply to post by babybunnies


There is a concept called natural critical mass which US first generation nuclear weapons adopted for the methodology. USA abandoned weapons requiring critical mass in 1948. You need to research the Christie Core and levitated Plutonium pits to follow this further.

H-bombs were second generation nuclear weapons

Miniaturised boosted fission nukes were third generation nuclear weapons. Without third generation nukes ballistic nuclear weapons would be impossible.

If you read some of the public lectures by Edward Teller USA was greatly indebted to Nazi wartime research on Third Generation nuclear weapons for it's development of the H-bomb.

The fact is the Nazis adopted an entirely novel and different approach to the Allies and one which required far less fissile material therefore did not require a cumbersome Manhattan project.

It may be of interest that as of february 2013 North Korea which shares technology with iran and Jihadist groups test blasted a 7 kiloton Third Generation nuclear weapon using just 0.4 kilograms of uranium.

Los Alamos Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore laboratories are working with CERN on fourth (fifth?) generation nuclear weapon using anti-matter trapped in a cryogenic electromagnetic bottle. One in which a tiny speck of antimatter has the same explosive power as a a large H-bomb.



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reply to post by pikestaff

That could have been a 'fuel-air' bomb, I have read speculations about that event in the past, (well into the past) so this post is from memory.

The fuel air bomb created by Zippermayer was tested at Doberitz test grounds notrth of berlin with a blast radius of 900 metres. Zippermayer however noted in his post war interrogations that it was adapted by the SS led by Dr Alfred Klemm with the addition of radioactive isotopes understood to include uranium oxide and possibly tritium, which when tested created a new hybrid nuclear weapon with a blast radius of 4.5 kilometres when blasted over a hill above Starnberger see.

This however was not the same weapon as the Schumann/Trinks hollow charge boosted fission weapon tested at Rugen.

The nazis were absolutely clear which weapons were fuel air explosives and which were nuclear weapons

reply to post by hellobruce

Very true, like some people claiming Germany and Japan had the capability to develop a nuclear bomb..... very silly indeed!

What is silly HelloBruce are people like yourself who never take the time to read or research the facts before forming conclusions and publicly dengrating those facts.

The Nazi inventeted Quantum Physics which the world now uses to understand how nuclear weapons work. Nazi nuclear physicists were fare more adept, knowledgable and sophistocated on the subject than their counterparts in the manhattan project and for a source confirming this perhaps you should read the Monsanto report to the chairman of the manhattan project at the end of WW2 which notes this.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by pikestaff

 

That could have been a 'fuel-air' bomb, I have read speculations about that event in the past, (well into the past) so this post is from memory.

The fuel air bomb created by Zippermayer was tested at Doberitz test grounds notrth of berlin with a blast radius of 900 metres. Zippermayer however noted in his post war interrogations that it was adapted by the SS led by Dr Alfred Klemm with the addition of radioactive isotopes understood to include uranium oxide and possibly tritium, which when tested created a new hybrid nuclear weapon with a blast radius of 4.5 kilometres when blasted over a hill above Starnberger see.

This however was not the same weapon as the Schumann/Trinks hollow charge boosted fission weapon tested at Rugen.

The nazis were absolutely clear which weapons were fuel air explosives and which were nuclear weapons

This is the kind of post that we need to see more of. I have evaluated the satellite imagery of Starnberger and Rugen but the terrain makes it difficult to determine if any of the numerous holes there are just natural swamps or water-filled craters. A bit of detective work with a geiger counter would probably be necessary to tell for sure.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

It does not follow that a new weapons technology would become known. In fact, if anything it would be a heavily guarded secret.

Mmm, sure, that's why we have nuclear Pakistan, India, Iran and North Korea, and who knows who else.

If a new technology with a military application is developed, secrecy is paramount because this technology becomes another ace in the hole.

What is also paramount is the physics involved. There is a limited number of isotopes that are suitable for manufacture in decent quantities, and subsequent detonation via the chain reaction. The keyword is limited. The physics of these substances further limit the number of available design solutions.

And yes, Germany and Japan had difficulties in securing certain materials, but this doesn't mean that they were unable to make progress.

Yes it does. The "difficulty" of that scale equals impossibility. You seem to be ignoring the monumental effort that was put into the nuclear program in the US and Russia, far away from the front lines and aerial bombardment. There is no evidence that anything like that took place in the countries we bombed the hell out of.

I find it curious to meet such a closed-minded person on a conspiracy forum.

Since when critical thinking is called being closed-minded?

You keep repeating that the alleged program was "souper sikrit". How come you are able to claim ANYTHING at all about it?

Of course, the Japanese might have been using the aid of an advanced civilization from Zeta Reticuli. What's the point of speculating about that?

reply to post by buddhasystem


You have already decided that you know all there is to know, which is unfortunate. This forum and this thread are useful for those of us who imagine there is more than what we think we know.

As I said before, and as sy.gunson elaborated upon, there are alternate routes toward any goal, even nuclear weapons. He, I am sure, can inform you of more details. My main focus is radio technology, which the Nazis were masters at. However, while I do consider myself an expert in that field, I am always open to new information.

As sy.gunson said, the North Koreans recently had a successful nuclear test using a mere 1/2 kilo of fissionable material, something that would have been unthinkable to the Manhattan Project folks. They developed their technology in isolation, following a path that was dictated by their available resources, much like the Nazis did with their own nuclear program.

Let's put it this way - you won't convince me that there isn't something to this story, so a question arises - wherefore your persistence in doing so?

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The Nazi inventeted Quantum Physics which the world now uses to understand how nuclear weapons work.

This statement is laughable on many levels. It's not "Nazi" who invented quantum mechanics. What you present here is pure, unadulterated falsehood. There were a few Germans who made monumental contributions to that science (and a lot of those were actually opposed to Nazi policies), but other nations also had talented individuals whose role is just as important. Oh, and a newsbreak: John von Neumann was not a member of the Nazi Party. And he was a genius of biblical proportions whose contributions simply cannot be exaggerated.

Nazi nuclear physicists were fare more adept, knowledgable and sophistocated on the subject than their counterparts in the manhattan project

Jesus H Christ, where does this silliness stop...

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Los Alamos Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore laboratories are working with CERN on fourth (fifth?) generation nuclear weapon using anti-matter trapped in a cryogenic electromagnetic bottle.

CERN is a civilian facility, and it's beyond ridiculous to even remotely suggest that there are any weapons being developed there. In Switzerland? Puh-leeeze. I've been visiting there for research for 23 years now and know the place really well. Scratch "ridiculous", it's plain stupid. There are bus loads of tourists coming almost every day to the site.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The Nazi inventeted Quantum Physics which the world now uses to understand how nuclear weapons work.

This statement is laughable on many levels. It's not "Nazi" who invented quantum mechanics. What you present here is pure, unadulterated falsehood. There were a few Germans who made monumental contributions to that science (and a lot of those were actually opposed to Nazi policies), but other nations also had talented individuals whose role is just as important. Oh, and a newsbreak: John von Neumann was not a member of the Nazi Party. And he was a genius of biblical proportions whose contributions simply cannot be exaggerated.

Nazi nuclear physicists were fare more adept, knowledgable and sophistocated on the subject than their counterparts in the manhattan project

Jesus H Christ, where does this silliness stop...

You can attempt to laugh off sy.gunson's posts but he is quite well informed, and has brought actual information to light for you. Perhaps you should attempt to disprove his claims rather than just laughing? This might be a more respectable manner in which to act.

The Nazis took their own path in the development of many technologies, and saying you are sure they didn't develop a nuke because they didn't follow the same path as the USA is only possible if you ignore their very real progress in other areas, progress attained by methods that were unknown in the USA and Britain.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Los Alamos Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore laboratories are working with CERN on fourth (fifth?) generation nuclear weapon using anti-matter trapped in a cryogenic electromagnetic bottle.

CERN is a civilian facility, and it's beyond ridiculous to even remotely suggest that there are any weapons being developed there. In Switzerland? Puh-leeeze. I've been visiting there for research for 23 years now and know the place really well. Scratch "ridiculous", it's plain stupid. There are bus loads of tourists coming almost every day to the site.

edit on 25-2-2013 by buddhasystem because: (no reason given)

CERN is a civilian facility in name, but it is difficult to believe that we have access to all the projects going on there, and the data as well.

One thing's for sure - CERN's LHC is certainly among my top picks for dual-use technology. It is quite possible that certain experiments which have the veneer of civilian science could be used to generate data useful for military programs. After all, dual-use technologies always front as civilian projects.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Los Alamos Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore laboratories are working with CERN on fourth (fifth?) generation nuclear weapon using anti-matter trapped in a cryogenic electromagnetic bottle.

CERN is a civilian facility, and it's beyond ridiculous to even remotely suggest that there are any weapons being developed there. In Switzerland? Puh-leeeze. I've been visiting there for research for 23 years now and know the place really well. Scratch "ridiculous", it's plain stupid. There are bus loads of tourists coming almost every day to the site.

edit on 25-2-2013 by buddhasystem because: (no reason given)

CERN is a civilian facility in name, but it is difficult to believe that we have access to all the projects going on there, and the data as well.

Well if you find it difficult, then tough. I'll be there in a couple of weeks, by the way. The most lethal object at CERN is the cheese in the cafeteria, it's yummi and has a lot of cholesterol in it.

One thing's for sure - CERN's LHC is certainly among my top picks for dual-use technology. It is quite possible that certain experiments which have the veneer of civilian science could be used to generate data useful for military programs.

It just so happens that I know all of the current experiments at CERN, and I know one really, really well as I helped build hardware and software components for it. So regarding the "veneer"... Baloney. Maybe you know better sitting in your chair. Nuh, scratch that.

It's about time you turn your conspiracy dial to the left a bit -- there are worthy topics out there for sure, but CERN as a weapons research facility.... that's crossing the line between conspiracy and idiocy.

I think it's definitely possible that the US claimed much of the Nazi' research at the end of the war, just as it is believed that General MacArthur claimed all the medical research that the Japanese has conducted on the Chinese in Unit 731. This was in exchange for impunity from war crimes.

Regarding Germany's development on different lines to others.

Both the UK and Germany had RADAR early on in WW2. However both systems differed in many details, based primarily on what was available at the moment. The German system was in fact better than the UK's and I believe went on to form the RADAR we use now.

Sorry, not going to provide evidence as it is easily found with a quick search.

The information regarding a nuclear bomb was available to many pre 2nd WW, and Germany had supplies of fission materials from Africa. Whether they managed to build one will probably never be known, in the word of wars that wars engender all sorts of threats, promises and developments happen.

Thanks Sy for starting this thread.

Originally posted by dowot
The German system was in fact better than the UK's and I believe went on to form the RADAR we use now.

No it was not actually,allied radar was much better - German radar may have been better engineered, but that made it more difficult to modify and upgrade. Also allied radar operators were much better trained. Also the allies even managed to install radar into a shell - the proximity fuse.

Originally posted by dowot
The information regarding a nuclear bomb was available to many pre 2nd WW, and Germany had supplies of fission materials from Africa.

Fissile materials are of course necessary for being able to build a nuke. However, they are completely useless unless you create a vast infrastructure to convert them into weapon-grade fuel. As you know, there are two primary ways to go about that:

a) Uranium enrichment to separate U-235
b) Making plutonium-239

Either of this requires vast infrastructure and build-up, and it's pretty impossible that any of the facilities needed would have just disappeared after WWII. The former usually requires tremendous bank of centrifuges, the latter a decent nuclear reactor and sophisticated refinement facilities.

Ironically, Germans used a lot of uranium for armor-piercing shells in WWII.

Whether they managed to build one will probably never be known

It may never be known whether your liver is receiving signals from a distant neutron star, on a subspace frequency, and dictates to you what to write on ATS. However, my opinion is that it's pretty freaking impossible.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


Progress that left no footprint at all??? No paper chain at all, no evidence, no eyewitness and no physical proof. This is getting ridiculous. The V-weapons used up a fraction of the resources that a fully-funded and successful Nazi nuclear programme would have used. The former was detected via Enigma decrypts and other intelligence years before the first V-1 or V-2 was launched. No sign at all of the latter. I wonder why?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

Progress that left no footprint at all??? No paper chain at all, no evidence, no eyewitness and no physical proof. This is getting ridiculous. The V-weapons used up a fraction of the resources that a fully-funded and successful Nazi nuclear programme would have used. The former was detected via Enigma decrypts and other intelligence years before the first V-1 or V-2 was launched. No sign at all of the latter. I wonder why?

Just wanted to add:

The V-weapons (also pretty secret stuff by any measure) left a HUGE material footprint with their facilities in Europe. Literally. And as you noted, this effort would be a fraction of what's needed for a nuclear weapons program.