Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

reply to post by KSigMason

What are our incriminating spots? I didn't realize that charity was incrimination? I didn't realize striving to better yourself before God and man was incrimination?

We don't do sausage-sizzles in the park. We have held breakfast fundraisers and dinner fundraisers, but most of the time it comes from private donations. And the medical research the York Rite has helped fund has already better man and will continue to do so. You can name-call all you want, but the actions of Freemasonry will endure to show that it stands for goodness.

First, I appreciate the belated attempts to take a kinder gentler approach, you will have to forgive those who might see this as potentially just being yet another game, this time called good cop bad cop!

I think we could all use a respite from some of the acrimony and rancor that has marred this thread from the beginning.

Yet it should be noted, where charity is concerned, that Al Capone, the Famous Chicago Gangster was generous to the extreme, bankrolling the bulk of Chicago’s Soup Kitchens during the onset of the Great Depression, up until the time he was convicted for Income Tax Evasion and sent off to the Federal Penitentiary in Atlanta.

As a Catholic he was also quite generous towards the church.

Being charitable, philanthropic and religious, does not in and of it self neither eliminates nor preclude more unseemly acts as the examples above so aptly demonstrate.

Carlos Escobar the famed Columbian Cocaine Kingpin was known as St. Carlos to many of Medellin’s poor, whom he also fed, as well as sponsoring their Soccer Team, and paying for the Medellin Sports Stadium, yet his murderous rampages are legendary.

As a former President of a Chapter of the International 20/30 Club, I too have some experience with charitable fund raising, and philanthropy, and while most of the men in the club, were genuinely good natured, and relatively decent, we were all there primarily to network, for political and business purposes, and for many it was a perfect excuse to leave the wives at home, and enjoy some things, that their wives and families might frown upon, while fundraising and networking.

Yet honestly some might ask, and rightfully so, where has this charitable nature been in regards to the Original Poster? Where has it been towards many of us posting intelligent questions and observations on the thread?

Must one be a cripple, or have some diagnosed learning defect, or be hospitalized to see the charitable nature of the Masons?

While our better actions, can atone somewhat on the karmic scales for our poorer ones, they do not excuse our poorer ones, especially for those who might consider a propensity to give in calculated ways upon occasion, excuses their poorer actions, prior or later.

Charity begins at home, and in this case the house is ATS, and the original poster, and many members have not been treated with consideration, respect, compassion, or charity of any kind, by the bulk of the Masons, or self proclaimed Masons on this thread.

Some food for thought, sanctimony aside, as I stated last night, most of the above, know what they were and are doing, and why, and so too do the bulk of the rest of us.

reply to post by KSigMason


For 'rude and hostile' see the Freemasons' remarks to the OP at the top of this thread. Will put 'rude and hostile' into perspective for you. Then you might try to remember it for the future


Then, let's stop the dance and get down to brass tacks

You're not honestly hoping to convince that you don't understand people's aversion to Freemasons, are you ? I don't believe for one moment that you don't understand it all, perfectly well. Too well


But let's pretend for a moment that you're really ignorant of the reasons Freemasonry is generally reviled:

Firstly, the rank and file Freemasons such as yourself are comparable to mattress-stuffing in the overall Freemasonic scheme and despite that you'd like to deny it, you're unable to, so we won't waste any more time there for the moment

Freemasons, as generally-perceived by the public, is a term applied to those who wield and enjoy unimaginable power and influence

They inherit their place within the Freemasonic heirarchy. At that level, they don't regard or refer to themselves as mere 'freemasons', which is simply one of several working titles for a many-tiered octopus or web --- organised crime --- which threads throughout the world

Some of the top-tier who inherit their place within that world-wide crime gang don't care for it that much and regard it (we'll call it Freemasonry here for convenience) as a servant. They use it as a curtain, as an iron-fist, as a lowly money-launderer, as a pimp and middle-man, etc. In other words, they attend top level functions when they can't avoid it, but otherwise, they like their Freemasonic-servant to do its job, unseen, unheard

Others within the top-tier gain their place at the highest level of world-wide organised-crime as one of the perks of office. So we're speaking here of 'world leaders', heads of 'prestigious organisations' such as WHO and UNICEF, etc. Some of them enjoy the novelty and perks and choose to take somewhat of a hands-on role, basically because their drug is power and unlimited power provides them orgasmic enjoyment. Generally, they like to attend top-level Freemasonic functions, etc. They get a kick from being surrounded by smiling monsters with the power to create problems for millions & make all problems disappear for the privileged minority

So they're up there. And down on street-level are the rank and file Freemasons who will never participate in the real-deal, other than in their dreams

But ... the rank and file Freemasons have their uses, of course. And in their own small way, many avail themselves of the perks that come with membership of a reviled secret society

Uses to which rank and file Freemasons are put by the Real Deal might include falsifying a DI charge against a brother's son or daughter. Or arranging for a witness to be silenced. The surreptitious delivery home of a drunken trophy-wife is just the sort of courtesy one might expect from a brother, as is the arranging for a persistent, 'unsuitable' suitor to a brother's young daughter to be 'vanished', sometimes permanently

Brothers know they can phone each other when the SHTF -- say when a brother has been found to be embezzling or is found with drugs in his possession or discovered in compromising situation with an underage child, etc.

For this reason, it was imperative the organised-crime gang recruit (sometimes using quite devious means, including blackmail and frame-ups) for members of the legal fraternity and law-enforcement, to become members. And the perks of course included the promise of mutual back-scratching. An insurance-policy, in other words, for all those SHTF situations that have a habit of cropping up in even the most well-organised lives

Well, who amongst us wouldn't like such an insurance-policy, huh ? Who wouldn't appreciate for a brother sheriff to render us immune when a cheating spouse was discovered floating dead in the bath or when a neighbour's house caught fire and this or that witness claimed we'd been seen running from the scene ?

Other brothers arrange for politicians to appear white as snow despite being discovered in any number of compromising situations. Still other brothers provide sexual partners for the elite and too bad those sexual partners are screaming and protesting as they're dragged into those private suites and may even end up departing the suite in dead condition

Some brothers drive vehicles, function as body-guards, personal-assistants, journalists, heads of police divisions, heads of local councils, heads of finance for organisations, States, nations. Nice little club. Everything's under control. Have no fear my brothers. No harm will come to you. I have your back. And you have mine -- remember ?

Handy to have a brother in the position to grant another brother the contract to supply an entire State or Healthy Dept. etc. for 20-years, negotiable. All that lovely money being trickled down through all those other brothers' waiting hands

And then of course, with that money, one brother buys a new vehicle from a fellow-brother's car-yard. The car-yard brother reciprocates by ordering house-cladding from his good brother. One brother's wife phones another brother, ' Hello ? Jim ? I'm trying to locate Martin ? Do you know where he is ? ' ---- ' Adele, lovely to hear from you. Still loooking as gorgeous as ever ? How are the kids ? Listen, I heard that Martin had problems on the freeway. How about I get in touch with him through Bill, and get him to ring you ? In the meantime, don't worry and stay gorgeous, ok ? concluding with trusted family-friend chuckle. Soon as the receiver's been replaced, Jim gets on the blower to Martin, who's enjoying some afternoon delight at a nearby motel: ' Marty .. Adele just called. She's looking for you. Yeah, yeah, of course I covered for you. But as soon as you can, phone her back, will you. In the meantime, brother --- enjoy, you lucky SOB '. chuckle, chuckle. Having brothers is great. You get to break all the rules without any of the consequences. Keep women out, though. They're unreliable. It's what comes from being mothers. they don't have the rquired ruthless, conscienceless streak, most of them. Yeah, we have to keep the women out. For their own protection. Just as we have to keep the workings of the brotherhood secret from the general community. They wouldn't understand.

And that's basically how it works, with all members of the organised-crime gang gaining from membership and with the rank and file happy with their little lot while the Big Players move national boundaries, instigate chipping of entire populations, engineer financial collapses, droughts, plagues, wars, factions

No wonder they have to threaten members with increasingly obscene punishments as they crawl up through the ranks

For the top tier, they occasionally arrange an obvious assassination and gruesome display of the body/bodies. At the lower levels, ever hungry for a bit of power, the lowest of all the ranks exercise their puny mucles by threatening an individual for blabbing in an open forum


And good-works ? Worship of conventional diety ?

Of course, lol. In fact, most within the lowest levels genuinely participate in these, in what they truly believe to be the true spirit of their brotherhood, which they will fight to the end to defend. And quite often, they're genuinely offended by the fact people don't trust what they trust, believe what they believe

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


ProtoplasmicTraveler: You are a man among men. Respect.

Masons: Your arguments are weak, your methods of response show your training, and your attitudes belie your true nature.

I cannot believe the slander propogated by these "good men" against any that question their "superior position"?? The arrogance!! Conceited, puffed up little ponces. Full of titles and knowledge and connections and secrets. Threatening insulting demeaning and demanding, yet unwilling to give a hair's breadth of leeway. I'm stunned actually. This is the best argument i've ever seen for avoiding these crafty-buggeries.

The masons i've known have all been honourable men. You ATS'ers have just ruined that reputation, thank you.

And with respect dear brothers, you are none to me. When we of the internet share truth, reason and compassion, (albeit with a truckload of cynism), and you DARE come here and insinuate "we" and "thee"? That your charitable works are done to be thrown in the face of the uniniated.

Very simply here's your little gauntlet, straight back at you, quit your men's clubs or quit pretending to be one of us, you know, simple folk. Your janus-faced backstabbing and jostling is not of us. We neither need, want nor admire it. It is what we here are trying to escape, expose, make extinct. Inviting us to partake in your secrets does not negate the fact that once we are assimilated, we will look just like you. Something that "we" find revolting. Calling it "fear" is nothing less than schooboy bullying. Pathetic.

And something said in an earlier post to the op:

You've either said to much, or not enough.

I think the same words apply to you.

By your actions statements and attitudes, you have declared yourselves the enemy of true brotherhood, reason, and compassion. BE GONE!


EDIT: to be a self policing grammar nazi ... i wanna be a grammar nazi when i grow up!! Well then my boy, become a mason!

[edit on 23-4-2010 by harryhaller]

My grandfather is a part of what you are slandering op, you are lying through your teeth or you were mislead by some people playing a practical joke on you.

I wish there was a way to "unstar" and "unflag" on ATS because of this libelous thread which misrepresents the will and testament of people like my grandfather who work for good and for their community.

My grandfather is a huge figure in his community because he is constantly working to improve everyone's lives, he even built the confessionals for his church. The man is literally a carpenter. To act like he is some psycho is just absolutely inane and insulting to his honorable name. He is the most honorable and kind (but just) person I have ever known and I am deeply offended by this thread.

I don't have any special knowledge of this sort of stuff other than that I know my grandfather and family are good people. I know you are lying from the character of my grandfather alone.

edited: I am not trying to insult anyone, I let the slander of an organization my grandfather is a part of equate to slander of my grandfather and said an insult I shouldn't have. I have since removed it. I stand by all that is said in this post.

The Freemasons / Shriners / Templars are not men of evil. There may be bad men, mercenaries, spies within their ranks, people who try to make it something it is not merely because it is mysterious.

My grandfather is a Carpenter, the legitimate kind (he is missing fingers). He is not some grand co-conspirator to world domination or any sort of evil plot. He would be the first to stand against any such thing and I assure you my grandfather is not in the lower echelons of the Templar.

Every public organization he's been a part of he's either been the president or vice president, he's politically involved in his town (for the better), he's someone who actually helped build infrastructure in his town rather than someone who was just all words.

He has a vested interest in his community and his family and if they were planning some evil thing he would stand against it immediately.

They are not. My grandfather is personal friends with the top mason in the state of South Dakota. My grandfather would know.

I am sure many of the people in this site claim to be "masons" and "templars" and "shriners" or to have received a rite. All of that can be faked.

Op, please don't slander an organization for notoriety purposes, please don't spread this kind of disinformation about good and honest people. It is disgusting and horrifies me to see it.

Also an interesting thing about my grandfather is he would never claim to be part of any 'club' or any sort and while he has done rites and rituals in his church he is very welcome there by all since he helped build part of it.

It is disgusting to see this kind of slander about the Knights and my grandfather.

My grandfather never even told me he was anything I had to find out through observation and third parties (other family members). My grandfather is not a braggart, a madman, or malicious. He is a man who cares for his community and does what he can to help it grow and succeed. He needs no title or social status to be who he is, and that is why I will be able to sleep tonight despite this slander.

[edit on 23-4-2010 by sremmos]

Originally posted by Young minded old soul
Their "god" is Lucifer? Come on... Do even the littlest amount of research and you can relate the morning star in their rituals to Venus, the goddess, or planet if you will!

I did notice the Masonic Star and the breasts of their Venus... but was surprised at the goatee.

Originally posted by Young minded old soul
This thread is coming unravelled... Total shame ignorance is no excuse for not learning to look for information! Now seems like peeps think secret and Satan are the same thing!

Did it get unraveled right when you thought you had it all stitched up ? Total shame ignorants won't learn to look for information right were you point them to. I don't know about the other peeps, but I think Satan is the baddie a bunch of sickos sacrifice children for, and I just happen to distinguish Secret as the artifice they use to hide this fact from us peeps.

Originally posted by Young minded old soul
Lol please the info is everywhere out there.

Oh, if the info is everywhere out there, what's the fun in secrecy if everyone knows ? Did you hide it in Easter Eggs ? Or tucked away in some special bookstore without a street entrance or a sign in front ? Been there, done that, and seen enough "info" to rot the healthiest of minds.

Originally posted by Young minded old soul
Go sit in a book store for while and read

Wow, next you'll be giving us the address of that extra special bookstore where you keep the items without ISBN numbers ? Did you find them at that old Alexandria 'bookstore' before calling the firemen ?


...No, not the the one in Alexandria in Virginia which happens to be Illuminati administrative headquarters. The real old one in Egypt, where secret society misdeeds were accomplished with equal good taste to protect us from such burdensome secrets.


A word to the wise: don't believe everything you read in books. Some of may be disingenuous... others yet may have even been written by devoted Freemasons - spontaneously or by command. But that won't be printed on the jacket. You need to know those secret words that say: buy me and help me, we're on the same team - against the "peeps".

Originally posted by sremmos
My grandfather is a part of what you are slandering op, you are lying through your teeth or you were mislead by some people playing a practical joke on you.

My grandfather was once too. He was never anything but a good man, as i'm sure is your grandfather.

But please equate your grandfather with the words and actions of these masons in this thread? I'm sure you couldn't. Whatever his intentions though, he is still bound by association to these members, and is (as shown earlier) legally guilty by association for any and all acts committed by these members, whether he was aware of them or not.

But then, you wantonly attack the OP, calling him a liar or a fool, without touching a single premise that he made? Surely any who believe in "justice" would give a man more than these.

Like it or not secrecy and Satan are bestest bumchums. Thats why no body who isnt a Freemason trusts one.
Another thing. Privacy and secrecy are two seperate things. Privacy is a personal thing, legitimate and utterly fair. Secrecy is hidden, furtive, malignant. If something is private then its a matter of personal honour that the matter remains so . If something is a secret, then it is often kept so to avoid problems, and if the truth causes you or your organisation problems, then you bloody well deserve all the problems you get.

Just a guess. I think that VinnyboyXI has been effectively silenced. I doubt we will hear from him again in this forum. Perhaps he is following this under a new ATS name but that is wishful thinking. If he were that intune with the hazards of the Internet and forums such as this one, he would have taken such precautions prior to posting this thread. Even if he had, the subject matter and his writing style would likely have tipped off the Masons on ATS as to who the poster was. These posts as well as his others here on ATS tell me this is a very naive young man, perhaps 25ish if that old. I assume he has grown up participating on the social interactive sites where whatever comes to mind, comes out. You know the story, Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, YouTube et al. He carried on here as if he were among friends. Those continuing to post to this thread know better. There are those that are "friendly" toward us and we toward them and they might be vast in number. And there are those that are our friends and they are typically precious and few throughout our entire lives.

The odds are that he had exchanged personal information (email and/or U2U) with Masonic members of ATS. I'm not implying anything sinister here. He was after all inquiring about Masonic membership prior to this thread as can be seen in his post history. I suspect he has been contacted, likely through email once again and instructed in the error of his ways and that's that. Damage control has been implemented. Just my opinion and it's not like I'm saying something that hasn't crossed every mind. I for one feel cheated but that is typically the payoff for many threads on ATS.

Originally posted by Hemisphere
Just a guess. I think that VinnyboyXI has been effectively silenced. I doubt we will hear from him again in this forum.

Agreed. But thanks to his boldness, and the blundering by the masons, we know something happened.

I'm still convinced it was the "19th of April thing", and i'm also convinced that it WAS a big deal, much bigger than a typical mason meet.

I'd be happy to know the sod was still alive.

Wow. I have been quietly following this thread since its inception and I must say...it's been quite the eye opener. To ProtoplasmicTraveler, Getsmart, and Dock9: I commend the three of you along with all who have stood for the voice of reason & truth amidst this ravinous pack of fork-tongued hyenas. Your contributions have been altogether invaluable to this discussion. If not for your sharp minds and convictions, I fear that the frenzied web of deceit these Masons have been spinning would have quickly suffocated any semblance of a fair and critical look at Vinnyboy's intriguing account.

Before now, I've perhaps naively had the impression that Masons and their counterparts in other nefarious "secret societies" were cunning enough to effectively stifle/discredit defectors who were stupid or brave enough to shed some light on their fraternity's vile exploits. After this thread, I'm not so certain they posses that ability...except maybe by use of coercion.

I'm astounded at the lack of critical thinking skills that have been displayed by those who are so obviously attempting to whitewash what appears to be a genuine account...a new initiate has just been hit with the realization that what he signed up for isn't exactly the friendly social club he thought it was. What really tickles me is that aside from all the straw-man arguments, ad hominem insults, and red herring diversions flailing about...the most incriminating morsels of truth are graciously provided by those who are so desperately trying to cover their shame. Which only makes one wonder what more can they be trying to hide?

A small sample of some rather damning statements:

Originally posted by Young minded old soul
I'm not entirley certain your trying to be a punk about the satanic crap or not, but call it what you will! Yes, same "fallen one" going by the name Apollo, but is it a wacked out cult... No!!! If you look at different cultures and religions beside Christianity then you would know that he wasn't such a bad being just the balnce on the spectrums of good and evil so he is integral to the whole of the world belief system. It's just a thing we have a flower and colors too and a coat of arms. The truth be told!!! No worship involved!

So, you're basically admitting that the "fallen one" held in high esteem by the brotherhood is the same as what we might call Satan. And these arguments are intended to defend your position of moral fortitude? Really?

Originally posted by Young minded old soul

Their "god" is Lucifer? Come on... Do even the littlest amount of research and you can relate the morning star in their rituals to Venus, the goddess, or planet if you will! This thread is coming unravelled...

OK. Here's what "the littlest amount of research" came up with.

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!" [Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff]

...and

"When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy." [Manly P. Hall, 33rd Degree, K.T., The Lost Keys of Freemasonry or The Secret of Hiram Abiff]

The two men that are arguably the most honored in Freemasonry (Albert Pike & Manley Palmer Hall) both clearly teach Luciferian philosophy. Besides didn't you state in the aforementioned post "Yes, same "fallen one" going by the name Apollo"? I'm sure you're already keen on this, but Lucifer/Apollo/Satan=synonymous.

Originally posted by Kellter
Below is a pic where you can see a close up of the alter. What is under the pyramid? A phallus?




This is getting weirder by the second.

That appears to be a statue of Choada, the

helmeted

pud god.

WOW!

That was my first reaction to this thread! I had taken the 12-step programme and was away from ATS for a long time, but, I succumbed and popped back on to see what I might find. This was it,my first fix... staring me in the face and promoting all of the ills that made me turn away from ATS in the first place under the thin veneer of the 'search for truth'.

Freemasonry is no more a single homogeneous body of members than the geographically dispersed citizens of the United States of America and the blanket statements to the effect that they are all the same, as made in some of the posts, is mind-boggling; to tar so many people with the same brush is ludicrous.

The rabid and dogmatic attacks on Freemasonry are hard to fathom, there are government officials and civil servants who wield far greater power and the bad apples in the bunch will rot the rest of the barrel regardless of whether they are Freemasons or not. The perfidy evident within the current government of the UK has prevailed for many years without the aid of a 'brotherhood' stemming from an honourable charter!

People may be Freemasons in name but not in action - Plenty of nurses and doctors had been convicted of deliberately and criminally causing death but clearly, that is not the primary role of a medic. Should we categorise the whole fraternity of medical personnel as 'evil' based on the actions of a few? After all, the very nature of medical intervention gives the opportunity and power to create mayhem for the sick and weak...

It is 'people' we should be concerned about, not organisations per se; unfortunately a number of posts on this thread have demonstrated that there are plenty of people willing to point the finger at others without regard to the validity of their own accusations or actions.

Hypocrisy rules!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Oh please the Jewlery Convention started well before the dust cloud.

And yet he complains of "jetlag" all this time later, an affliction that the vast majority get over in a few days, coincidentally the length of time Vinny claimed had passed since his 'encounter'.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So Sherlock regardless how long it takes YOU to recover from jetlag, do you know people who get jetlag, from not travelling?

Correct me if I'm wrong but virtually everybody gets jetlag. You seem to want to claim for the OP a condition he didn't claim himself. Sounds like you might be suffering from a variant of Stockholm Syndrome.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Do you guys actually think about your arguments?

Always. It's thinking about yours that reminds me of jetlag.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
How does a guy, you want to pretend never went to Italy, and is still at home in Chicago get Jetlag?

Duh!

Uh.....it's known as lying? You know...dissembling? Telling a fib? Pulling a fast one? He hasn't demonstrated anything by his posts that show he actually was IN Italy when he was posting. His posts started around dinner time and stopped a bit after 8pm local (Chicago) time.

Vinny claimed some fantastic things but there were obvious holes that called into question the veracity of the story and honesty of the teller. You feel compelled to believe his story, hook, line and sinker? That's your prerogative.

I'm more of a Deny Ignorance kind of guy.

To each his own.

Originally posted by Dock9
This is 2010, not the post-war [snip]

I'm sorry but was there something on-topic in that screed anywhere? I mean, we are nominally supposed to be discussing Vinny and his fantastic story.

At least that's what I thought this thread was about

Originally posted by harryhaller
What a coincidence, i was going to ask you the same?

I see your contribution is just as relevant.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Uh.....it's known as lying? You know...dissembling? Telling a fib? Pulling a fast one? He hasn't demonstrated anything by his posts that show he actually was IN Italy when he was posting. His posts started around dinner time and stopped a bit after 8pm local (Chicago) time.

Vinny claimed some fantastic things but there were obvious holes that called into question the veracity of the story and honesty of the teller. You feel compelled to believe his story, hook, line and sinker? That's your prerogative.

I'm more of a Deny Ignorance kind of guy.

To each his own.

Yes, you are some kinda guy hey? You call a man a liar, without a single shred of proof? In fact, as i showed in an earlier posting his story checks out on most levels. You (masons) interrogated his threads and still could not decide whether he was or wasn't an EA) ... get your facts first.

You are gouging holes where none were before, either accept his story, or PROVE otherwise. Since you can do neither, why are you here? Proclaiming his guilt in his absence? This isn't even about him anymore, it's about you and your boys clubs. And public perception thereof.

Who has more reason to lie? Him or you? At this point, i'm kind of biased against satan worshipers. (and if you deny worshipping satan, after the evidence quoted above, [Pike & Hall et al] then you are sadly deluded, or have been lied to, curious that that is EXACTLY what you accuse the OP of?)

By their fruits shall ye know them, and your fruits are rotten to the core!

Originally posted by KSigMason
I don't want a cowan slandering the good name of my Order.

Why do you use a term that calls him a pretender, an intruder, or an eavesdropper?

What proof do you have that he is not an initiate?