Female posters incapable of original thought?

Originally posted by Jenna
Do you think that might be part of what's causing the idea that a woman on her own isn't capable of being intelligent enough to understand a topic well enough to discuss it?

Certainly. For many years, women weren't generally "on their own". They had priorities like raising the kids and seeing to the needs of their husbands. Women have recently come into their own, and as you can see from some of the responses in this thread, there are some who are EXTREMELY uncomfortable with it. And there are others who realize the truth in the intelligence and power of women.

The difference I see, though, is that when it's assumed or known the poster the ad hominem is aimed at is male, the attacker typically leaves intelligence out of it completely. It becomes "you're not from here", "you haven't researched it enough", etc., instead of "you're not capable of understanding this because you're female". A nit-pick perhaps, but it's a difference I've noticed.

Yeah, intelligence is something that hasn't been historically attributed to women. We're in the middle of a shift. We can look in the past and see a time when there were practically no female scientists, for example, but in the future, scientists, doctors, engineers, etc., will be of both genders equally. It's really pretty threatening to some.

Originally posted by maybereal11
(3) Some people just have a passive and sometimes not so passive hatred of women.

There are man haters out there too.

This is a really important point. Sometimes people just have crap from their upbringing that they have yet to work through. They think that attacking a woman's intelligence is the most effective way to "get" to her. Kind of like attacking a man's sexual prowess.

I've seen some very interesting posts in this thread. "Interesting" in a bad way. It's really quite amusing and ironic that women are being demeaned for a lack of intelligence...

reply to post by King Loki


I read your entire post as did Jenna and my take away was that you read the entire Op and it's questions and your response was..

"And your trying to portray intelligence with this thread ..... 1 word ... FAIL"

Lets try this...what was the intent of that statement...in particular..."and your trying to portray intelligence with this thread" ?

What made you think that the OP was somehow an attempt at displaying intelligence? Rather than simply what the OP was?

Not sure if there is much hope of getting through here.....

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by maybereal11
reply to post by King Loki

 

I read your entire post as did Jenna and my take away was that you read the entire Op and it's questions and your response was..

"And your trying to portray intelligence with this thread ..... 1 word ... FAIL"

Lets try this...what was the intent of that statement...in particular..."and your trying to portray intelligence with this thread" ?

What made you think that the OP was somehow an attempt at displaying intelligence? Rather than simply what the OP was?

Not sure if there is much hope of getting through here.....

well you should probably read the entire thread then and see what i was talking about ... she knew she was misquoting she has done it more then once

Originally posted by andy1033
lol, you have no idea what happened in my life, so i have every right as a human. You can make your statements about i should feel but my life is fact and not based on 1 female doing this.

I never said what I thought you should feel, I said I don't understand why you condemn the many for the sins of the few.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Are they under certain topics? You having a personal battle with anyone in particular?

It seems to me if it's just a couple of people who have you upset, it would be better if you used the complaint feature directed against them rather than set off a male against female bunch of nonsense.

Nope, not on BTS (I never go to that section), no personal battles, no specific topics. I've also said many times in this thread that it's not all male posters, it's a minority, so I'm not trying to set off a battle of the sexes either. I'm trying to understand the logic behind the comments I've seen made, and not just directed at me, without pointing fingers at anyone. I was trying to be tactful and polite about it even though there's nothing tactful or polite about the posts I'm referring to. The discussion seemed productive to me till the last few pages.

reply to post by King Loki


what are you doing? trying to see how many insults you can hurl per second before a mod asks you "what are you doing?" testing the limits? playing a few mind games with the natives? checking to see if the ladies have any moxy? what's your game?

this is really quite curious and more than little distracting.

Originally posted by Jenna
Over the years since I first joined ATS, something has been bothering me. There seems to be a persistent belief that women are somehow incapable of understanding some issues or that they should essentially know their place. This isn’t an opinion voiced by all male posters, nor is it my intention to imply such a thing, but it has been voiced on occasion and it typically shows up in the middle of an otherwise civil discussion. What I’d like to understand is why this view is held at all. How did it come about? Why, in this day and age, is it still held at all?

I’ve never considered myself to be much of a feminist, though I suppose this thread would indicate otherwise. I don’t believe that women are oppressed (not any more anyway), that we are victimized or exploited by men daily, or that women are in any way the superior sex. Nor do I believe that we should need to prove ourselves anymore than a man does in order to be taken seriously. I’m not out to demonize all men or call them all sexist pigs, though I’m sure someone will inevitably post without fully reading what I’m saying and claim that I am. In my mind, gender is not an indication of intelligence or worth and no one gender has a monopoly on either. Men and women are equal, different but equal. But I digress, back to the topic at hand.

Literature, mythology, and folklore from virtually every part of the globe contains tales of women who were fierce in battle, leaders of armies, revered leaders of their people, heroines, goddesses of war, etc. Women were not always seen as weak, helpless, and incapable of intelligent thought. This seems to be a relatively new development in the history of mankind. One that I find irritating in general, but significantly more so on a website such as this where we all come to discuss and learn.

As much as I’d like to do otherwise, I’ll refrain from providing direct quotes to avoid pointing fingers at any one poster. The comments that I’m referring to either flat out state or infer that:

• Women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;
  
• They should stick to neutral topics where they will be better capable of contributing;
  
• Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no individual opinions;
  
• Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man;
  
• Claims of sexism are unfounded because women irrationally believe that everything is a conspiracy against them.
  

That’s to say nothing of the rest of the sexist comments one can find here with a quick google search. My focus for this thread though isn’t sexism in general, but the mistaken belief that being female makes someone incapable of original thought and/or incapable of understanding a topic put forth for discussion. What is it that has caused some posters to believe that's true? More importantly, why is it brought up mid-discussion in an attempt to invalidate and demean female posters for doing nothing more than discussing the topic at hand?

if it makes you feel better, i read the first two paragraphs and concluded your not an idiot


I think there is this belief that guys act on calculation while girls act on emotion. Which is why alot of guys wouldnt like a girl to be president.
But even if the above IS true(not saying i believe it is), there is still no right or wrong between emotion and calculation. Sometimes emotion and instinct can be a more important trait than calculation.

Well, with my moniker, I get mistaken for a 14-year-old girl with adolescent PMS all the time. So I feel for you sisters.

Also, in college, I had guys be nice to me because they were gay and I was good looking. I couldn't tell if they,... well, yeah, they just wanted me for my body.

"Eyes on my face, fellas" I would say.

OK, I'm sure I should take this more seriously -- I respect and don't people based on what they say. Some people have issues with everyone, and mask it with excuses. At least on the internet -- nobody needs to know WHO you are.

If they disagree with you, they picture you as a lonely chubby kid in your parents basement. If you tell them you are a girl and they are a genius -- they believe you. Overall, if someone is disrespecting you -- they are probably doing it to everybody, and it's just their issue. You might be sensitive and take it personally -- but we ALL GET IT.

The way I see it there are always those who have to hold someone responsible for all the ills of the world. Some blame people of color while others blame men/women etc. It's an easy explanation in what can be a complex confusing world. It gives them a sense of security and order to label/categorize people. I really can't say I've seen it more on ATS than in real life.

It may have a lot to do with how we are raised but my hubby & his bro are like night and day. My hubby started working and taking care of himself at a young age. He got out into the world where his brother is still living off of momma.

My bro-in-law once told me "women are physically built to stand at a sink and do dishes." His sister got him back though he told her to go get him a glass of water so she took it from the toilet bowl and watched him drink it.

In defense of old guys I haven't had any problem with them at all. They are usually appreciative of younger women who are capable. Their generation of women were often quite pampered and demanding. In fact the first old guy in my life, my dad, always took me fishing/camping in the wilderness. I was his helper with home projects. He gave me my first set of tools. My mom on the other hand was determined to keep me pink & frilly but that just wasn't me. She still hasn't gotten over it. I would say I've heard more sexist remarks from her than any old guy.

Damn...what has happened to this thread???

It started out as a logical debate...and now it appears that if you even disagree with a female you are assumed to be "part of the problem".

I'm sorry ladies (in this thread)...you HAVE let your emotions get in the way of a logical debate.

It's not sexist to say that men and women are different...and men and women ARE different. Yes we think different, yes women do tend to use more emotion in their thinking, yes you can be a stupid female...just like you can be a stupid male.

And yes...in my experience women do and will mis-quote or baiting someone just to "test" someone or prove a point (and OP it seems this is what you have done with this thread...you didn't have examples...but you knew you could find at least one in this thread). It's not just me who sees this...they don't have commericials or lines in movies because they aren't true. How familiar is this scene...Woman: "Honey...does this dress make me look too fat?", Man:"No honey, that dress doesn't make you look too fat". Woman:"WHAT DO YOU MEAN NOT TOO FAT? ARE YOU SAYING I'M FAT???". Now the man simply answered the EXACT question the women asked...but still...that won't stop the coming argument. I don't know how many times I have played this game with my own wife...and it does cause an arguement BECAUSE WE THINK DIFFERENTLY.



I hate these threads, because it becomes mis-quoting, accusations, and complete abandoning of logic.


I also hate to call people out...but everyone else is doing it so why not....Riley...the only time I see you in a thread you are causing trouble...and always around the "sexist" issue. You mis-quote and accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being sexist...and all it does is make people not take you serious.


This has become a huge accusation party driven by EMOTION...not logic or intelligence...not sure what this implies to the question posed in the OP.


P.S. Here is my original reply to this thread...this was before all the emotion started to derail a logical conversation. I know if I don't post this for "context"...I'll be labeled a woman hater. Original Reply

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by King Loki

 

what are you doing? trying to see how many insults you can hurl per second before a mod asks you "what are you doing?" testing the limits? playing a few mind games with the natives? checking to see if the ladies have any moxy? what's your game?

this is really quite curious and more than little distracting.

the reason is because in all my time on ATS i have never seen anyone do this once let alone multiple times in 1 thread ... i am actually truly disgusted by this behavior and it cannot be tolerated ... if people get banned for hoax threads why cant some one be banned for deliberately doing misleading things multiple times in 1 thread.

I thought the world of ATS until i saw the OP doing this ... this has shocked me almost beyond rational words tbh ...

truly the most disgusting thing i have ever witnessed on ATS

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by andy1033
lol, you have no idea what happened in my life, so i have every right as a human. You can make your statements about i should feel but my life is fact and not based on 1 female doing this.

I never said what I thought you should feel, I said I don't understand why you condemn the many for the sins of the few.

lol again, everyone is just a total of there genes and life. There are plenty of males like me, but the media never reports on them. I wonder how many innocent males are in jail for being like me not interested in your gender.

Do you even understand how it feels to have your life taken away from you over the way you feel.

I judge people on more than just a few, and i made my mind up long ago on what i found in society and not being able to just live my life.

Critical thinking for me is something females lack, and i do not care how ignorant that sounds to you, i know this from my life. Of course not many males have it either, just listen to clowns like alex jones and many in the truth movement to see that.

The thread question is do females exhibit original thought, i would say no, but not many males do either. I would not take it personally, hardly anyone changes the world as they say. Original thought is something hardly anyone has, and thats a fact.

My life on this planet has taught me, what it has taught me, and i have learned that it is true that females do not have original thought from my life. But i would not take that personally as most males do not have it either.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by andy1033]

Cease the off topic and personal posts now. If you have an issue with another member's posts, use the 'ALERT' feature to alert the staff.

Do not resort to attaching each other.

Off topic attacks past this notice will be removed and possible posting bans will be issued.

Thank you.

Women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;
They should stick to neutral topics where they will be better capable of contributing;
Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no individual opinions;
Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man;
Claims of sexism are unfounded because women irrationally believe that everything is a conspiracy against them.

>> I think you are describing a person who thinks that there is not such a thing as evolution, but is a social darwinist. A person who collects Medicare and can't stand big government. A person who thinks they are educated, but thinks teacher and intellectuals suck.

A brain dead, backwater, moron who can only feel good if they put someone down. If you are defensive, or insecure -- these sorts of people will sniff you out and bully you. That's what they do.

If you were ethnic, or small or fat or whatever -- they would have a problem with you -- and it only takes one jerkoff in a thousand descent people to make someone feel unaccepted.

For example; My wife is a beautiful Latina lady, but right now she is going through some health problems. We are at a club that has restricted membership -- but we are paid up and with members to play volleyball. For some reason, she always gets the one snotty lady eyeballing her. Me -- I could care less and I never really look to see if someone is annoyed by my presence. My wife brings it up to another member and he says; "Oh THAT lady..." because she is a PIA to everyone.

There are systemic problems, but for the most part, I think there are a few morons out there, who spread nothing but problems, and they make everyone feel unwelcome. If you count the number of people NOT giving you negative reactions -- that will almost always be over 99% of the people.

People who feel persecuted sometimes are. But most often, we are insecure before, we get singled out.

reply to post by Jenna


this is true. How many times and was it the same person?

Hi Jenna, nice thread. Perhaps it is a simple matter of punctuation:

"A woman without her man is nothing."

"A woman: without her, man is nothing."

But seriously. I personally don't see much evidence of your claim and hold you in high regard despite our numerous scuffles. With the likes of yourself, Benevolent Heretic, DGTempe, Silo13, LadyinWating and numerous others, I'd say yall are some of my favorite to read.

Many times, I'm not even aware of a poster's gender unless their screen name or Avatar is a tip off. Many use asexual names / images. In fact, I've fallen into a few speed traps from false assumptions. Plus, there are a fair share of female Mods, "Conspiracy Chicks" notwithstanding.

Perhaps sometimes an adversary will play the gender card simply because they've been pwnd. And you are quite good at that.

ETA: It is probably all those fife-blowing faux patriots who think women shoUld be relegated to churning butter.






[edit on 7-5-2010 by kinda kurious]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
It's not sexist to say that men and women are different...and men and women ARE different. Yes we think different, yes women do tend to use more emotion in their thinking, yes you can be a stupid female...just like you can be a stupid male.

I agree. I haven't seen anyone claim that saying we're different is sexist. I said we're different in the OP.

And yes...in my experience women do and will mis-quote or baiting someone just to "test" someone or prove a point (and OP it seems this is what you have done with this thread...you didn't have examples...but you knew you could find at least one in this thread).

Absolutely incorrect. Believe what you like but my OP was written because of examples I saw in a thread last night. I have links to them that I could post, but I decided to take the higher road and not do so. I was trying to not be an ass and point fingers at someone, singling them out. So my option here was to be an ass and point fingers, or not point fingers and be accused of baiting people. Which would you have me do?

Originally posted by Exv8densez
reply to post by Jenna

 

Oh I know what you mean. Lots of macho-bravado in here.

One would think that a site like this would be the last place where chauvinism/sexism reigns, but it is sadly quite the contrary. In fact, the gender bastardization is plaguing the whole net. Is it just a reflexion of current society or is it the frustrations and insecurities of those who bark the loudest when hidden behind a computer?

The focus on gender and race just ruins great conversations imo!


[edit on 7-5-2010 by Exv8densez]

I'm sorry, this just hasn't been my experience. Not here. Not anywhere on-line. I'm astonished at some of the examples of veiled (and not so veiled) misogyny that have been presented in this thread.

However, I do feel there are some disturbing social rumblings that may gain momentum and reinstate an unspoken and eventually overt 'woman is less than...' social precedent as the norm. I get far more nasty references to my infantile female brain and understanding out in the real world.

As far as a 'recent development'; I guess define recent. The greeks were pretty convinced women were ever-child idiots. The Romans weren't really much better, it goes on and on.

When survival becomes more brutal the physically strong call the majority of the shots. In our species, that's the men. I'm not saying it's fair, but (with comparatively few exceptions) it's unfortunately true.

Actually Jenna, I've always been very fond of the reasoned and heartfelt posts by female members - in several forums. For example, most of the hype and fear and hatemongering in the field of UFOlogy and other related topics tends to be typed out by...guys. I'm a guy myself, so admitting this is kinda tough.