911 Debunkers Take Beating on ATS.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by odd1out
. The motto here is DENY IGNORANCE---ask yourself what that really means and you have found an the answer to all OS believers and why there is an ignore button on ATS.

The sad thing about most "truthers" is their polarity. That is, the people who don't buy into a 911 conspiracy are considered "ignorant" and "believe the OS". Personally, I've spent a number of years investigating the myriad of claims of conspiracists only to chase every one of their leads to find no tangible evidence in support of their claims whatsoever. I've been open-minded, investigated, and in the end determined that the conspiracy theorists have less evidence and more hogwash than the "official story". I am no huge champion of the "official story" - I see some problems therein. However, I see no appeal to any of the various 911 conspiracies based on their profound lack of evidence; this coming after my own investigations at the behest of such "truthers". To label others with a blanket statement that people who don't find evidence of conspiracy as "ignorant" and "believing the os" really reveals one's own ignorance and willingness to make unfounded assumptions.

You stated the following: I've spent a number of years investigating the myriad of claims of conspiracists only to chase every one of their leads to find no tangible evidence in support of their claims whatsoever.

Would you supply some specific instances where you 'chased' the truther's claims and found not tangible evidence?

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
They will try to discredit 911 truth conversations with these disinformation theories that no real truth seeker ever supported them. Lead the opposition, or muddy the waters.

The 911 coverup is here and it is ugly.

p.s Keep an eye out for these ridiculous theories.

Here is some info on the theories and their tactics.
www.911disinformation.com...

25 ways to suppress the truth www.whale.to...

Interesting SH. I for one believe that planes were flown into the WT center and they collapsed. Because of their collapse it also caused building 7 to also collapse. Who flew and why those planes were used in the attack is inconclusive. Something was flown into the Pentagon but it is inconclusive what. I contrarily don't believe a lot of proposed theories that others have used outlining definitive proof of cover up. Currently I am in the "I'm not sure what happened on 9/11” mind set. Imo debunking is important. Usually on my job, I have my work reviewed by friends and adversaries alike. I may not like what some people say about my work or topics, but thank god there is a review process because I have been wrong before and I'm not too egotistical to admit it.

I always approach all conspiracies in the same fashion.
1.) does it smell like a conspiracy? do all the fact add up?
2.) can I disaprove what people are claiming? if so I say it's debunked. I'm always happy to lead the opposition in such circumstances and so should everyone else. conversely, aren't you trying to do the same here?
3.) what points if brought to light would change my mind? if it comes forward I'm happy to admit I was wrong. really more people should write these things down before approaching any conspiracy topic for discussion.
4.) if it can't be proved or disproved, I file it in my inconclusive category.

I like facts, and I exercise my right to interpret them with my own scrutiny. In my opinion your "25 ways to suppress the truth" website has a lot of points which counter intelligent debate on conspiracy topics. I site the following:
i.) Enigmas have no solution - well in imo they don't, but it would seem the enigmas of 9/11 are enough for people to conclude it was an inside job. that's not good enough for me. Enigmas will always leave it in the not proved yet category.
ii.) Demand complete solutions - why should this ever be a problem? since when is demanding proof a problem? without a solution or proof there can be no truth, only enigmas.

So I conclude the following about 9/11:
i.) non conclusions and enigmas only leave us asking more questions and a conspiracy it does not make, at least not yet.
ii.) I've stated this on other threads. I want someone who was an insider and who has proof, a real bonified whistle blower to come forward. Imo if we don't get this, 9/11 will always be in the "I'm not sure what happened" category.

Regarding conspiracies in general everyone should just chill as people are always going to believe what they want to believe regardless of how much proof is brought in to support their point of view or not support their point of view.

Conviction of beliefs has never solved anything.

reply to post by Phake


This is no different than the time when the curvature of the earth was being debated. Are you going to believe what everyone else assumes to be true, what you are told... or are you going to take into consideration the facts that science presents. The official story is nothing more than that... A STORY!!

Let me remember you again on who the members of the 10 man 9/11 Committee were again and their professions:

1. Thomas Kean, the chair, is a teacher and politician, with a Master's from Columbia Univ. Teacher's College
2. Lee Hamilton, vice chair, and is a lawyer
3. Richard Ben-Veniste, lawyer
4. Fred Fielding, lawyer
5. Jamie Gorelick, lawyer
6. Slade Gorton, lawyer
7. Timothy Roemer, lawyer
8. James Thompson, lawyer
9. Bob Kerry was trained as a pharmacist; after military served as Nebraska governor, representative, and senator.
10. John Lehman, an investment banker and Reagan's secretary of the navy, completed the Ph.D with a dissertation entitled "Functional Analysis of Congress and the Executive in Foreign Policy.

Its a story because you can't provide facts if you have no experts in the field that you are investigating. There were no scientists, engineers, intelligence experts or anyone of relevance on the Committee. Even a few ON THE COMMITTEE have said that you have been lied to. But those delusional deniers REFUSE to take this into account, which renders all of your credibility absent.

A new investigation will be rewarded, and the truth will be exposed. The Official Cover-up will be brought to light.

It has been stated that the theory of 'directed energy weapons' is nothing but a debunker's tactic to obfuscate the central claims of the truth movement.
For the sake of clarity the theory of the use of directed energy weapons is being advanced by Dr. Judy Wood, the former professor of mechanical engineering at Clemson, before being fired due to her involvement in the truth movement. I believe she is trying to determine why the two towers were completely powdered as they fell. I'm not sure whether classic controlled demo can cause this type of total destruction.
I bring this up so that we're all clear on who is saying what. This random stating of unsubstantiated 'evidence' and other claims doesn't help the cause of truth.
If this theory is wrong or 'silly' I'm sure it will be disputed sometime in the future. Right now, however, it is not the product of debunkers and I'm in no postition to say it is not possible.

Originally posted by baboo
Would you supply some specific instances where you 'chased' the truther's claims and found not tangible evidence?

All of them. Every theory to date.

No tangible evidence in any instance.

I could go through them all I suppose but in the end... all of them.

Whether its important or not the debunkers getting a beating, as stated in the OP, is in my opinion irrelivant. What is more important is not allowing yourself to be drawn into the traps they set.

Energy and research should be used to gather evidence and data. Not used to argue with the debunkers over the same old tired tactics they use.

I agree we all know who they are. We all know that they arrive within seconds stars flying to and fro to each other. We all know a high precentage of them also use the same tactics in any thread pertaining to Israel being slated for whatever reason. We could all name them, but I ask, what would be the point?.

Put them on ignore, it realy is that simple. For a debunker, troll or disinfo agent to do their stuff takes two....Dont be the other person.


Respects

I think it is problematic that some people do not yet understand the depth of depravity...
the ABSOLUTE loss of those qualities that define us as human...
the irreversible path that leads an otherwise normal and, at one time perhaps, compassionate human being to...

Plan for the destruction of the twin towers..(that, in isolation, not so bad)

Plot to put the blame on innocent people.

Steal the human resources...the labor of people that BELIEVE in civilization and their FAITH IN HUMANITY...

Execute the plan without any emotion other than ECSTASY, when the towers are falling and people are jumping out of windows hundreds of feet in the air to escape searing heat...

Order the execution of anyone who comes forward with the evidence that would convince the casual human observer that something is amiss here...


The fact that SO MANY of us still do not understand the enormous consequences of that day ASTOUNDS me.
Does anyone really believe it was a bunch of recycled third world has-been "terrorists"?

Only the Mossad could have pulled this off. Our own CIA is not even that good. Killers yes, but DUMB!!! OMG.

Of course,
I COULD be wrong.

I have a different take on this. I like both sides! The 9/11 threads are one of my main reasons for being here. I like the give and take. I do wish that the personal insults and jabs would be dropped. It is unnecessary and makes me want to ignore the post. I think there are good points on both sides, frankly. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and beliefs. 9/11 happened. We can never change it. But understanding more about it is as important today as it was in 2001.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


I'm sorry.. I'm not a believer of the OS either, but this thread is nothing more than trolling. What is the actual point of this thread? and why the hell is it at the top. Both sides have their own idiots.. this thread just proves it..

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


So, we all take your word then that's it? Although, you can't name one thing that you investigated? Everything regarding 9/11 is fake and nothing more? I'm going to need more then your word; this is by far the wildest comment I've read on ATS , if you really ran down every lead involved with 9/11; why would you not post those findings for us to look at? or even why not keep them around on your computer so everytime one of these threads sprouts up you can easily dismiss it with your vast amount of information? How much did all that cost to fly around and talk with all the different people and what exactly is your degree from college to give what your saying some credit?

[edit on 7-3-2010 by agentofchaos]

Originally posted by TheLoony
I'd bet only 99% of them are paid for what they do.

I wish I'd be paid to accept reality and come to terms with the sociological atmosphere we live in today.

There wouldn't be an industry for truthers if facts would prove your inane conspiracy theories.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Maybe they, the ones who understand the OS, not believe it, are just tired of people posting the same thing 7 years later with no proof. There is only conjecture and coincidence.

I myself get slammed but I am not a OS believer. I think 93 was shot down and I also think that the government is responsible for not allowing it to happen but not allocating the resources that were available. I blame it directly on the transition teams from Clinton to Bush.

I must confess that when I first went to places like prison planet and such I realized at that point I needed to investigate. Was this true? Were there bombs? A cover up? After reading numerous 'books' and not relying on Google I realized it was much deeper. When the The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States released its findings it was amazing how far back it goes. The hate. The plan to bring down the west. It started with the assassination of Anwar Sadat. That was point zero for this war we are in.

en.wikipedia.org...

If you want to connect the dots, start there and move forward and you will see this was not the US that fooled us with 9/11 but the 20th anniversary of Al Qeada earliest beginnings. Omar Abdel-Rahman and Ayman al-Zawahiri. Look those guys up.

It is easy to blame the rich for what happens but a little over 50 years ago Daimler-Benz and Volkswagen were associated with the people who killed millions during genocide but I still see the Passat and the new AMG SL on the market. You can ALWAYS track large corporations during war. It is what keeps the little man employed and the big man in control. Look into how much British royalty supported the Germans. That is crazy.

But in the end, there is NO evidence that there were explosives. In order to bring down 2 100 story buildings and another 47 story, are you truly going to believe that there was nothing? THey are still finding body parts to this day. Something would have been found and it would be the Holy Grail. I know all the arguments and went into the rabbit hole but in the end there was nothing. Just hijackers and 3000 dead and a government that was caught with its pants down and holding it....


I will debate ANY 9/11 Truther on ANY 9/11 subject at any time. I have tried this in many of the threads that are started and nothing happens. So don;t think any one is taking a beating, I think we are just tired of the SOS/DD of the posts.

Any takers???

Originally posted by Donoso
There wouldn't be an industry for truthers if facts would prove your inane conspiracy theories.

And here we have it. This thread is about "debunkers taking a beating". Not quite right. Both sides take a beating from the other. Blind faith on both sides. Fueled by the PTB. You guys beat each other up, trade slings, act like children.

The PTB must be happy. You guys quibble about the smallest thing, with personal barbs of course, nothing is achieved. THEY win.

Originally posted by intrepid
The PTB must be happy. You guys quibble about the smallest thing, with personal barbs of course, nothing is achieved. THEY win.

I enjoy how you picked my post out when I've been inactive on these forums for well over a year. What quibbling? A lot of us have come to accept the truth: there's no point in argument when you're essentially debating with brick walls.

Originally posted by Donoso

Originally posted by intrepid
The PTB must be happy. You guys quibble about the smallest thing, with personal barbs of course, nothing is achieved. THEY win.

I enjoy how you picked my post out when I've been inactive on these forums for well over a year.

It made the point.

A lot of us have come to accept the truth: there's no point in argument when you're essentially debating with brick walls.

As does this. Both close minded and the only thing shared is insults. Congrats, you guys are used by the PTB.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Donoso

Originally posted by intrepid
The PTB must be happy. You guys quibble about the smallest thing, with personal barbs of course, nothing is achieved. THEY win.

I enjoy how you picked my post out when I've been inactive on these forums for well over a year.

It made the point.

A lot of us have come to accept the truth: there's no point in argument when you're essentially debating with brick walls.

As does this. Both close minded and the only thing shared is insults. Congrats, you guys are used by the PTB.

You made absolutely no concise point. Close minded? I enjoy your holier than thou attitude. Your fence sitting doesn't help anybody's cause and is a greater distraction to this debate than having the willpower to atleast make a decision about where you stand.

PEOPLE! STOP TROLLING.

You know what you are doing. It does no good. You will convince no one with back and forth baiting threads.

Originally posted by Donoso
You made absolutely no concise point.

The point is VERY well made. Anyone looking at this without bias will see the point clearly.

I enjoy your holier than thou attitude. Your fence sitting doesn't help anybody's cause and is a greater distraction to this debate than having the willpower to atleast make a decision about where you stand.

"Holier that thou"? Again, my point made. Not that way at all, this forum is an embarrassment to the board. Even those that would like to participate in this forum see that. They choose not to wallow with the others in this muck. Same with myself. Hell, I made an observation about this forum, not my thoughts on 911 and I'm getting static. Grow up children.

I am bored, I have a little time, SO...
perhaps you could expound on "TPTB are using you" bit?
Yes, we are bickering. We are debating. Gradually, more people understand that the OS is BS,
but, YOU are saying that TPTB...what?
orchestrated this?

What exactly?

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Well, SH...not that I'm accusing you of this, but IF one were to wish for stars and flags, this is a sure-fire way to get em'!!!!


OK. that's off my chest.

Now, you wrote this line in your OP:

Now, since they have been taking a beating here the next step is for these individuals or groups to start posting Bizarre, Stupid theories like , Directed energy weapons, pods, space beams, lasers, fuel tankers...

I suggest a bit of research on your part.

Take a look at the members who are actually STARTING the threads on those topics!

I guarantee you, it is only the 'truthers' side doing so. THAT is why the topic is brought up so often---out of ridicule for what other 'truthers' have done, previously.

Do you remember Capt. John Lear? Probably not, I don't think you've been around long enough.

A well respected man, very accomplished in his own right, in many ways.

He was a bona fide 'Consipiracy Master" here on ATS. His threads are in the ATS archives, still. You may wish to do some research, there.

Due to personal reasons, he chooses not to post here anymore,and has severed ties with ATS. He is NOT 'banned' in any way, shape or form, BTW.

Point is, he went on at great length about the top-secret space-based energy weapons that were, according to him, used to destroy the WTC.

He also questioned AAL 77, and the Pentagon. He claimed to have been good friends with the Captain of 77, Charles "Chip" Burlingame, and Capt. Lear stated more than once that he believed that Capt. Burlingame was alive and well.

(I forget, now, what Lear's take on the Pentagon was...may have to look it up for myself!)


Now....I could be a wanker and go find a whole bunch of the types of threads you're accussing what you (or others on 'your side' call "trusters") of doing, threads that have been started just within the last several months by current, and active, 'truther' ATS members on this Board!

Off the top of my head, I remember very recently pointing out to a particular member just WHY the "767-tanker" notion was ridiculous. Because they have YET TO BE BUILT! Even yesterday, was a news article, Boeing is going to attempt to get the contract by re-bidding on it.

The most egregious, to me, of many of these recent threads (happened to be by the same OP, coincidentally) was "Did the USAF help pull off 9/11?

I found that one particularly offensive.

Well, I said I wasn't going to provide examples, but...sometimes an example or two are needed, to illustrate a point.