Female posters incapable of original thought?

Over the years since I first joined ATS, something has been bothering me. There seems to be a persistent belief that women are somehow incapable of understanding some issues or that they should essentially know their place. This isn’t an opinion voiced by all male posters, nor is it my intention to imply such a thing, but it has been voiced on occasion and it typically shows up in the middle of an otherwise civil discussion. What I’d like to understand is why this view is held at all. How did it come about? Why, in this day and age, is it still held at all?

I’ve never considered myself to be much of a feminist, though I suppose this thread would indicate otherwise. I don’t believe that women are oppressed (not any more anyway), that we are victimized or exploited by men daily, or that women are in any way the superior sex. Nor do I believe that we should need to prove ourselves anymore than a man does in order to be taken seriously. I’m not out to demonize all men or call them all sexist pigs, though I’m sure someone will inevitably post without fully reading what I’m saying and claim that I am. In my mind, gender is not an indication of intelligence or worth and no one gender has a monopoly on either. Men and women are equal, different but equal. But I digress, back to the topic at hand.

Literature, mythology, and folklore from virtually every part of the globe contains tales of women who were fierce in battle, leaders of armies, revered leaders of their people, heroines, goddesses of war, etc. Women were not always seen as weak, helpless, and incapable of intelligent thought. This seems to be a relatively new development in the history of mankind. One that I find irritating in general, but significantly more so on a website such as this where we all come to discuss and learn.

As much as I’d like to do otherwise, I’ll refrain from providing direct quotes to avoid pointing fingers at any one poster. The comments that I’m referring to either flat out state or infer that:

• Women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;
  
• They should stick to neutral topics where they will be better capable of contributing;
  
• Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no individual opinions;
  
• Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man;
  
• Claims of sexism are unfounded because women irrationally believe that everything is a conspiracy against them.
  

That’s to say nothing of the rest of the sexist comments one can find here with a quick google search. My focus for this thread though isn’t sexism in general, but the mistaken belief that being female makes someone incapable of original thought and/or incapable of understanding a topic put forth for discussion. What is it that has caused some posters to believe that's true? More importantly, why is it brought up mid-discussion in an attempt to invalidate and demean female posters for doing nothing more than discussing the topic at hand?

Well , not that I condone that sort of sexism, but some posters are raised differently than you and I OP. I personally feel in this day and age ANY suggestion that someone doesn't have something to offer because of something completely irrelevant (like gender or skin color) is socially backward. I agree there are still a lot of racists and a lot of sexists in our world, but as a general consensus I don't think most people hold the same beliefs as aforementioned posters. *shrug* Sorry they treat you or other woman like that but they surely don't speak for all us males . Then again we still live in a world where a woman gets paid less for the same job that a male might hold.

Could be worse. You could be an American woman of African descent who is a single mother and a lesbian with ADHD as well as being paraplegic.

I think people just find differences and then attack them as weaknesses.

Don't take it personally, it's only ignorant windbags that pick on someone for anything other than their mindset.

Whilst I allow someone to be proud of their heritage/gender/age/body/ability they generally haven't done anything to get it, so it's a weak pride at best. How someone puts themselves across is actually important and is the cause of their own actions.

Keep the chin up and don't let someone tell you anything that demeans you (unless it's me, in which case listen )

-m0r

reply to post by Jenna


It's a joke. We do it all the time where I am.

It is the natural digestive system of society. Something is offensive, so people make fun of it. Making fun of it makes it common;y known. The problem is solved so the offense is no longer in society. Then people forget about it. Then 10 years later its brought up again for jokes and jiggles.

That's just the way it goes.

Something is only offensive if you accept it is.

Originally posted by ElijahWan
Sorry they treat you or other woman like that but they surely don't speak for all us males

.

No, they don't. Which is why I made sure I put it in the OP that I know not all male posters make those comments. And there's no need for you to apologize, you aren't one of the fools who think being female makes someone less intelligent.

For the bright side of those points, I think government agenda in mass media is right gung-ho for women's liberation, and to the point of ultra-liberation! It's out of hand for both gender portrayals, extremes everywhere, and it's really showing on the youth I know at least. They don't put up with anything which resembles constraint however, and so I think it is also an age of youth setting themselves up for many mistakes - an age of free sex is again here, drug culture, clubbing lifestyles, and cheap fame. It's no different than when I was growing up in the 80's and 90's in many respects, but it has a lot more attitude to it now, it's lost it's humourous aspects in favour of radicalism, and it's the new virtue to trample innocence it seems - the younger the age the better.

Most people I know support equality of the sexes, which is also a maturity-added concept. I don't know if this culture I describe represents everywhere, but it's what I've seen happening. It's shallow these days unfortunately, I don't find many youths quality of conversation very appealing. I know it's driven the way it is on purpose, and it saddens me to see popular culture so absorbing for many. I think as real-life events start really shaking things up that this will change, a lot and in a hurry too.

For now, I'd have to disagree. If anything I see youth, of both genders, over-liberated and quite uncaring about what damage their generalizations, knee-jerk judgements on all manner of subject-matter, and small-sightedness towards anything beyond limited life-scopes. That's only the downside, and looking at the problems you've described. Overall, I think over-liberal attitude is causing the ineffectuals you describe.

Though certain factors were not explained, I am a female poster, and I know for a fact that its not that we have certain lacks in our femininity that make us unable to give give certain input, but the fact that we do not "fly off the handle", or "take things so serious", we were born (whether some believe it or not) with the notion that we had to work harder, that we had to make a point, "but make it count", I am outspoken in a sense and it took me a long, long time to even post here, because I thought that "certain" people wouldn't take me serious, well, I'm over it and I post as much as I can, because my voice does count, and I don't think that your sexist for this post, as a matter of fact I would like to thank you, because most of the women here (I'm not the representative) but I would think that this would give a louder voice for women that have something to say, we are the lovers, mothers, children, contributors, and friends and though we have a lot on our plate, we still find the time to go to a place like ATS and have our voices heard.

So all the women out there let us be heard....
My 2 cents

Originally posted by m0r1arty
Don't take it personally, it's only ignorant windbags that pick on someone for anything other than their mindset.

Most of the comments I've seen along those lines haven't been directed at me personally, they're usually directed at other female posters, they just never make any sense. I don't get the logic behind assuming that if someone's bits are on the inside they have less intelligence than someone whose bits are on the outside.

Keep the chin up and don't let someone tell you anything that demeans you (unless it's me, in which case listen

)

I'll keep that in mind.

I believe it is everywhere you look, it just depends on if you're focusing in on it or not. Not trying to say that a "thick-skin" is needed when reading these forums, but in all honesty it can be difficult with written communication to pick up voice-inflection, emotion, deeper meaning and whether or not a comment is made in a derogatory manner.

Sure some things are stated that are less than acceptable to some people, but understanding that not everyone has grown up in the same culture/environment/standards that some of us have will allow yourself to overlook some of the snide/condescending remarks that others might make.

I'm not one to think there is a superior race/gender/belief. We are all the same on the deeper level. 23 chromosomes. Some have an X in there, some have a Y. Does that make a huge difference, not really. In fact, I do believe we all start as a female during that first development from an egg into an oppose-able thumb being with the capabilities of thought and such. Women rock. Men do too.

You should spend less time on here, the ironing will be really piling up and those dishes wont wash themselves.......

Gets his coat sharpish

In all seriousness, i think this is one of the better sites for gender neautrality. Im glad it doesnt show male or female on your status as i take each poster as i find them, dont care what their genitalia is. Muppets on here are muppets regardless of their sex

Well when you are being unintelligent, I think it has everything to do with your intelligence if that makes you feel better. Occasionally, in your case, it seems to also be a desire to win, which makes you ride an unintelligent vehicle long after you should have pulled the
rip cord. Rigidity is the descendant of all things extra stupid, sex is not... BTW I am
not ripping on you, I have sown a dunce cap to my head for convenience, we are human,
stupidity is abundant.

Originally posted by Gorman91
It's a joke. We do it all the time where I am.

It is the natural digestive system of society. Something is offensive, so people make fun of it. Making fun of it makes it common;y known. The problem is solved so the offense is no longer in society. Then people forget about it. Then 10 years later its brought up again for jokes and jiggles.

There's a difference in jokingly telling a female to get in the kitchen and make you a pie, and telling a female poster that she isn't intelligent enough to understand the topic being discussed though. My husband and male friends say things jokingly all the time and it doesn't bother me because it's obvious they aren't serious.

The comments I'm talking about here are meant to be taken literally. When you point out it was a sexist comment and they respond by telling you that women just aren't capable of understanding the topic it kinda removes all doubt about whether or not they were joking don't you think?

reply to post by Northwarden


So you would attribute the comments to the age and maturity of the poster? I'm not disagreeing, just clarifying.

reply to post by Jenna

why

I'll give you two reasons. They may not be applicable in all cases.

1)
For reasons that I'm not totally clear on, western cuture seems to have adopted the idea that woman are emotional and men are intellectual. Again...I don't know why, or where this idea came from, but it is a well established stereotype. If the majority of posters on ATS are english-speaking westerners, it should come as no surprise that it would occassionally be brought up.

2)

why is it brought up mid-discussion in an attempt to invalidate and demean female posters

Because it is an effective tactic. Oh...it's not something you'd learn in a formal debate class, but appealing to emotions, insulting your opponents and generally pulling out complete non-sequitors can be extremely effective to shut down debate. when people are angry, it's generally more difficult for them to think clearly, and the quality of their discussion degrades. Remember there are both debators...and audience. Someone might not be arguing for your benefit or theirs, but for the dozens of lurkers reading the trhead but not participating. If someone can make someone else angry, or distract them into defending themselves rather than discussing the original topic, this will result in the audience no longer listening to their ideas.

Obviously this tactic is not limited to women. Just take a look around at how often people are inaccurately accused of being ignorant/racist/etc. The tactic simply requires throwing the right ammunition at the right target. If someone attempting this knows you're a woman, that immediately gives them ammunition to use.

Also keep in mind that many people have a "pack" mentality: "Be the pack, defend the pack, fight all outsiders." Let's say there is a man and a woman debating, and a neutral man listening. By remindning the other man that they're both men, he may sometimes be able to trigger that pack behavior, at which point the subconscious encourages the men to "stick together," and disagree with the woman because she is "an outsider." You'll see thus behavior in many places outside of ATS, of course, and it is by no means limited to gender. Any group identification may be used.



[edit on 7-5-2010 by LordBucket]

My wife posts here sometimes, and guess what?

She is way smarter than almost any of you.

Her comments are way better than mine, and more insightful, better researched etc.

However, there are some really dumb chicks (and guys) who post here. And I mean really dumb.

I do notice there are a few girls around here that "build popularity" and a "reputation" and make tons of friends and are all drama-oriented like a 16yr old high school girl. Those people annoy me badly.

They are usually in BTS and mutter though. You know who you are.

My wife thinks they are retards too. I told you she was smarter than me

I've got to admit that I neither see women as superior or inferior, but we are different as each human is different... tho I have to admit to a deep dislike of the feminist dribble... guess it is a cultural thingy..

As far as I am concerned we (locally) are finally getting back to the male/female equality my ancestors had.. But still have a way to go... I really want to reference "my other half" to mean something again..

My partner is my other half, she is my equal.. and it boggles my mind that it has taken nearly 1,000 for women to reclaim that position, and still struggle to this day..

Originally posted by Jenna
Over the years since I first joined ATS, something has been bothering me. There seems to be a persistent belief that women are somehow incapable of understanding some issues or that they should essentially know their place. This isn’t an opinion voiced by all male posters, nor is it my intention to imply such a thing, but it has been voiced on occasion and it typically shows up in the middle of an otherwise civil discussion. What I’d like to understand is why this view is held at all. How did it come about? Why, in this day and age, is it still held at all?

I’ve never considered myself to be much of a feminist, though I suppose this thread would indicate otherwise. I don’t believe that women are oppressed (not any more anyway), that we are victimized or exploited by men daily, or that women are in any way the superior sex. Nor do I believe that we should need to prove ourselves anymore than a man does in order to be taken seriously. I’m not out to demonize all men or call them all sexist pigs, though I’m sure someone will inevitably post without fully reading what I’m saying and claim that I am. In my mind, gender is not an indication of intelligence or worth and no one gender has a monopoly on either. Men and women are equal, different but equal. But I digress, back to the topic at hand.

Literature, mythology, and folklore from virtually every part of the globe contains tales of women who were fierce in battle, leaders of armies, revered leaders of their people, heroines, goddesses of war, etc. Women were not always seen as weak, helpless, and incapable of intelligent thought. This seems to be a relatively new development in the history of mankind. One that I find irritating in general, but significantly more so on a website such as this where we all come to discuss and learn.

As much as I’d like to do otherwise, I’ll refrain from providing direct quotes to avoid pointing fingers at any one poster. The comments that I’m referring to either flat out state or infer that:

• Women are incapable of understanding an issue so complex as the one being discussed;
  
• They should stick to neutral topics where they will be better capable of contributing;
  
• Men in a group will each speak their own mind, women in a group will just develop mind-think and agree with the majority because they have no individual opinions;
  
• Women cannot have an independent/rational/correct thought without first having it explained to them by a man;
  
• Claims of sexism are unfounded because women irrationally believe that everything is a conspiracy against them.
  

That’s to say nothing of the rest of the sexist comments one can find here with a quick google search. My focus for this thread though isn’t sexism in general, but the mistaken belief that being female makes someone incapable of original thought and/or incapable of understanding a topic put forth for discussion. What is it that has caused some posters to believe that's true? More importantly, why is it brought up mid-discussion in an attempt to invalidate and demean female posters for doing nothing more than discussing the topic at hand?

I would like to offer some direct quotes of this sexist behavior, found in the following thread



1. First sexist attack (www.abovetopsecret.com... )

‘’aboveandbeyond, I don't mean to appear rude or callous, but i don't think military matters are for you to discuss. you just haven't earned it. you'd be the first to cower in the corner uttering some skirt-clutching squeals of horror like 'what are THEY going to do about it? THEY - never YOU. i know what i said doesn't sound politically correct but it's time someone said it. women really need to conduct a reality check. i'm sure you've a lot to offer on ats maybe it'd be better to choose a more neutral topic where you can actually contribute rather than pulling one-liners out of your girlish a**’’

2. My response ( www.abovetopsecret.com... )

‘’And who do you think 'convinced' girls to wear dresses, long hair and all the rest of it in the first place? Five years is a long time and surely it didn't just happen on a whim, right? I must say I'm surprised, I expected that sexist opinion regarding women's knowledge about war to be gone but it's still there...how is telling me to shove something up my ''girlish a**'' anywhere near nice’’


3. Another sexist attack (www.abovetopsecret.com... )

‘’Wearing a dress equals conspiracy ponytails are a conspiracy..yeah,everything is just one big damn conspiracy to turn women into inferior creatures. ah,not to mention the lack of that precious organ between their legs-damn,that's one heck of a conspiracy! besides,look at their responses,sums their psyche better than any study.’’



To be honest, I’m surprised I wasn’t called a little girl and told to go back to playing with dolls because I don’t deserve to comment on ‘important matters’.

Originally posted by saabster5
I believe it is everywhere you look, it just depends on if you're focusing in on it or not. Not trying to say that a "thick-skin" is needed when reading these forums, but in all honesty it can be difficult with written communication to pick up voice-inflection, emotion, deeper meaning and whether or not a comment is made in a derogatory manner.

Very true. Some of the comments I've seen kinda jerk your attention straight to them because they are just so out of place. They usually look like this:

Civil discussion
Civil discussion
Women aren't smart enough to understand this, you should be in a different thread.
Civil discussion
Civil discussion
Wait a minute, what?

Sometimes you don't have to even be thinking about it to find them.

reply to post by Jenna


Absolutely! I see no real lack of confidence among younger women I know, if anything, they're too headstrong for their own good! I find the most successful (ie. emotionally stable, learned, aware, etc - not meaning money-wise) are those who have taken a stance against the overt liberalism, tamed their lives to responsible levels, and shown that maturity earlier.



[edit on 7-5-2010 by Northwarden]

Originally posted by expatwhite
You should spend less time on here, the ironing will be really piling up and those dishes wont wash themselves.......

Gets his coat sharpish

Yeah, you're probably right...

In all seriousness, i think this is one of the better sites for gender neautrality. Im glad it doesnt show male or female on your status as i take each poster as i find them, dont care what their genitalia is. Muppets on here are muppets regardless of their sex

I agree for the most part it's almost completely gender neutral. That's one of the things I love about this site. That's part of what makes the whole thing so disconcerting when those comments are made.