Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life...

Originally posted by harryhaller

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Uh.....it's known as lying? You know...dissembling? Telling a fib? Pulling a fast one? He hasn't demonstrated anything by his posts that show he actually was IN Italy when he was posting. His posts started around dinner time and stopped a bit after 8pm local (Chicago) time.

Vinny claimed some fantastic things but there were obvious holes that called into question the veracity of the story and honesty of the teller. You feel compelled to believe his story, hook, line and sinker? That's your prerogative.

I'm more of a Deny Ignorance kind of guy.

To each his own.

Yes, you are some kinda guy hey? You call a man a liar, without a single shred of proof?

Well, you've neglected to link to the question I was replying to. In it, ProtoplasmicTraveler asked how Vinny could have jetlag if he was in Chicago. What you linked to was my reply on how. As for the "single shred of proof", I'm assuming you didn't read the entire thread (especially the first 3-4 pages where holes started getting poked in Vinny's story by Mason and non-Mason alike).

Originally posted by harryhaller
In fact, as i showed in an earlier posting his story checks out on most levels.

Information that's available on the Internet, the same Internet that happens to include.......Chicago! Fancy that!

Originally posted by harryhaller
You (masons) interrogated his threads and still could not decide whether he was or wasn't an EA) ... get your facts first.

He hasn't demonstrated any indication that he's even that. Certainly, he's been given an easy way to prove his bona fides in this post by Saurus.

Given his own posts in February and March, if normal protocol were followed, he wouldn't even be an Entered Apprentice yet. However, under corner-cutting circumstances, he MIGHT have been made an EA sometime this month. Either way, he wouldn't have been permitted to attend a Regular Knights Templar function with just that degree.

And there's the rub: it wasn't anything to do with Regular Masonry. It seems to involve a group that's the equivalent of a diploma mill. And the Regular Masons here have been trying left, right and centre to make that difference understood to non-Masons.

Originally posted by harryhaller
You are gouging holes where none were before, either accept his story, or PROVE otherwise.

So far, holes have been gouged on two fronts. But more importantly, it's up to the OP to prove his assertion, not for others to disprove it. He's made all kinds of assertions with not a whit of substantiation, assertions that some people here want to accept on their face, hook, line and sinker.

Pardon me if I seem just a tad sceptical.

Originally posted by harryhaller
Since you can do neither, why are you here? Proclaiming his guilt in his absence?

Pointing out flaws in his story. Denying Ignorance, the stated intent of ATS

Originally posted by harryhaller
This isn't even about him anymore, it's about you and your boys clubs. And public perception thereof.

It's been derailed that way by certain posters who seem to live to do that sort of thing.

Originally posted by harryhaller
Who has more reason to lie? Him or you?

I can only speak for myself (and by extension, other actual Masons here). I'm here, as I stated above to Deny Ignorance. That, to me, means addressing statements that range from honest misunderstandings to outright, intentional fabrications. I'm not here to lie.

As for Vinny? You'd have to ask him.

Originally posted by harryhaller
At this point, i'm kind of biased against satan worshipers. (and if you deny worshipping satan, after the evidence quoted above, [Pike & Hall et al] then you are sadly deluded, or have been lied to, curious that that is EXACTLY what you accuse the OP of?)

By their fruits shall ye know them, and your fruits are rotten to the core!

And there we have it. The sum total of your 'investigation'.

Hello Embrace Ignorance. Guess I should left the three Protestant ministers who're part of our Lodge in on the deal that they're actually worshipping Satan and that might be a career-limiting move for them.

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by KSigMason
I don't want a cowan slandering the good name of my Order.

Why do you use a term that calls him a pretender, an intruder, or an eavesdropper?

What proof do you have that he is not an initiate?

Because his own posts have demonstrated it. Look to the first 5-6 pages of this thread

reply to post by Xtraeme


You got me dude. However, I do not claim to be an interpreter for "Famous People". Also, I do not claim to be a spelling bee champion. The point of my debate over his spelling was to question the veracity of his fabulous claims based on his miniscule grasp of the English language.


***Edited for spelling. Thank you Muzzleflash.

[edit on 4/23/2010 by RealityisanIllusion]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Xtraeme

 

Some of those posts are mine that you are quoting, not the other poster. I will be the first to admit that I type too quickly at times but I try to edit any mistakes if I catch them.

Edit to add: In the sake of disclosure, Vinny's grammar had nothing to do with me doubting he was a Mason.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by AugustusMasonicus]

I was merely pointing out the lack of attention to detail in a post that was supposed to be a revelation to ATS that Masons and The Knights Templar are the same thing.

reply to post by Xtraeme


Well since I've already stuck something in your craw, tell me how I can twist it a few times just for good measure.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

First up, i have read the whole thread, thank you. I assume by your ignorance that you didn't take note of my first post on this thread, where i pointed out that he didn't know how many days it had been?
If he had flown to Europe, been in conferences all week, followed by several late nights "translating" and ended up at 01h23 in his hotel room, you betcha he'd call it jet lag. That is perfectly reasonable.

If he was home making stuff up, he'd at least try be presentable. That is also a reasonable assumption. Your insistance that he never left Chicago is 100% at odds with anything else, save your own accusations. It is also at odds with his behaviour, see above, and details regarding where and what he was doing in Italy. His posts up till now have been consistant, if slightly naive.

I sincerely doubt he'll ever log in again. The offer by Saurus was made after he "went to bed". He has not logged on since, and it's entirely possible he is until now unaware of the offer. After the way his "brothers" turned on him in the thread? Frankly, ive been in top secret meetings as a waiter before, i wasn't "part" of the conference, but i was there anyhow, THAT is his central claim. He was not invited as a delegate, he was invited as a translator. Any need to prove any affiliation (further than aquaintances) no longer stands.

I do not swallow anything, i only ask to have the chance to examine the evidence, something that you and yours have made impossible. The evidence i have examined stands, your accusations have not. Deny ignorance? Or encourage meekness before the craft? Your actions betray your well considered words. Skepticism is NOT what the masons here have displayed, i'd call it more hostility. And fear. Anger too.

I sincerely doubt your protestant friends are as influential to masonic thought as Pike or Hall, and find your advertising of their indifference to be slightly disconcerting. Even if you are so misinformed as to believe all masons the world over are entirely benevolent, please don't expect the same from us. That is ignorance.

You know, my grandfather had a word he valued highly, it was "hoodwinked".



edit: i missed a /close quote



[edit on 23-4-2010 by harryhaller]

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by KSigMason
I don't want a cowan slandering the good name of my Order.

Why do you use a term that calls him a pretender, an intruder, or an eavesdropper?

What proof do you have that he is not an initiate?

Because his own posts have demonstrated it. Look to the first 5-6 pages of this thread

Well, here's a link to his posts.
www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=VinnyboyXI
Nothing he said backs up a shred of what you've said.

All I've seen is a bunch of scared little Masons attacking a perfectly interesting story, worthy of further investigation.

What has occurred to me is that all the Masons are in on it, at least the ones on ATS, and that there is a Grand Masonic New World Order being created out of Mason induced chaos.

Revenge will be sweet.

Back on topic folks...

The S.S. Freemason Knights Templar meeting here in Italy 2 days ago, changed my life... Is a little adrift...

"RIGHT FULL RUDDER!"

"ALL AHEAD ON TOPIC!"

Thanks...

This has been a rewarding thread to follow. Some shots have been exchanged with some casualties, but thanks to the Internet's preservability all the participants can be identified. I'll bet there now are some people seriously thinking of changing their ATS nicknames, and maybe some people may have red ears for having feedback from above

One of the reasons that makes ATS worth it's weight

-v

[edit on 23-4-2010 by v01i0]

If their opsec is that bad I want to know how they have been able to take over the world.

you know if you think he's lying, each time you bump this thread he is getting more attention, ultimately giving him what he wants. If he is not lying and he is telling the truth and you are bumping his thread, you are giving him what he wants.

I love ATS! You have a unique opportunity to interact with some of the most interesting and intelligent people, to learn to share, and sometimes even have a good laugh.

I consider myself very fortunate, because I enjoy a fair degree of popularity amongst many of the members, I am very grateful for that.

So, I probably know better than most, how quickly a thread can turn into a popularity contest, between personalities, between the left and right divide on issues. How the issues themselves can become secondary, in a popularity tug of war, where the personality of certain posters, or the prestige of parties, organizations, or nations, become more topical than the topic itself.

In a world full of divide and conquer, where people often look to champions, or something that they feel espouses and represents their ideas and who they are, it becomes very easy, some would argue to easy, to pick that side, or champion, and ride it all the way to the heights of glory or the ruin of defeat.

This thread is/was about Vincent, a semi-anonymous Member of ATS, who had/has a story to share, about an occurrence and incident that he purports happened to him in his life. It was/is about those events, partially imparted, in a moment of haste and uncertainty, with no small amount of trepidation evident, and displayed, as he attempted too.

The thread, for what would be obvious to most readers, has since degraded into more or less a referendum on Masonry, and that’s been as much by the invitation of Masons as it has been by the insistence of non-Masons.

As usual when an organization is involved, it’s easy, and almost a given that line drawn squarely down the middle is going to prompt people to jump or stand to the left or the right, pick a side, and then often pick their champions.

After a while that debate gets so heated, and impassioned, it’s not long before people forget what it is that got them to step to the right or the left in the first place.

It simply degrades into a battle between one side versus the other side, and what prompted the battle in the first place, in this case Vincent’s moral dilemma brought on by discoveries he purports and wishes to share, is completely forgotten.

That’s sad, considering Vincent had an interesting story, a story that might have been quite revealing, a story that might have been quite false, that the only way we would have ever truly known which was which, would have been interacting with him in a productive and civil way, just like ATS not only invites us but tasks us too.

There is the spirit of the law and then the letter of the law, and most of us, and I am no exception, and will on occasion skirt that line, when it comes to ATS’s, terms of service on civility and decorum.

When it came to Vincent and his story, we saw a number of posters on this thread, really straddle that line, and while they for the most part adhered to the letter of the law, they really trampled on the spirit of the law, and in the process we all lost something, not just Vincent.

The thread has turned into a real slug fest, such a slug fest, other bloggers on other forums were making note of it yesterday, on other places on the Internet!

Ultimately when story’s like Vincent’s lead to the polarization of sides, people become more concerned about their side of the divide, and their champions, than they do the person, or issue, that caused the rest to form battle lines to begin with.

And that my friend is the inherent danger in all organizations the Masonic Brotherhood included.

It is an organization, one where people have oaths to it, allegiance to it, and emotional attachments to it, that then supersede far too often anything else. People stop being just human beings, but a Mason, or a Democrat, or a Tory or a Republican, or a Christian, and anyone on the outside of that, that questions, or critiques becomes viewed as a threat, to the body of the organization as a whole.

Yet when they look in the mirror, they can’t help but remember they are human, inherently flawed us any of us might be, inherently good as any of us might be, but because their humanity is attached to that shared identity, and that identity often has goals or an agenda, they take those questions, critiques and criticisms, constructive or not, as personal effrontery, and far to often react emotionally, instead of responding intellectually.

For us outside of that circle of the organization, for those of us, who haven’t rented our hearts and minds, to Gods and Governments and organizations, as that discourse and debate becomes heated and pitched, as questions and accusations fly, we too then all to often have the propensity to react emotionally, instead of responding intellectually, and to in many cases, react, using our own dogmas, as guides, that just happen to be different than theirs.

In this process, we form another organization, a loosely affiliated one, called ‘us’ to counter theirs which is ‘them’, and as such, find ourselves on occasion having to defend those dogmas we don’t quite share, espoused by others on our side, that erode, and then diminish us as individuals, and just keep fueling the cycle of emotional reaction.

Are we tricked into it by the other side, or ourselves, as we do the one thing we often despise in organizations, in seeking safety or validity in numbers?

The inherent danger in Masonry is not the average Mason, but the fact that it has an organizational structure, born through affiliation.

The FBI has an office in most places in the nation, as part of its organization. One phone call from any other office can quickly set a chain of events in motion, hundreds, even thousands of miles away as a result, thanks to that organizational structure.

The Catholic Church has churches in almost every town in the World. One phone call from any other Church can quickly set a chain of events in motion, hundreds, even tens of thousands of miles away as a result, thanks to that organizational structure.

Like the FBI and the Catholic Church, the Masons too, have facilities spread throughout the world. Some in tiny towns and some in great big cities, but everywhere, and are equally capable of communicating across that network and utilizing that network, and like the FBI, and the Catholic Church, their members have their oaths and secrets, and an allegiance for many that supersedes and regulates their humanity.

The dangers are obvious, nepotism, insider influence, hidden agendas, and goals are all something, any organization on such a massive scale is fraught with and subject too.

Some of us find that frightening, some alarming, some disconcerting, while some of us see no harm or potential harm in that at all.

But that isn’t what this thread is about.

So whether as a Mason, you consider yourself as sweet and innocent and pure as the wind driven snow, or a Master of men, where nothing is taboo when it comes to your dominance or that of that of the Brotherhood, or somewhere in between.

THE THREAD ISN’T ABOUT YOU!

It’s about Vincent, and his story, not a referendum on Masonry, or a referendum on the virtues and qualities of those who for various reasons, see something repugnant or inherently dangerous, in a huge organization, whose members are sworn to secrecy by oaths, that is spread throughout the world.

It’s about Vincent’s story, what really happened to him, or whether anything really happened at all.

Conspiracies are what ATS is all about, and I would challenge any Mason, to really ask yourself, if it’s really impossible, that an organization so large its spread throughout the entire world, with an organized structure, could really be immune from Conspiracies, conspiracies inside it, conspiracies to subvert it, conspiracies to use it, to an end, and for a purpose, you yourself don’t envision.

You all are quick to see conspiracies against it, but some might wonder, if you really care for the craft so much, and your brothers so much, why you are so recreant and resistant to ever considering the very real mathematical probability of those other forms of conspiracy.

Many of you are keen to adhere to both the Spirit and Letter of the Masonic Laws, shame on anyone who isn’t really desirous of adhering to both the Spirit and the Letter of ATS Law while you are in this house of ATS.

Whether you like it or not, if your adherence to both the Spirit and Letter of the Masonic Laws, keeps you from adhering to the Letter and Spirit and of the ATS Laws, you are wittingly or not, part of a conspiracy yourself, a conspiracy against ATS, and what it stands for.

Think people, really think, and try to respond intelligently, and not just react emotionally.

The thread is about Vincent’s story that should be the primary and topical focus.



[edit on 23/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by VinnyboyXI


This thread isn't dead yet...

What you really should do is join & get as high up position-wise as you can. Then tear the whole Knights Templar apart. Release all the secrets of the web and publicly expose them for what they are, monsters...

Originally posted by KSigMason
I personally just want to clarify with the OP about his "Templar meeting". No one can deny that there are holes in the story.

The OP has no duty to waterproof his 'story' to avoid splashing Masons in their own puddle. He was gallant enough to candidly share his experience with ATS members and Masons alike. He even believed that your brotherhood was built upon trust. He erroneously trusted you to be honest in telling him, a brother Mason, the truth - assuming you were misinformed and not deceitfully withholding knowledge from their alleged 'brothers', as information is systematically concealed from those at lower ranks.


We must admit that he was guilty. First for choosing this public venue to discuss matters destined to forever remain secret. Secondly for trusting his brethren to defend the truth and share their knowledge. Thirdly for adding the rest of humanity to his considerate concern for the establishing the truth.


He might have done better to trust his Masonic brothers. But not to support his legitimate quest for truth: but to maintain order, police other members, suppress disclosure, intimidate and bully him until they he gets the message.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Disdain by the general public? How so? Most people I meet are intrigued and ask questions. Only a small percentage have been as rude as some of conspiracy theorists on this site. Many people I've met are grateful for the charitable work provided by the various Masonic charities.

Giving material assistance will buy you a lot of tolerance. If despite that the consensus is that Masons do Evil behind closed doors, then what can I say ?

Originally posted by KSigMason
I didn't say I was going to check his membership, but I could ask someone who could. I personally don't have access to the Illinois membership database.

That's why you are organized in a network, right? So that you can access anyone you want anywhere they might be and enlist their help in any nature of venture, whether legal or not, whether ethical or not, whether criminal or not.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Your post shows me that you have no real knowledge about the ceremonies within Freemasonry. Your rude nature does not allow for any real debate. You came into this with your own disdain and you have done nothing but try to slander Freemasonry. None of your allegations hold an ounce of truth and have no legs to stand on.

Do you proceed with these ceremonies public? Do you convey knowledge about them? Have you and yours been courteous in this debate? Have you and yours shown any disdain? More importantly, has your Lodge ever considered investing in the purchase of a mirror? Here's one to try on for size. Like the original OP you probably warned this gent too. However it didn't take so he was 'silenced' to protect your wonderful secrets, in a Masonic execution on a Masonic plaza:

Originally posted by KSigMason
Well, one could argue we are inclusive for just the religious, but we don't see that as a bad thing. This is explained pretty well to EAs so its something even the newest member knows.

Is this a way of infiltrating OTHER religions, by admitting priests and pastors, ayatollahs and popes? Why then don't you accept individuals who are agnostic or atheist? Isn't it their right to believe what they want? Or does BELIEVING have a lot to do with your own credence and religious faith?

Originally posted by KSigMason
Just because we require a man to have a faith doesn't mean we are a religion. We don't preach salvation, we don't seek converts, nor is religious discussion allowed to be discussed within the Lodge, and we offer no sacrament. We support religion, but we don't interfere with the practice of the individual's religious beliefs. Each follows his own faith in his own way.

So you don't pay tribute and venerate the Great Architect? You don't mention him in the Lodge? You don't seek to convert anyone to believing in HIM? You don't preach salvation because you are all damned ?

Originally posted by KSigMason
Actually Freemasonry is enjoying a new wave of membership. Last year we held a ceremony every meeting, often with multiple candidates.

Right. I saw your latest recruitment advert which is rather enticing:

Originally posted by KSigMason
Its funny some of you are screaming about privacy violations, but you all sure seem damn pleased to stomp on what I do in my private time. If I want to be a Freemason, who are you to deny me that? It is not a criminal organization and it has survived the defamation throughout its existence. You claim evils and corruption, but provide no evidence. Its an empty accusation.

I find it quite amusing that you find it OK to violate others privacy just because you do so on your private time and not during office hours. Nobody is denying you the right to be a Freemason, so don't deny us the right to notice just how daft that is. How can anyone know that Freemasonry isn't a criminal organization? Because it has survived? Presumably Jack the Ripper survived the defamation too. How can we provide evidence of Evil and Corruption when your closed doors provide ample protection for just that reason?


We all know that Evil doesn't hide in the darkness. We all know that Corruption doesn't thrive in secrecy. We all know that you actually hide from the public just so we don't discover how altruistic and charitable you are! Thanks so much for your kind charity... from the many children in your 33rd 'rank' ceremonies.

Originally posted by harryhaller

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

First up, i have read the whole thread, thank you. I assume by your ignorance that you didn't take note of my first post on this thread, where i pointed out that he didn't know how many days it had been?

I didn't. My bad. When a thread blows up to 25 pages in a day, furballs like that tend to make it difficult to track who's posted and who's a johnny-come-lately with a context-free posting.

Originally posted by harryhaller
If he had flown to Europe, been in conferences all week, followed by several late nights "translating" and ended up at 01h23 in his hotel room, you betcha he'd call it jet lag. That is perfectly reasonable.

Operative word? If.

The one person in a position to clarify has been silent on the matter even though he's been on-line in the interim.

Why the silence I wonder?

Originally posted by harryhaller
If he was home making stuff up, he'd at least try be presentable. That is also a reasonable assumption.

I'm sorry but by that you mean......?

Originally posted by harryhaller
Your insistance that he never left Chicago is 100% at odds with anything else, save your own accusations. It is also at odds with his behaviour, see above, and details regarding where and what he was doing in Italy. His posts up till now have been consistant, if slightly naive.

The information he posted was easily sourced online. Doesn't prove where he was when he sourced it. And I'm not insisting that he's currently in Chicago (if indeed that's where he's from); I merely point out that there's nothing that he's posted that proves he's in Italy. He could be in Hong Kong for the difference it's made.

As for anything that Vinny actually posted, it's rather early in the game to be pronouncing consistency based on one set of posts on one day over the course of an hour and a half.

Originally posted by harryhaller
I sincerely doubt he'll ever log in again.

On that, I think we can agree although probably not for the same rationale.

Originally posted by harryhaller
The offer by Saurus was made after he "went to bed". He has not logged on since, and it's entirely possible he is until now unaware of the offer.

He logged-on yesterday. If he was inclined to clarify the holes in his story, he could have. Given that this thread apparently made it onto the front page of ATS (and that it's been at the top of the SS forum), I sincerely doubt that he's "unaware".

Originally posted by harryhaller
After the way his "brothers" turned on him in the thread?

Thus far, there's no indication whatever (and quite a bit to the contrary) that he actually is a "brother".

Originally posted by harryhaller
Frankly, ive been in top secret meetings as a waiter before, i wasn't "part" of the conference, but i was there anyhow, THAT is his central claim. He was not invited as a delegate, he was invited as a translator. Any need to prove any affiliation (further than aquaintances) no longer stands.

Were you asked to translate at these "secret meetings"? He's claiming to have been functionally privy to information that, if this involved Regular Masonry, it has been amply demonstrated repeatedly through this thread he wouldn't have been allowed to do, no matter how excellent a translator he might be.

That this 'meeting' appears to involve the masonic equivalent of a diploma mill and is as secret as the location of the local McDonald's kind of mutes the 'secrecy' and 'importance' and relevance as concerns actual Masonry.

Originally posted by harryhaller
I do not swallow anything, i only ask to have the chance to examine the evidence, something that you and yours have made impossible.

Sorry but if two questions directed to Vinny are the measure what it takes to 'silence' him, then perhaps you should be looking at why that might be. Saurus tossed him the Masonic equivalent of a lob ball which, if he is actually a Mason as he claims, he should be able to smack out of the park. The other question was (IIRC) originally posited by a non-Mason but also goes directly to his story.

Originally posted by harryhaller
The evidence i have examined stands, your accusations have not.

Your judgment. You're welcome to it.

Originally posted by harryhaller
Deny ignorance? Or encourage meekness before the craft?

Deny Ignorance.

Originally posted by harryhaller
Your actions betray your well considered words. Skepticism is NOT what the masons here have displayed, i'd call it more hostility. And fear. Anger too.

Masons have bent over backward to see if or how Vinny's story could have an element of truth. Forgive me if I don't take every pronouncement as Gospel when I notice obvious disconnects.

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012
you know if you think he's lying, each time you bump this thread he is getting more attention, ultimately giving him what he wants. If he is not lying and he is telling the truth and you are bumping his thread, you are giving him what he wants.

True. However, leaving falsehood unaddressed is worse.

I certainly don't think for a moment that I'm going to change the mind of any of the resident anti-Masons nor do I think they entertain the notion of changing mine.

If some ATS posters who don't know (or don't particularly care one way or another) about Masonry learn something, then it's worth it in the long run.

HTH
Fitz

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Awesome post my friend! Anyway, I find it odd how the whole conversation seemed to turn to finding out if the Templar Knights had anything to do with Masonry. Or was it the other way around?

This is by far the least interesting thing Vinny mentioned in his opening post and I really believe we should concentrate on the other aspects of his claims with the same fervor. Like when Vinny said that he was told that they hold the secrets of the ages. Or that their religion is in fact that of some Pagan Mystery Schools.

These are just two of the claims. He also mentions some very public figures being present at this event. I am wondering who they might have been. If names cannot be given, maybe a link to something of interest? I hope Vinny can find his back because I for one would love for him to elaborate on these things.

Originally posted by Getsmart

The OP has no duty to waterproof his 'story' to avoid splashing Masons in their own puddle.

And there's still no indication (his assertion aside, that is) that he's actually a Mason.

Saurus gave him a very easy way to establish his bona fides in this post.

Absent Vinny addressing that, pretty much this whole thread has been for nought.