Nazi Atomic weapons in 1943

Originally posted by thumper76
would have been a different outcome? The Germans were on the cutting edge of several things and it seems that time and money just ran out.

The allies were on the cutting edge of a lot more things than the germans...

if memory serves me right last time i looked at a history book the germans were trying to develop a atomic weapon and either the us was tryin to do the same thing or got wind of it and created the manhattan project to build an atomic bomb and i believe albert einstein was involved in building it to

Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by mad scientist

 

And whilst you struggle to prove your ridiculous claim you have no grasp how tactical nukes create X-rays do you?
If so I welcome your explanation.

If you know so much please explain how the American Swann device works?
I doubt you can.

It has become clear that you know absolutely nothing about nuclear weapons design or even how a nuclear weapon works. I have explained how the Swan device works using 2 point implosion and it resembles nothing presented in your ridiculous diagram of a supposed nazi nuke. You don't even understand what a critical mass is and how it pertains to a self sustaining nuclear reaction. Please go and educate yourself, there is tons of information at your fingertips, as well as information about basic physics. READ.

Everything you've claimed has no basis in physics.

reply to post by dereks
the Germans were several years ahead on the development of the jet.

Originally posted by thumper76
reply to post by dereks

 

the Germans were several years ahead on the development of the jet.

Yes, but in the end it didn't matter. The Nazi's were overwhelmed by numbers and their own production limitations. The Me-262 Schwalbe was faster than the P-51's but it needed fuel to fly. Bombing the IG Farben Leuna synthetic fuel works, Ploesti oil fields, and rail lines kept them at bay.
The Tigers were better tanks, but when they were surrounded by 5 or 10 T-34's or Sherman's they would succumb even after destroying several opponents.

Nowadays we have a similar situation with SCALAR WEAPONS, EMP weapons, quantum potential weapons, etc.... much more powerful than those child-size hiroshima nuclear weapons.

No one speaks officially about these, but at least the major world powers have them.

During the fourties, both US and Germany were running to produce bigger weapons, in secret. People only discovered the existence of nuclear weapons when hiroshima happened. It's the same with scalar weapons, if someone uses them, then everyone knows and will want to have them. Since the destruction potencial is too big, no one risks to use them, having no defence systems against such attack. It's also the same situation for advance spacecraft. I think the US, Russia, China already have some kind of these spacecrafts.

1946 harpers article that directly refutes the allies were ahead in many fields assertion

Funny that the same people show up in all of these threads and assert things that are not even CLOSE to anything but REVISIONIST politricks style history... The war reparations extracted from Germany postwar were INSANE even the allied commanders at the time that were on the ground in Germany began protesting !!! Not to mention in the final treaties and agreements in the 50's there is a proviso that EXPLICITLY states that the Germans will NOT seek compensation for the stolen intellectual property which was quite literally carted back to the US and doled out by the volume to commercial interests worldwide!!

The great German patent heist

READ these links then tell me how far ahead the allies were...

As far as the nukes debate ... I have no idea it's always been perplexing to me how that whole situation went down and I am now finding it frightening as I see history readying itself to .... Not repeat itself but RHYME like Dr. Seuss for sure with the United States cast in the role of Germany and the timeline being about to the invasion of poland (except for us I think we might take a Dunkirk before or after we strike at Iran which is our poland)

you should read the books by joseph p farell. he talks about how the nazis not only tested atom bombs but air bombs on the eastern front. go buy...go read!

Originally posted by ewokdisco
you should read the books by joseph p farell. he talks about how the nazis not only tested atom bombs but air bombs on the eastern front. go buy...go read!

Yah read his book Reich of the Black Sun years ago, it makes for good fiction but almost all his assertions are works of fantasy.

Originally posted by thumper76
reply to post by dereks

 

the Germans were several years ahead on the development of the jet.

No they were not, just look at the jets in the first jet fighter, the Meteor compared to the first German jet fighter, the ME 262, the British engines were much better and more powerful.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
At the centre was placed Lithium Deuteride (a hydride of Lithium using heavy Hydrogen) and various other compounds. Boron acted as a nuclear moderator.

Boron cannot act as "moderator". It's an absorber of neutrons and would inhibit the fission process. It's like putting extra water in the fuel tank of your car.

It worked on a principle of artificially inducing what we nowadays call a Deuteron beam. If you collide Deuterium with superheated Lithium under high pressures then you can generate a rush of neutrons. Sufficient to trick the fissile material to react as if it was part of a larger critical mass of Uranium or Plutonium.

Seems like you are talking about essentially a thermonuclear weapon, which is of course impossible to detonate using conventional shaped charge.

I do have to agree there dereks... the Jumo 004 turbojets had an average service life of 25 hours
not only that but they were sensitive to rapid directional, altitude, or speed changes... Hence why it started life as a Bomber and attack aircraft but hitler intervened like with many projects and forced a fighter redesign which delayed it's entry into service by almost a year... without this delay it would have entered service soon enough to make a difference (late 43)

Still this actually proves the assertions many of us have been making in this thread and others like it. That is that it was bureaucracy and Poor decisions that kept the advanced technology from being built and used effectively not an absence of said advanced technology and research efforts... In addition the sheer AMOUNT of research being done in the Sheer amount of fields actually worked againstthem as they had so many projects going no single one had the consistent backing and resources dedicated to it to bring them to a point where they could be employed on the battlefield.

In that respect dereks and the rest are correct in that in quite a few fields by mid 1942 even allied technology had eclipsed German equipment in many areas... this was due to bureaucratic decisions and a sense of overconfidence that led groups like the luftwaffe to abandon it's original plans to continuously upgrade it's air force incrementally that left them flying late 30's designs throughout the war for the most part like the BF 109 .

But just to make it perfectly clear ... that doesn't mean the technology wasn't there it just means it WAS NOT EFFECTIVELY IMPLEMENTED or implemented at all in many cases. There are several examples even in mainstream histories of weapons and prototypes captured that were in working condition and not used which is quite perplexing...

The biggest example of this I find is the V2 tow pods that would have allowed nazi subs to attack the US East coast with SLBM's several intact and ready to use prototypes were captured... My personal theory is that much of the high command and engineers etcetera KNEW the war was turning against them by as early as 42 and started deliberately keeping certain projects from ever being used to attack the states so there was at least one fallback nation they could ask for mercy who hadn't had their homeland bombed by them.

Regardless of your view on the technologies and etcetera of this war it cannot be disputed that there was more going on behind the scenes than will EVER be admitted on ALL SIDES...

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The lined cavity (Munroe) effect though known since 1792 was not given any practical application in warfare until developed by the Nazis.

Once again you are very wrong, the British developed it before the Germans in the British No. 68 AT Grenade anti-tank weapon of 1940

Some people refuse to accept the facts and claim the Germans developed everything before the allies.

reply to post by thumper76


Allow me to quote from the Monsanto report prepared from a review of captured intelligence on the Nazi nuclear project for A.H. Compton of the Manhattan Project. The report poses several questions rhetorically and then the authors answer those questions from their investigations:

Source: [Excerpts from NARA file G371 report by Monsanto scientists Weinberg and Nordheim to A.H Compton of Manhattan project on state of Nazi nuclear science in WW2. Dated Nov 8 1945.]

“Point III. What was the state of German theory of the chain reaction?

Answer (C) Generally we would say their approach was in no wise inferior to ours; in some respects it was superior.”

VI. What bearing does this have on publication of the parts of the PPR dealing with principles of the chain reaction?

Answer: the Germans know how to design a lattice which will work. From the practical standpoint this is all that matters. The details of elegant perturbation theory or transport theory (which would be contained in Vol. III) or the details of heat transfer calculations (Vol. IV) would tell them nothing essential to the determination of lattice dimensions. They already knew how to calculate the optimum dimensions.

A question of ethics is raised by the existence of the German reports. In many cases, useful information is contained therein.

Hence the Monsanto Report authors are stating the case for concealment of Nazi nuclear science.



PS worth noting that Nordheim and Weinberg also prefaced their report by saying it was limited by the information which they were given access to, hinting that there was further information they could not read.

reply to post by mad scientist



You have yet to answer my question Mad Scientist so it's the kettle calling the pot black.

I have previously explained that the driving of superheated Lithium into Deuterium (in this case a deuteride) forms X-rays. Those X-rays create sufficient neutron flux to mimic the equivalent effect of critical mass. Very simple.

A small mass of fissile material at the core would be induced to fission by a (Lithium-Deuteride) fusion reaction.

Dueterium + Lithium6 = 2He4 + 22.4 MeV (X-ray energy)

That fissile material could be either Uranium 233, Uranium 235, or Plutonium 239 however in this specific case the Nazi scientists stipulated in their patents Uranium 233.

For example for a 5 kilogram mass, or 5000 grams of U233, one requires a production rate of 12,432,000,000,000,000 neutrons per second for spontaneous combustion.

The weight or mass of fissile material is less relevant than the neutron production rate. If one can produce the production rate by inducing external X-ray energy from a Lithium-Deuterium reaction then the actual mass becomes less relevant.

Allow me to quote from Edward Teller...

“We used them to define the working point in the HIBALL study, a design of a heavy ion driven ICF reactor, which was published in 1983...

Spherical implosion for achieving 1500 times fuel compression at pressures of 200 G/bar is the central problem for ICF gas dynamics. In respect of the paper of Gottfreid Guderley on converging shocks, published 1942 in wartime Germany became of particular importance for me

"Edward Teller lectures: lasers and inertial fusion energy" by Heinrich Hora, George Hunter Miley, pp.215-216

It so happens that R/Admiral Dr Otto Haxel achieved the same conditions which Teller was talking about using hollow charge explosives to implode two inch diameter hollow silver balls during early 1942. When the MWA abandoned this work it was taken over by Prof Kurt Diebner of HWA with the services of Schumann & Trinks.

reply to post by dereks


I'm simply disinterested in your attempts to derail the debate from the original issue.

Britain obtained this ineffectual little anti tank grenade only useful at 50 metres range against 40mm of armour by plaigerism of a German invention by a Swiss scientist.

Hollow Charge explosives were demontrated to Hitler in 1936. Franz Tomanek of the aviation research institute at Braunschweig demonstrated the first shaped charge weapon, a 7cm warhead in 1935.

reply to post by sy.gunson



S&F, reading your links, I had previously thought that the German physicists that remained in Germany through the nazi era had effectively sabotaged the effort to make a nuke bomb can't remember the names or the enrichment method they erroneously used, though possibly Karl Heisenberg was the chief of the project and main saboteur.

However your links and other tales I've come across in the past couple of years are leaving me intrigued and open minded about it, anyway I'm enjoying the read.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
I have previously explained that the driving of superheated Lithium into Deuterium (in this case a deuteride) forms X-rays. Those X-rays create sufficient neutron flux to mimic the equivalent effect of critical mass.

How do X-rays create neutron flux? Pray tell.

reply to post by Thepreye



Thanks for that but if you read the Farm Hall transcripts (secretly recorded conversations of Nazi nuclear scientists during imprisonment near Cambridge) then you discover they were very frightened for their own fates and some wished to distance themselves from their previous work.

Farm Hall

Heisnberg was a particular example of this and famously misrepresented a meeting with Niels Bohr in Copenhagen before Bohr fled to Sweeden.

When Heisenberg's biography Brighter than a Thousand Suns was published Bohr vehemently objected to Heisenberg's portrayal as trying to sabotage the Nazi effort. The only way thaty Heisenberg may have done so is through his overbearing incompetence towards the rival Gottow group.

At Harnak Haus conference in July 1942, Heisenberg was trying to promote development of a nuclear bomb to Speer and German Chiefs of staff. Milch in his unpublished memoirs recalled that he stood up and asked Heisenberg how big a wahead would need to be to level a whole city. Heisenberg replied no bigger than a pineapple.

Heisenberg misrepresented at Farm Hall that he did not understand the critical mass required for a bomb yet in 1941 a paper by Houtermanns was circulated to Heisenberg and other key Nazi scientists calculating the critical mass for Uranium and Plutonium with more accuracy than calculations by the Manhattan Project.

There is a lot of disinformation about Heisenberg and Nazi nuclear science, so thank you for the open minded approach. Glad I have some people thinking.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Gamma rays are naturally occuring neutron emissions.

X-rays are artificially induced neutron emissions.

In historical literature X-rays were considered different on the basis of wavelengths however their wavelengths ovelap so the old definition of X-rays is arbitrary and unhelpful. X-rays can range from relatively weak to very powerful and equivalent to Gamma radiation.

Neutron flux is merely a term referring to the number of neutrons passing through an area over a span of time.