Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

I'm a regular mason and a full member of York Rite in Washington State. There is no way a "regular" mason would be invited into a lodge higher than his degree. It's been shown that the OP would be hard pressed to be an Entered Apprentice (1st degree) let alone have the time in (at least a few months on top of the several months to get through the degrees in Blue Lodge) to have gained admittance to the Templar's Lodge (Commandery) in any country on the planet assuming we're still talking about regular free-masonry. So any valuable "secrets" he may have taken away from this "meeting" were nothing at all to do with Masonry or Knights Templar as we know them in the "regular" sense of those phrases.

And there's no way any "oath" he may have sworn would carry any weight or penalty of reprisal due to the preceding statement. He would have to carry the appropriate membership card to prove his association in whatever lodge he belongs to and would possibly have to respond to a short line of questioning in the proper manner to be admitted to a higher level lodge. Some of the responses can be found on line, but the membership cards are a little harder to forge.

And, I very strongly suspect that very few members of the visible U.S. government are "regular masons". I'd be completely floored if there are more than a half dozen in congress. I'd probably terminate my membership if I found that any are members of the upper echelons of the Executive Branch.

reply to post by Watermonkey


It’s entirely possible that he could have been invited. Rules first off are meant to be broken.

One rule that is hard to break is the Golden Rule, he who has the Gold gets to make the Rules!

In other words if someone in an influential enough position sees a reason to break those rules meant for people of no or little influence, then yes, rules go right out the window.

The belief that something can’t happen because of rules, is in fact rather foolish, considering what we see on Wall Street, in the Government, in Religions.

People in power in all kinds of organization break the rules of their organization everyday. People, who are governed by rules and laws, break them every day.

To suggest Masonry would be immune to this would belie the behavior of every other institution, and every other human being.

It’s never a good idea to say never in my book!

I live to break rules!

There is obviously some truth to Vincent's story!

If there wasn't, there wouldn't be so many people, trying in so many desperate and disparate ways, to state there couldn't be any truth to it.





[edit on 23/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Friend, there are some rules that don't get broken. Ever. Period.

Originally posted by Watermonkey
Friend, there are some rules that don't get broken. Ever. Period.

Thanks for confirming the OP is true

Second friggen line

I appreciate that you took the time to post something you felt of importance for the world to hear, however what I fail to understand is .. so what? what if they are associated with knights templar. My history reading of the templars is that they were an honourable society devoted to their causes... their names were besmirched by those wanting to take their money and influence.

I worked many many years ago now for the Freemasons... I found them to be incredibly noble honourable men devoted to the causes of charity and business intertwined with brotherhood as well as their little rituals and secrets. I think that being expected to keep secrets may be part of what makes them prove their worthiness (and not that the secrets are some big deal) The fact that they keep their secrets makes them rare in the world today. I am not a mason, have no family that are masons and no association with them, however the breed of men and women in this world that is actually honourable and noble is dying ... and dying fast..... they seem to me to be people of integrity who don't stoop to respond to all the silly rumours.

If you were invited to a society to become part of their membership and you are sharing their secrets with us ... it does not seem to me that you are worthy to be in their ranks ... perhaps you should find other societies that are more in keeping with your current beliefs.

I say again ... this shocking revelation to you that they are the knights templar .... so what is the big deal ... nice to know they didn't all die out when the french king had them all slaughtered....

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I agree with you post for the most part. I, for one, want to see Vinny explain himself further. I think his Masonic, affiliation, if any is relevant to the topic and he needs to demonstrate that he is indeed, as he claims, a Mason.

post by Raider of Truth

So you thought to tell ATS about it?
Breaking your bond?

post by AugustusMasonicus

Well Vinny from Chicago,

post by network dude

Vinnyboy is an EA as far as I know. He asked me for some help and I contacted EMSED1. From there I think he made the proper introductions. I have no reason to think Vinnyboy is anything other than truthful at this time. I wanted to make sure all the masons know they are most likely addressing a brother, not a crack pot.

post by network dude

Augustus may in fact be correct, but until EMSED1 checks in , I think Vinnyboy deserves the benefit of the doubt. I know it all sounds fantastic, but think about what initiate of P2 must have been told.

post by AugustusMasonicus

Oh, now it is 'you' Masons. And here we were thinking that you were one of those 'you Masons'.

post by AugustusMasonicus

So, from Thursday, March 11th, to Thursday, April 15th, he was investigated, cleared, voted upon and initiated, then had time for an intercontinetal flight to meet the Knights Templar in time for a world-shattering tell-all, which of course, he can not tell at all.

post by wordtothewise

First off, you obviously do not take SERIOUSLY your vows if you are at all a Freemason to be on here "reviling" fellow Freemasons as you claim to be.

I in fact hope for Vincent's sake he is not a Mason, for if he is, it won't be long before he is made to pay a price for this thread, if in fact, he is not paying one already.

See, through a series of carefully veiled intimidation, the truth is Vincent was scared right off this thread, because there are real penalties to be paid for a Mason betraying any secrets of the Order.

Not only is it clear, that there was a real concern that Vinnie is in fact a recently joined initiate and Mason, but who Vinnie is, because his Lodge Master would in fact know all about him, almost every important detail of his life.

One day some anonymous complaint causes him to loose his job at the Jewelry store, maybe some even turns up missing. A code inspector shows up at his house, a fence without the right permit, a shed without the right permit.

Another day blemishes show up on his credit report. There are lots of ways for people, spread out throughout the community in various businesses and low ranking government jobs, the courts etc., to teach Vincent a lesson, all just apparently coincidental, all apparently random.

The primary objective find out who Vincent is, then shut him up, then do everything to make sure no one can make hide nor tail out of his story, by offering up a hundred different possibilities on how Vincent might have been confused.

I can surely understand, why finding out if Vinnie is a Mason is so relevant!





[edit on 23/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Of interest, re; 'rules' and the uses to which Freemasonry is put:


Gelli joined a conventional Masonic Lodge in Nov. 1963. He rapidly rose to third degree membership, which made him eligible to lead a Lodge ---

What he in fact conceived was an illegal secret organisation. This group was given the name Raggruppamento Gelli -P2. The P stood for Propaganda, the name of an historic lodge of the 19th century.

Initially he brought into it retired senior members of the Armed Forces. Through them he obtained the entree to the active Service Heads. The web he spun was gradually to cover the entire power structure of Italy. the ideals and aspiractions of genuine Freemasonry were rapidly abandoned, though not officially. Gelli's aim was somewhat different: extreme right-wing control of Italy. Such control would function as a secret state within a state, unless the unthinkable happened and the Communists were elected to power. If that happened then there would be a coup. The right wing would take over. Gelli was confident that the Western Powers would accept the situation. Indeed, from the early formation of P2, he had the active support and encouragement of the CIA operating in Italy

It may sound like the scenario of a madman, doomed to the fate of all such schemes, but it should be noted that within the membership of P2 in Italy alone (there were, and still are, powerful branches in other countries) were the Armed Forces Commander, the Secret Service Chiefs Generals, the Head of Italy's Financial Police, Cabinet Ministers and politicians of every political shade (except the Communists), 30 generals, 8 admirals, newspaper editors, television executives, top industrialists, and bankers . Unlike conventional Freemasonry, the list of members of P2 was so secret that only Gelli knew all the names

Gelli used a variety of techniques to increase the power of P2. One of them was personal contact and introduction from an already existing member

Others were less tasteful. Blackmail was the most prevalent

When a 'target' joined P2, he was obliged to demonstrate loyalty by placing at Gelli's disposal documents that would compromise not only the new member but other possible targets

Confronted with the evidence of their misdeeds, the targets joined P2. This technique was used for example on the President of ENI, the State oil company, Giorgio Mazzanti. Shown the evidence of his own corruption concerning huge bribes and payoffs on a pending Saudi oil deal, Mazzanti caved in and joined P2, bringing to Gelli even more compromising information

Another technique Gelli used to seduce a new member was to ascertain from already corrupted sources the short-list of three on a top job. He would then telephone all three applicants and announce that he intended to fix it for them. Next day he would have one very grateful new member of P2

On the surface P2 was, and still is, a fanatical insurance policy against potential Communist governments. Excluding Italy there are still branches functioning in Argentina, Venezuela, Paraguay, Bolivia, France, Portugal and Nicaragua. Members are also active in Switzerland and the USA.

P2 interlocks with the Mafia in Italy, Cuba and the USA

It interlocks with a number of the military regimes of Latin America and with a variety of groups of neo-Fascists

It also interlocks very closely with the CIA.

It reaches right into the heart of the Vatican

The central common interest of all these elements is 'apparently' a hatred and fear of Communism

In fact, P2 is not a world conspiracy with the aim of preventing the spread of Marxism or its many variations

It is an international grouping wtih a number of diverse aims.

It combines an attitude of mind with a community of self-interest, its main goals being not the destruction of a particular idealogy but an insatiable greed for power and wealth, and the furtherance of self -- hiding behind the acceptable face of 'defenders of the free world'. In the world of P2, however, nothing is free. Everything has a price (as we know and as Proto recently pointed out)


excerpted from 'In God's Name'
David A. Yallop
Copyright 1984
ISBN: 0 552 12640 3


.





[edit on 23-4-2010 by Dock9]

Freemasonry and the Vatican

Bishop Paul Marcinkus -- also known as 'God's Banker'

' Chicago-born Marcinkus had learned about survival on the back-streets of Cicero, Illinois. During his meteoric rise to the position of 'God's Banker' he had survived many moments of crisis. Now he was confronted with the most serious he had ever faced. The 6'3", 16-stone extrovert had become moody and introspective. He was visibly losing weight and his face had acquired a grey pallor

Vatican City in many respects is a village and secrets are hard to keep in a village

World had reached Marcinkus that the new Pope had quietly begun his own personal investigation of the Vatican Bank and specifically into the methods Marcinkus was using to run that bank

Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Jean Villot was another who was still at his desk on that September evening. He studied the list of appointments, resignations to be asked for and transfers which the Pope had handed to him one hour previously

It was by any standards a dramatic reshuffle. It would set the Church in new directions; directions which Villot, and the others on the list who were about to be replaced, considered highly dangerous

When these changes were announced there would be millions of words wirtten and uttered by the world's media, analyzing, dissecting, prophesying, explaining

The real explanation, however, would not be discussed, would not be given a public airing -- there was one common denominator, one fact that linked each of the men about to be replaced --- It was Freemasonry

The evidence the Pope had acquired indicated that within the Vatican City State there were over 100 Masons, ranging from Cardinals to priests. This despite the fact that Canon Law stated that to be a Freemason ensured automatic ex-communication

The Pope was further pre-occupied with an illegal Masonic lodge which had penetrated far beyond Italy in its search for wealth and power. It called itself P2

The fact that P2 had penetrated the Vatican walls and formed masonic links with priests, bishops and even Cardials made P2 anathema to the Pope (Alibino Luciani)

Excerpted from 'In God's Name'
by David A. Yallop




Albino Luciani had been elected Pope on August 26th, 1978

He was modest and humble and had not sought the office

Immediately, however, he commenced on a series of sweeping changes, including eradicating corruption, massive theft and Freemasonry from the Vatican and Roman Catholic life generally

He stated his intention to permit modern forms of birth-control

33 days later, Pope Albino Luciani was dead





.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Dock9]

I NEED to know what is going to happen to women in the masonic timeline? I NEED to know if God cares one iota about me, as a female human, according to freemasonry.

Someone needs to tell me, pronto. HELLO?

reply to post by undo


I love the ladies.. and so does Masonry. Seriously, Freemasonry doesn't have anything against the ladies.. it's just that it's a Fraternity.. you know, a boys club where boys can be boys lol. As a Human, or person, you're no different than anyone else!

This is to the Masons that consider themselves to be CHRISTIANS.

You are violating two serious commands of the New Testament Bible. You know, that book that instructs CHRISTIANS how to live?

1.) You have joined an organization that was originated by a Satanist named Albert Pike.
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils - 1 Cor. 10:20 KJV

2.) Many of your “Masonic Brothers” are infidels.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you - 2 Cor. 6:14-17 KJV

The Templars and the Baphomet (Sacred Severed Head)



' Within a short time of the Templars achieving prominence in medieval western society, the order reverted to conducting its ceremonies in conditions of the greatest secrecy. Their receptions and chapters were held at night under tight security, with armed-sentries at the entrance and a guard high above on the roof

--- dark tales began to circulate, rumours of necromancy and strange practices

--- it was rumoured that the Templars worshipped heads

There is no doubt that a preserved, severed head was involved in Templar ritual, and that it was regarded great veneration and awe.

after their arrest, Tempar after Templar admitted to this reverence of the head, often while rejecting the wilder flights of fancy of the Dominican inquisitors, such as satanic worship of a cat

Several Templars, including Jean de Tour, the treasurer of the Paris temple, admitted 'adoring a a painted head in the form of a picture

Others confessed to seeing and being required to worship a 'representation' of a bearded head

One of the brothers, Jean Taillerfer, said at his reception that 'an idol representing a human face' was set before him, on the altar. It was 'about the natural size of a man's head, with a very fierce-looking face and beard'.

Hughes de Bure testified that a head of a man with a long beard and apparently wrought in silver or gold was taken from the aumbry in the chapel.

Bartholomew Bochier had also seen a head with a long beard, but whether it was made of wood, metal, bone or was human, he could not tell

Descriptions of the head varied from one wich 'seemed to be white with a beard', to ' a foul and black idol'

Clearly, along with various representations, several actual heads were involved

However, one relic stood pre-eminent -- the long-haired, bearded head that was seen almost exclusively at the Paris temple

Many tales centred around the worship of this severed, embalmed head, a head whose name, as many Templars admitted after their arrest, was Baphomet

The derivation of this name has been the cause of some dispute, but it now seems clear that it is derived from the argot of the Spanish Moors, 'bufihimat', which is itself a corruption of an Arabic word, abufihamet. The translation of this word is Father of Wisdom

That the Baphomet was the object of the greatest veneration and was not normally seen by the 'rank and file' of the order, was confirmed by another Templar, Guilliame d'Arbley, a relative of Huges de Bure

Guilliame stated that, while copies of the 'idol' were fairly widely seen, the true object of veneration 'was exhibited at general chapters' implying it was only showen to senior members of the order on special occasions.

A leading researcher into the Turin Shroud, Ian Wilson, came to a similar conclusion about the Templar heads while studying the apparent burial cloth of Christ: 'Other descriptions, clearly referring to copies, included mention of gold and silver cases, wooden panels, and the like. But the Paris head is different. One gets the distinct impression that this was the holy of holies, accorded ceremonial strikingly reminiscent of that used by the Byzantines (to honour the embalmed heads of St. Peter and St. Paul) '

The contemporary descriptions of the 'Paris head', the Baphomet, all make plain that the head was not a copy or carving or any sort of 'graven image'. It was a real embalmed, severed head. Brother Raoul de Gizy's testimony is typical:

Inquisitor: Now tell us about the Head

Far.Raoul: Well, the Head. I've seen it at seven chapters held by Brother Huges de Piraud and others

Inquisitor: What did one do to worship it ?

Fra. Raoul: Well, it was like this. It was presented and everyone threw himself on the ground, pushed back his cowl, and worshipped it

Inquisitor: What was its face like ?

Fra. Raoul: Terrible. It seemed to me that it was the face of a demon, of a maufe (an evil spirit). Every time I saw it I was filled with such terror I could scarcely look, trembling in all my members

Under further questioning, Raoul de Gizy stated that he had seen the idol of seven separate occasions, several of which had been held by Hugues de Piraud, who was Visitor of France, a post which made him the virtual overlord of all the Templar houses, at least in Europe

Piraud was outranked only the Grand Master, Jacques de molay. This made him a very big fish indeed, and he was soon brought to the question.

His testimony was dynamite: Piraud aknowledged the existence of the head and, questioned by the Dominican inquisitor Nicholas d'Ennezat, agreed that he (Piraud) --- 'had seen, held and stroked it at Montpellier, in a certain Chapter, and that he and other brothers present had adored it (the Head) with the mouth ... and not with the heart; however, he (Piraud) did not know if other brothers had worshipped it with the heart. Asked where it was, he (Piraud) said he sent it to Pierre Alemandin. Preceptor of Montpellier, but did not know if the King's people had found it '


Eteienne de Troyes' testimony corroborated that of Raoul de Gizy, and again implicated the second in command of the order, Hugues de Piraud. Within a year of being received into the order, he (de Troyes) attended a ritual in Paris:

" ... and they began to hold the first vigil of the night, and they continued until prime (6.00 a. m.) and at the prime of the night they brought a head, a priest carrying it, preceded by two brothers with two large wax candles upon a silver candelabra, and he (the priest) put it upon the altar upon two cushions on a certain tapestry of silk, and the head was, as it seemed to him, flesh from the crown to the shaped of the neck with the hairs of a dog without any gold or silver covering, indeed a face of flesh and it seemed to him very bluish in colour and stained, with a beard having a mixture of white and black hairs similar to the beards of some Templars. And then the Visitor (Hugues de Piraud) stood up, saying to all, " We must proceed, adore it and make homage to it, which helps us and does not abandon us ". And then all went with great reverence and made homage to it and adored that head "

Of equal interest was the obvious mystery school nature of the Templars. Many occult matters, including the denial of Christ and the Cross, were apparently part of the inception process, but the existence of the Head was known as a secret only by the higher grades of Templar initiation, and the younger brothers were not permitted to view it

Etienne de Troyes seems to have been the exception to this rule (he had been inducted into the order less than a year before); however, he was told that the head was that of Hugues de Payens, which is obviously an explanation given to those of the lower grades of initiation to satisfy them until the true nature of the head was revealed when, and if, the recruit had proved himself worthy of entering the inner mysteries of the order.

The depositions of the Templar witnesses can be seen to divide into three separate types. There are those who saw only a representation of a head, those who saw other embalmed heads, and those who were privy to the holy of holies, the mysterious severed head known as Baphomet

The lower grades saw only representations of the head, copies and paintings, such as the long-haired, bearded face painted on a board that can still be viewed at Templescombe in Gloucestershire. Those who had progressed further, or who showed natural aptitude, were allowed to participate in rituals that included severed heads other than Baphomet, whilst it seems that most holy relic was normally reserved for the highest grades of initiation

It is of great interest that almost all the brothers confirm a description of the head as having both a long beard and long hair.

As Neol Currer-Briggs has pointed out, ' ... The Templars, like the majority of their contemporaries, regarded long hair as effeminate, so the length of the idol's hair was remarkable for this, if for no other reason. This speaks for the head being a true, and ancient relic. Had it been a contemporary fake, one might reasonaly expect it to embody the Templar's own perceptions and values, and long hair would definitely not have been among the required attributes. Indeed, it's 'womanly' connotations would have been strenuously avoided by an order that eschewed all contact with the female sex. The fact that the idol has long hair reveals that it was not made by the Templars, but came into their possession by some unknown route. That such a discovery or gift was not rejected as 'unworthy' by the Templars, despite the effeminate length of its locks, points very strong to it having been important to the Templars beore it came into their possession. And given their position as warrior monks of Christ, it is reasonable to supose that his importance must have been primarily connected with Jesus.

Once again, the long hair supplies the clue: one is immediately reminded of the Sampsaei and the Naziraei, whose locks were never touched by razor, for whom the hair was sacred and untouchable, and who revered and followed the ancient teachings of Akhenaten/Moses.

And as we have seen, Jesus was most certainly a member of this cult. He was very probably its leader at the time of his death when, as the Continuation records, a head of Jesus was in the hands of one of the two men who had been with the body in its tomb

This head, the head of Christ, would have been that of a man with long hair and long beard --- exactly as the Baphomet is described

The evidence suggested that the Templars most holy relic -- Baphomet, The Father of Wisdom -- was none other than the severed head of Jesus - the head of God


Excerpted from:
The Head of God
Keith Laidler
(c) 1998
ISBN:0 75282 689 1



.



[edit on 24-4-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by Afewloosescrews


it's rather a long winded explanation. better to just read some of my other threads. if you want to read one that i think better defines what i'm trying to say, u2u me and i'll link ya. don't want to use vinny's forum here, for advertising my own thread.

reply to post by Rockpuck


uh if i'm no different, why am i different?
is this a logic puzzle too?

reply to post by Dock9


odd. why would christ's head be severed? no mention is made of christ's head ever being removed from his body, in any text of the time when he actually was physically present on the planet, nor any text following his sojourn here, that is, until this whole templar thing. what is the affiliation of the inquisitor in the quotes?

reply to post by undo


How are you different? In what way, aside from exclusion? .. It's a Fraternity, Fraternity meaning Men. The difference comes down to penises and vagina's if you want to be real technical. No vagina's allowed. You, as a person, are thought of no less.. you just happen to not be a man. Sorry.

reply to post by Rockpuck


so is there exclusion in heaven? are women excluded from heaven? why are there no depictions of female angels? why is there no MENTION of female angels? why are the gods all men, with the exception of the whole inana/isis/astoreth thing, which is characterized in just about every abrahamic belief system as intrinsically evil and attached to sorcery?

why is there no female representative in the godhead ? who's idea was it to isolate women into a separate category regarding the divine and to furthermore, create secret orders depicting the pinnacle of wisdom and knowledge, in which women are not allowed membership? i don't buy the whole -- it's a penis thing. it's not. having a penis has nothing to do with heaven (although this would of course depend on whether you mean the starry firmament/obelisk thing vs. the heavenly abode).

you could say, well there are lodges for women now. BUT THERE WASN'T FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS! so clearly, for thousands of years, women were not allowed divine knowledge? who's idea was that? just what in the sam hill is going on?



[edit on 24-4-2010 by undo]

reply to post by Dock9


No sorry I don`t believe that for a second.

Now John The Baptist? thats something else.

Pick a link

Back to this particular thread,After thirty odd pages I gotta say it was extremely entertaining.

Great job by Proto,Dock9,MuzzleFlash and getsmart to name only those off the tip of my tongue.

There are a few things I wanted to address posted by a particular Mason here, though it might of been seen as a derail.

This thread has in many peoples eye`s given credibility to the OP by the Masons behavior etc as many have said,I also came to that conclusion about 6 years ago in another thread, here ,Dock9 you may want to run your eye over that thread as much as you have here if the Masons behavior exposes their affiliation etc type thinking.It should be quite easy for you to spot the Masons on it,their the ones mostly attacking the OP.

I personally believe that Masons and co do influence world affairs (pushing for NWO OWR) with things like the child CHIP program the Masons brought out a few years ago,even though I know it has nothing to do directly with RFID though its a way to slowly associate people to it.

Anyway hate to be seen as going to far off topic so.....

COME BACK VINNY!!!.












[edit on 24-4-2010 by gps777]

i thought the knights templers were wiped out by greedy english kings. i also thought knight templers were defenders of the faith. the army of God on earth. their secrets are knowledge of God. knowledge that forces you to choose sides. the truth is in plain sight, it's not hidden. the only problem is people. you can't be sure if you are being decieved. you can't be sure if they have been corrupted. only their actions can give you a clue.

reply to post by Dock9

i like your library

Is is possible that vinny attended a p2 meeting? An "inititate" from the US who could act as a translator is possible, especially considering the air chaos at the time. Everyone in Europe was trying to get via Rome elsewhere. Strong argument for bending the rules.

Obviously the thought that he would immediately jump onto an internet forum would simply not have occured to them. People just don't DO that, around them.

Considering the obvious devious from the norm practiced by p2, and presumably others, why are the US lodges so adamant on professing their collective virtue? More so, why are they so intent on keeping brotherhood, with these others? There is most certainly a hidden history within freemasonry, the word "hidden" assumes that even other masons do not know either? Are they this content to deny ignorance? Apparently. Don't ask questions and keep your head? (and social standing)?

I still find it curious that a large delegation of international initiate societies was in that region at that time. This "pinky" has many ties to both "templar" and "freemason" history, including quite a large part of egyptology, and the Holy Grail. With ties to Rosslyn, I doubt any keeper of the chapel would be happy about anyone spreading falsehoods, he must have some legitimacy? A correct understanding and representation? How do we ascertain if the gnostic crowd are just internet coocs, or if indeed, that's the real deal right there? Where the real power hangs out?

A World Wide Roman Shadow Government [1], with A Five-Point Plan to Create a One-World Spirituality [2] At this time??? [3]

April 17th, the advertised day of the conference, i imagine would be the introduction. Any and all. Then the party just keeps getting better.

Not that this is what Vinny saw, but certainly this sort of thing was going on somewhere in the world. In Italy, ancient roman hidden places? With very bad, very powerful people?

April 19 - 25 Sacrifice preparation: kidnapping, holding and ceremonial preparation of person for human sacrifice.
April 25 - The Da Muer ritual: Grand climax. Sex rituals and sacrifice of a woman or young girl.
April 30 - Walpurgis night/Beltane: One of the most important nights on the satanic calendar. Blood rituals and human sacrifice take place.

We are talking about the guys who HAVE the power here, how did they get it? How do they keep it?

[1] www.abovetopsecret.com... =reply&fid=20&tid=563708&pg=30&pid=8642991

[2] www.gnostictemplars.org...

[3] www.abovetopsecret.com...