Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

You did not answer my question. What if he is lying, how does that affect your opinion?

If any man is found lying, his credibility decreases, here (ATS), there(Masonry), everywhere (here where i am too). I would have to reconsider the entire story. However, confusion is not the same as intentional deceit. This is where our opinions differ. I suspect the former, you the latter. This OP has shown signs of confusion, which IMHO is more believable than an outright fabrication.

I gave my reasons earlier in the thread. The time-line is much too short for this to have happened in the proper manner. By his own addmission he had not even been initiated in March.

This is an acceptable objection. Not conclusive, mind.

He never read Emsed's U2U on who to contact so I doubt he even was investigated by his prospective lodge.

Is it possible he contacted a lodge seperately?

You most certainly can ask these questions, this is nothing secret or covert.

Au contraire.

I think I have been rather forthright in my opinions and with answering questions. If you feel I have not answered you fully please let me know and I will elaborate as much as possible.

Thank you.

My lack of curiosity stems from the fact that this 'group' really looks like a psuedo-Masonic group to me. Their missions statement, for lack of a better phrase, is so counter to what I feel Masonry is about that I doubt their relation to any mainstream Masonic orginization. So I feel that they do not speak for Masonry as a whole but only for themselves. Their opinion, to me, is worthless.

This group looks like a pseudo-something, for sure. But the existance alone confirms a premise of the OP, that esoteric people, calling themselves mason-templars were in town. His events happened several days after the 17th, the 19th by my guesstimate.

Again, either he's lying or he isn't. I cannot judge this story in the same way that you do. I can merely present myself as someone with nothing but this thread to go on.

I agree. I have attempted to moderate my stance and await further information.

Agreed. I however, am a curious bugger. 19th April in a small ancient roman town, replete with well known celebrities, occult significance, and freaked out translaters? If these questions don't poke your curiosity, you're on the wrong forum, friend.

reply to post by network dude


You're the good example, thank you. Agreed on the confusion.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I get beer.

Just for that, I am going to start a new batch of porter this afternoon and the tell you all about how good it is. I may even take a picture of a poured glass full, then empty. HA! then we will see who has the last laugh.

that is until you go to a lodge meeting. //head down, starts kicking rocks in the corner//

reply to post by VinnyboyXI

Well, you've really told us nothing. You haven't given us any plans, any truths, or any information for us to glean anything from.

I could literally say the same thing, but, about a different organization.

For instance:
I attended a mass at a Roman Catholic Church connected to the Vatican. The people were very weird and it appeared as if they were engaging in a Satanic ritual that the church calls..."Communion." You know, the drinking of blood and eating of flesh. I've heard many stories and have researched this particular religion and from everything that I know, these people are downright evil.

Now...do you see a problem with my example???

If so, you might want to delve into a few more specifics.


There's good and evil in every organization. Don't forget that.


[edit on 23-4-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by harryhaller
If any man is found lying, his credibility decreases, here (ATS), there(Masonry), everywhere (here where i am too). I would have to reconsider the entire story. However, confusion is not the same as intentional deceit. This is where our opinions differ. I suspect the former, you the latter. This OP has shown signs of confusion, which IMHO is more believable than an outright fabrication.

I acutally think it may be a bit of both but I await further information.

This is an acceptable objection. Not conclusive, mind.

It would not be conclusive for me either until someone verified the information I detailed so we are both in the same boat here.

Is it possible he contacted a lodge seperately?

Most certainly. But then this points the timeline aspect into an area where he would not have been able to become a Mason prior to his departure (even using the latest date available) to Italy. There frankly would not have been enough time to petition, get investigated and wait the mandatory period to be cleared for voting.

Au contraire.

There is nothing secret about what I offered. I can answer all questions, the only ones I will not answer have to do with certain portions of the ritual and modes of recognition.

Thank you.

My pleasure.

This group looks like a pseudo-something, for sure. But the existance alone confirms a premise of the OP, that esoteric people, calling themselves mason-templars were in town. His events happened several days after the 17th, the 19th by my guesstimate.

I do not disagree that something occured there. I am not sure what exactly took place.

Again, either he's lying or he isn't. I cannot judge this story in the same way that you do. I can merely present myself as someone with nothing but this thread to go on.

I am not judging the whole story, only a certain portion of it. Vinny may very well be a jeweler from Chicago on a trip to Italy who fell in with some pseudo-Masons (my opnion here on the psuedo- aspect) and reported the same. I am calling into question his Masonic affiliation at this time as it seems suspect to me and others.

Agreed. I however, am a curious bugger. 19th April in a small ancient roman town, replete with well known celebrities, occult significance, and freaked out translaters? If these questions don't poke your curiosity, you're on the wrong forum, friend.

I too am curious. But as I mentioned earlier, the only one who had acess to what occured chose not to share that with everyone.

reply to post by network dude

To my brethren on this site: Please don't take anything I said here personally, had I not been involved first hand, I may have been in the same frame of mind.

No harm, no foul. Someone had to try to set this guy straight.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

He logged-on yesterday. If he was inclined to clarify the holes in his story, he could have. Given that this thread apparently made it onto the front page of ATS (and that it's been at the top of the SS forum), I sincerely doubt that he's "unaware".

I just want to point out that in the time zone that the OP says he posted from, it would already have been 4/22 when he logged off of ATS the night he first posted this thread. I'm pretty sure the 'last login' datestamps in our profiles are based on the time zone we're posting from, because I know that I've seen people whose last login date was tomorrow for me.

Perhaps you actually saw the "member is online now" tag, in which case there'd be evidence that he has been logged in. Without that, the 4/22 date in his profile could even be evidence supporting his not having logged in since posting this thread and making the first few replies, has not seen the challenges posted early in the thread, and is in for a heck of a surprise when he returns home and checks in!

i need some answers. i don't care how you get them to me, but i'm way down the road of research and data on subjects relating to the "nature of things." for example:


1. does this data imply how things function on the planet, masonically:

DEUTERONOMY 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. 8 When the Most High divided the nations, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. 9 And His people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of His inheritance. (Brenton's LXX)

Is there a "divine council of 70" (or more) in masonic beliefs? who heads up this council in each religious division: is it the gods to which the people give tribute or believe, or to the masonic brother who has the highest masonic ranking in that belief system?


2. why do all these old secret fraternal organizations seem to be so sensitive to the concept of women directly attending their lodges? even mormonism has a problem with letting women in on the big secrets of mormonism, reserving the data for men only. is this somehow related to how women fit into the BIG PICTURE? are we ladies simply "cows" as described in talmud? or an after thought of god, as if our lives had no purpose beyond that of making the men in our lives as comfortable and blissfully happy as possible (correct me if i'm wrong, but is that like institutionalized slavery? )? ARE THERE WOMEN IN HEAVEN?

Originally posted by VinnyboyXI

I am writing this because I want you people to know that there is something bigger that we can even imagine behind the scenes of the Freemason. They are everything and everywhere. And those conspiracies you may have come across, most true

To the Masons on this site and through out the United States, don't chew me out because you are a Mason and you believe this is bull... This is real, I didn't believe it before and I sure as hell don't want to believe it now.

The Masons are the continuation of the Knights Templar. Do not argue with me there because the meeting was called "Meeting of the Knights Templar"
I learned there history in nearly 48 hours.

If you don't believe me that is perfectly fine. But, these past few days has completely changed my life

Ok Vinnyboy, I'm prepared to give credit to your testimony, as if it,s for real, this is very interesting stuff. But most ATSers are not really interested about "believing" or "not believing" claims. Like me, many seem to be rather about PROVING conspiracy theories, or just gathering clues or evidences that leads to support these, like the whole 9/11 plot thing.

So...

IF were you have figured out the hidden history of the Knights Templars ,as well as their connection to the Freemasons, in less than 48 hours, through your exchanges with these people from TPTB, then why wouldn't you make us an exposé about it right here? Is it because you lack the imagination to make out big stories? Just move forward and reveal your info! This is why this forum is here for...

Could you also substantiate a bit more about what topics were discussed, what were this power elite was standing for... did they had any dark plans or anything? How were they related to each other? Did they looked like they were casual buddies, members of a "clan" or something?

If your goal was to troll around to get ATS points, then perhaps this was a good tactic, but surely not for the long term.


thanks for your time and energy, if you are for real.


[edit on 23/4/10 by Echtelion]: Woa! I can't believe there are 29 pages yet of replies and the OP still didn't gave much more substancial details... or did he?

[edit on 23/4/10 by Echtelion]

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
if what he is saying is true, and that PDF file is true i am all for it. Religion has no place on Earth. Look at how the Christians and Catholics hate the jews, look at how the Muslims hate the Christians. Look at how we don't help the Africans because they do not have a religion worthy of "your" religion. It all has to stop and we need to make this world safe for everyone.

The loose manner in which you use the term "religion" should not be blurred with the concepts and ideals that have fathered some of these groups. If your definition of religion embodies a manmade entity or organization which adheres to a particular set of traditional beliefs or practices (i.e. Freemasonry, Roman Catholicism, etc), I couldn't agree more. Man has a way of inevitable corruption.

However...

To say that "Christians and Catholics hate jews", or that "Muslims hate Christians" is a terrible oversight playing on some dubious stereotypes. The fact of the matter is, every man falls short. If you see a man that parades the name of his religion as your defining factor of the ideals behind that religion, you will be greatly disappointed. My advice to you would be something along the lines of "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." I believe in the Christian ideals taught in the Holy Bible, but am firmly convinced that following Jesus Christ has nothing to do with religion (as held by the common definition)...it has more to do with the way in which I live my life.

To the topic at hand...don't be deceived by the all-inclusive religious tolerance that the Freemasons allegedly practice. There is a reason that the only requirement for the new initiated is that one believe in "a" Supreme Being." Sure, they'll let you make your oaths on whichever book you deem holy, but the reality is, as you climb the proverbial masonic ladder you will find yourself gradually, and possibly even unknowingly surrendering your personal beliefs to their Luciferian system through a process of rituals and oaths. Not only until it's too late will you discover that the "Supreme Being" they hold in such esteem is not the God you once followed, but none other than the Great Dragon of the Bible, Satan himself (he hates that title, and much prefers Lucifer the morning star).

You have been warned. Proceed with your own discretion.

Originally posted by VinnyboyXI
reply to post by Diplomat

 

if i am wasting your time, dont read it... move on. It was an experience I wanted to share and I figured you guys would be the only ones interested

its a freaking story i wanted to share with you guys

[edit on 21-4-2010 by VinnyboyXI]

Don't read WHAT? Where is your "freaking story", Vinny? That you met some people of the upper elite in some business trip to Italy, figured out their links and this freaked you out? Any sixth-grader can say the same.

One word: TROLL.

To moderators: please send this thread to the appropriate trash bin.

reply to post by Afewloosescrews


i'm concerned that it may turn out a bit like this:



surprised to find out the most evil entity in the universe, that you are personally aware of, is in fact the creator of your flesh body. who has gone to bat for mankind more than once, cause we were his creation and he is now responsible for our mistakes (compare yeshua). and that somewhere, a long time ago, somebody got the whole thing mixed up. you realize the word satan doesn't even appear in the biblical texts till the time of king david? and that the word "seraph", which is singular for seraphim (race of angels), also means serpent? there's a whole race of serpent angels, some of which guard the throne of god? it's in the book!

the old testament, although a bit rough around the edges, and often depressing and/or scary, is loaded with information.

so where along the line did the "Great red dragon" end up being the only seraphim to which is affixed the title seraph? methinks someone removed important info and this will be the end times delusion, that if it were possible, would fool even the elect: a tampered with biblical text, and lazy christians who just rely on what the preacher/priest/pope tells them, rather than going to god personally in prayer for answers. so much for the indwelling of the spirit! he may be present and accounted for, but we ignore him on a regular basis.

reply to post by Afewloosescrews

and possibly even unknowingly surrendering your personal beliefs to their Luciferian system

I was a Deist when I joined.. I'm a Deist today. I don't recall a single time in which I worshiped ANY God what so ever let only one styled as "Lucifer" ..

Do explain specifically what is the "Luciferian" system .. and which ritual, specifically, is worshiping Lucifer?

reply to post by undo

Originally posted by undo

surprised to find out the most evil entity in the universe, that you are personally aware of, is in fact the creator of your flesh body. who has gone to bat for mankind more than once, cause we were his creation and he is now responsible for our mistakes (compare yeshua). and that somewhere, a long time ago, somebody got the whole thing mixed up.

Eh...it appears that more than just "somebody" is a bit mixed up.

As your entire post was painfully littered with seemingly unrelated fragments and for the most part lacked a fluid or understandable stream of thought, I am not able to provide an in-depth response to all of your statements. However, I will attempt to speak to some of what you have proposed.

Originally posted by undo
you realize the word satan doesn't even appear in the biblical texts till the time of king david?

No, I didn't realize that. Actually the Hebrew word "satan" appears many places in the old testament including the first chapter of Job (which some think to be the oldest book in the Bible). Carry on.

Originally posted by undo
and that the word "seraph", which is singular for seraphim (race of angels), also means serpent? there's a whole race of serpent angels, some of which guard the throne of god? it's in the book!

Although I don't quite understand the relevance of this statement, nor can I find any evidence to substantiate that seraph means serpent, Lucifer was was a cherubim (which is most likely synonymous with seraphim). Even so, wouldn't it only make sense that although fallen, Lucifer would have the same physical form as the race of angels he had defected from?

Originally posted by undo
so where along the line did the "Great red dragon" end up being the only seraphim to which is affixed the title seraph?

Nowhere in the Bible can I find the term seraph affixed to Satan, but if you are making reference to the fact that Satan is also called a serpent or "that serpent of old," you are correct. The devil is symbolically depicted throughout the Bible as a serpent or a dragon. Again, I can't find the connection between the terms seraphim and serpent anywhere...and even if I could, I'm not sure what that would do to help your argument. To be honest, I'm not even quite sure what your argument is.

Originally posted by undo
methinks someone removed important info and this will be the end times delusion, that if it were possible, would fool even the elect: a tampered with biblical text, and lazy christians who just rely on what the preacher/priest/pope tells them, rather than going to god personally in prayer for answers.

so much for the indwelling of the spirit! he may be present and accounted for, but we ignore him on a regular basis.

Interestingly enough, I don't have a preacher/priest/pope to reveal truth to me. I've spent some time studying scripture, while asking the Lord for discernment, and He has very graciously given me an understanding of the crystal clear message that is readily available to all that seek Him. I assure you, the end times delusion spoken of will be perpetrated by the "Great Deceiver" himself. Hopefully by then you will have seen him for who he truly is.

Dock9, well today was the Annual Grand Conclave of the Grand Commandery, Knights Templar, of Idaho. I didn't have any speaking parts today so I had time to sit and think. I looked around at the various Sir Knights in attendance. At lunch I sat down with the General Grand King, Royal Arch Masons International and chatted with him about his travels around the world. I sit here and compare, they took me in as a Brother, Excellent Companion, and Sir Knight and I have never felt any wrong nor have I felt like I was being treated improperly. I then see you mocking and accusing a group of men, of which you may only know a few. All I've ever seen in the Freemasons (Blue Lodge, OES, IOJD, and York Rite) is good people coming together for the betterment of themselves and through them the community.

All I've seen from the people who claim to be "good" is baseless and outrageous accusations. Vicious hostilities that detract from any civil discussion is the way of some of the conspiracy theorists. You can call me and my fraternity every type of filth under the sun, but those who know Freemasons know them to be good and true, and the luster of Freemasonry will never, never dim.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I'm glad you appreciate it. I respond to people how they address me. You give hostility, I give it. You are civil, I am civil.

Can you prove that Freemasonry has stolen anything? Our charity is funded through private donations and some fundraisers. We steal nothing. Can you prove any wrongdoing on the part of the Fraternity? Anything concrete?

While many of meetings are private, we hold many events where our wives can attend and we also strive to keep the women involved.

You never answered me nor my other posts about my credentials as a Mason. Would you like pictures? I have no problem posting some pictures.

reply to post by Dock9

As I don't puff myself up above my rank, I don't get where you think I am mattress stuffing. You honestly don't have a real idea about how Freemasonry is structured. I mean the internet tells you the general structure. Its not rocket science.

Please prove to us that Freemasonry is a criminal enterprise, otherwise you are just lying. You sure do have a fantastic imagination, a demented one nonetheless. And the only obscene thing here is your baseless accusations.

And no one threatened anyone. All that was said is that there are holes in the OPs story and his said membership. Are we not allowed to question someone? Or do we just let some imposter come in and slander our good name? I for one am not going to take it on the chin.

reply to post by PuterMan

The timeline of him getting initiated is questionable as it takes time from just reading a petition, to balloting on it, to getting a date set to initiate. Plus, like I said, if he had indeed gone to a meeting of the Masonic Knights Templar (which Italy has a Grand Commandery under the jurisdiction of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar, USA. To attend one of these meetings you must be a Master Mason which by his own timeline (previous threads and his OP) there is no way he could have attended.

Originally posted by undo
i need some answers. i don't care how you get them to me, but i'm way down the road of research and data on subjects relating to the "nature of things."

is this somehow related to how women fit into the BIG PICTURE? are we ladies simply "cows" as described in talmud?

Well, I'm not a member of a group and I don't read the talmud so this me in stand alone mode. You can see my avatar. I would never describe ladies as "simply cows". "Really hot fabulous sexy brainy cows", well yes.

I know, I'm just spreadin' the BS. I couldn't let the opening go by. I was perplexed, on the "horns" of a dilemma. It's getting deeper isn't it? I'll stop while I'm a "head". Head of cattle that is. OK... I've run out of stupidity......
I'll moooove along now.

Sorry undo. Just kidding, nothing personal. You and all women would get an invite if I ran a club. There would be no bovines. Just peeps. Wow, I almost said chicks! Here we go again........

reply to post by Afewloosescrews


that's where study comes in handy! which is what i was talking about in the first place
strongs concordance
hebrew:

Result of search for "seraph":
8314 saraph saw-rawf' from 8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.

www.eliyah.com...

www.blueletterbible.org...

Originally posted by Rockpuck

I was a Deist when I joined.. I'm a Deist today. I don't recall a single time in which I worshiped ANY God what so ever let only one styled as "Lucifer" ..

Then I would say, continue following your path if it suits you. As a 32nd degree mason, you're bound to possess the "seething energies of Lucifer" which your brotherhood patriarchs have promised you soon. Just know that there will be a point of no return (if you haven't already reached it).

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Do explain specifically what is the "Luciferian" system .. and which ritual, specifically, is worshiping Lucifer?

You're the one who should have the answers to those questions...after all, I could never know the full extent of your "secret" dealings. If you are honestly seeking for answers to your questions (which I presume is not the case), all you would have to do is pick up a few books by your own beloved figureheads (Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, Madame Blavatsky, etc.) for ample evidence of the clear Luciferian philosophies which permeate Freemasonry.

reply to post by undo


Bravo...now could you please enlighten me with the relevance?

Jeez, he attended a local lodge as a guest and they proclaimed to be the 'Knights Templar'. Any local organisation could call themselves the Knights Templar if they wanted to... Doesn't mean that they are direct descendants of the fabled Knights Templar.

Then again they might be!? Don't flame the messenger.