Irish ship on collision course with Israeli navy near Gaza

reply to post by Mobius1974


Its only legal when its essential for matters of national security, Gaza was getting plates as aid so i doubt they pose much threat to "poor defence ridden isreal".

However, the legality of it is upto speculation
thats why i stated unlawful, from my perspective

Also, boarding that ship wasnt legal, international waters and blatent out right murder.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by UKDavidUK]

reply to post by vagabondrobb


Oops, my apologies. I misread...somehow...

Just an simple question, what gives Israel the right to stop or control Ships entering Gaza?

Is Gaza owned by Israel, are the Waters around Gaza owned by Israel?

If this is all about bringing Weapons to arm Palestinians, doesn't America do the same to Israel?


All I hear on these threads is that Israel has the right to defend itself...... are they the only ones with that right? and claiming the flotilla was a provocation, is that then what Israel is doing to Iran by stationing their Subs of the Coast?

reply to post by UKDavidUK


That is not correct.. When enforcing a blockade they are allowed to stop the ships in international waters. Its a fact.

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Mobius1974]

Here is what I have been able to find regarding the legality of what has been going on.

According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994:

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

For those that think this was piracy:

the definition of piracy under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, section 101, is clear that piracy can only occur where there are “illegal acts of violence or detention” that are “committed for private ends.” Israeli actions were legal under the law of armed conflict (as evidenced by the San Remo Manual) and in any event, were not committed for private ends. Anyone using the term piracy to describe the Israeli action is clearly not aware of international law on the subject.

Some more raw facts on the matter. Blame the captain of any ship that chooses to violate a blockade for any repercussions that follow.

* A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

* Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

* A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

* The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

* In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

* Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

* Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

* A State may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

* Note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

* Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel’s intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

www.redstate.com...

UN Law of the Sea
www.globelaw.com...

International Humanitarian Law
www.icrc.org...



[edit on 4-6-2010 by jibeho]

reply to post by jibeho


Excellent post.. Now all these mouth pieces..will stop talking about boarding in international waters..and they will jump to the blockade being illegal.. Blockade=LEGAL Boarding ship in international waters=LEGAL
Now all of you will jump subjects.. I know you will. it is what "you" do. Make one subject a talking point ... until the facts prove you wrong.. Then jump to another point in the matter and beat that to death!!!


Checkmate Athiests... 2nd Corinthians in your face!
Edward Current - look him up on Youtube.com He is hilarious!

[edit on 4-6-2010 by Mobius1974]

reply to post by Dr Expired

Survival is the priority of every free nation.

Survival is priority only for psychopaths.

In this Universe no one survives. Everybody knows that.
Massacring people because you're afraid of them is a criminal act.
Survival is the lamest of all excuses.

reply to post by Mobius1974


I'll be honest, that to me, all these posts do is argue the point of the legitimacy of the boarding and capture of ships like the SS Exodus heading for Palestine.

I personally think it short sighted of Israel to not spot the exact same political ploy they used to oust the British Mandate in Palestine being used against them..

reply to post by UKDavidUK


Wow.. why do people not look at the facts... It is legal if they are enforcing a blockade. PERIOD!.. Please look it up ..so we are not debating something that is 100% fact!

San Remo music festival is not an internationally recognized law. It's a music festival!

We have dealt with this earlier in this thread, so please don't repeat yourself with this false Israeli propaganda trick.

Euro-vision song contest too doesn't allow Israel to murder people in the open seas.

reply to post by DangerDeath


Speak english please. Some of us might not be as bright as yourself. Can you please put that cluster # into perspective for me please?

en.wikipedia.org...

The International Institute of Humanitarian Law is an independent, non-profit humanitarian organisation founded in 1970. Its headquarters are situated in Villa Ormond, Sanremo, Italy. A liaison office of the Institute is established in Geneva, Switzerland. The main purpose of the Institute is to promote the development of international humanitarian law, human rights, refugee law, immigration law and related issues.

International Institute....
Independent non-profit humanitarian organization...
The main purpose ... is to promote...

You call this "international law document"?
Very cheap, but nice try.

Game over.



[edit on 4-6-2010 by DangerDeath]

reply to post by DangerDeath


Are you addressing me? What you are posting has ZERO to do with anything I have posted. Are you confusing me with someone else?
Blockade of Gaza = LEGAL
Boarding ship in international water to uphold blockade = LEGAL
Prove me wrong ... don't dilute this with quotes that have ZERO to do with my talking points.
Because you think that the blockade is illegal.. you automaticly think the boarding was illegal.
Just because you DangerDeath thinks something is wrong.. does not make it wrong. If more people realized this.. we would be much better off.
As I have stated before.. I hope the whole region attacks Israel.. They deserve it.. But not for this. A good time to fight what you call the illegal blockade.. would have been prior to TRYING TO BREAK THROUGH IT..

reply to post by Mobius1974


I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the orchestrated effort to flood this and other forums on the Net with false arguments.

San Remo Manual is not an International Law Document. It is a wishful thinking of an non-profit organization financed by - whom? By whomever uses it as its own defense.

reply to post by DangerDeath


Who aproached the fine line of flooding with bad info? I hadn't seen that institues name used on this thread. Did I miss something?

reply to post by jibeho


I agree, excellent post of facts.

I posted earlier my opinion that the Captain of the Turk ship is and should be held responsible for any injuries and/or deaths of any civilians OR military personnel.

Anyones opinion of the blockade is moot, for it is a BLOCKADE, legal or not. The Capt of that ship was notified of the blockade and had full knowledge that running a blockade in an armed conflict zone would put his passengers in harms way.

He should be charged with murder and assault on the military personnel that responded to attempted blockade run.

The blood of innocents are on his hands (not saying the Israelis dont have any on theirs, but in THIS incident, blame should be squarely on the shoulders of the ship's Capt)

An Anology;

If you are a bus driver, and hoodlums have blockaded your route(illegally), and have notified via a sign that says 'stay the f**k out', will you continue to drive the bus through the blockade?
Will you be responsible if they shot all the passengers of your bus?

[edit on 4-6-2010 by ErEhWoN]

Douglas Guilfoyl, author of the book Shipping Interdiction and the Law of the Sea, and an expert on maritime law at the University College of London, said the real issue in his mind is that of damage to the civilian population — even if the formal requirements of international law have been followed.

Whether or not Israel is engaged in a legal blockade (a recognized tool of warfare, Guilfoyl conceded, that could allow the stopping and search of a ship on the high seas), but it depends on several requirements:
1.) there needs to be an armed conflict;
2.) the limits of the blockade need to be defined, and properly publicized;
3.) and, most importantly, a blockade should not proceed if it violates the principle of proportionality, if it inflicts excessive damage on a civilian population in relation to the concrete military advantage expected.

“Now, if those requirements are met”, Guilfoyl said, “then yes, a ship could have been stopped on the high seas if there’s a suspicion that it is going to attempt to breach the blockade”.

“Each state is going to take its own view whether it’s [this blockade has] met the requirements of international law”, Guilfoyl told Al-Jazeera … but “a good metric is whether or not the blockade has been accepted by other states, and there’s certainly been a lot of condemnation of this blockade”.

But, the real issue is the question of damage to the civilian population — and here you have UN agencies saying that insuffiicent aid, less than 25 percent of what’s needed on a daily basis is getting into Gaza — that alone raises serious concerns about the legality of the blockade, even if formal requirements have been complied with, according to Guilfoyl.

reply to post by ErEhWoN



www.khaleejtimes.com.../middleeast/2010/June/middleeast_June66.xml

Using a tannoy, Tokalak told the approaching craft that his ship was in international waters and carried nothing illegal. He said the other captains did the same.

The Israelis threatened to open fire and sink them, he said.

The Israelis have said their soldiers opened fire only when they boarded the Mavi Marmara and came under attack from pro-Palestinian activists, but Tokalak saw events differently.

“They started shooting directly at Mavi Marmara. They didn’t care if it was the front or back of the ship,” he said.
Empty Life Jackets

Tokalak saw smoke rising from the ship and the helicopters descending. “I thought they would sink the ship.”

“The captain of Mavi Marmara said he was wounded and there were others on his ship who were also wounded. He sounded panicked and we got panicked too.”

Captain was wounded before commandos descended on the ship.

Did they think they would bring flowers?

I am no fan of the Apartheid govt in Israel, but if your going to willfully disregard a blockade, especially Israeli, you should expect some lumps.

This is what diplomatic solutions are for. If the actions of the Israel govt are not the their licking, boycott, issue sanctions.

Running a military blockade with innocent civilians no board shows culpable negligence on the Captains part.

Remember, the #1 law is the law of COMMON SENSE>

If you are going to run a military blockade, better have a BIGGER military that the force that is trying to stop you. Not rocket science.

Bringing civilians with you is negligence at the least, murder or manslaughter in my opinion.

To all of you knit-picking irelivant non-important issues while derailing and generally weighing down each and every thread that contains the words Israeli, illegal or anything else to do with the murders on board the Turkish aid ship, I have a bit of advice that you may or may not pay heed to.......

Namely this, I am a humanitarian who knows that the exploits of the IDF on that ship were murderous. Anyone who dosnt feel that well thats up to them.

This is about the Irish ship. A ship confirmed as carrying school equipment, cement and toys for those who are hearded like cattle behind a barbed wire wall. For those whose children had limbs burned off by WP, for those who have a right to fight the tyranny that rolls over them in the name of Israeli policies.

If you are representing the Israeli propoganda machine you are waisting your time. We are not blind, nor are we stupid.

You have a right to your individual opinion. That opinion does not get stronger through the use of gang pressure here in ATS. In other forums it might, but we are above that.

The "Rachel Corrie" carries the hopes and prayers of more than the palestinians in Gaza. It carries the hopes and prayers of everyone who opposes tyranny, murder and imprisonment. With that in mind I can only suggest that the antics online by the Israeli lobby are in fact creating more support from those who were undecided.

Respects to you all and god speed and protect the "Rachel Corrie"