911 Debunkers Take Beating on ATS.

how can the truth movement be taking a beating when the crowd on the other side of the table still use circular reasoning with out understanding the context within their own reasoning ,

truth movement sais it was an inside job

"others" say its not an inside job but terrorists,.....

how can one say its not an inside job when pretty much all "terrorists" are intelegence assets and trained by your tax money...

reply to post by DCDAVECLARKE

Thanks I needed that.
I see one o' those on this very topic being a vehicle to bring this stuff to light.Have you seen the Star Wars one about the Death Star?Of course you have.

This all is getting a bit shopworn.Good thing the postitutes are coming up with new avatars at least to keep the NOVELTY coming.Their arguments aren't anything new fo sho.
Cleese rules.

reply to post by Dogdish


laughing...whistling... probably a bit of both.

i wish you good luck, dogdish.

we're all gonna need it.

just remember - succees of your movement hinges on credibility. always strive for the highest standards of evidence.

Hi everybody,

It's new investigation time, aren't we all willing to have one? All sides could agree, let's have an independent body of some type and find out what happened, who can't see the logic in that?

Power and Equality

We are ALL on the same side here, everyone needs to truthfully look from the others' point of view

You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I see the situation differently. I think the truthers are the ones who "take a beating" not the trusters.

Beating? 'Trusters' are easy to spot and while I don't put anybody on ignore, I can generally tell by the first few lines in any post whether or not to waist time reading it. That goes for 'truthers' too.

I like what TrueTruth writes about 'evidence'. There's not enough to make a airtight case either way.

And what happens if said 'evidence' is found? Either side will claim fraud on the other and that's just what the 'masterminds' want.

Open your mind and eyes, be ready to change your mind, and ask questions.

Oh and one more thing, how can any new investigation find answers when the evidence has been destroyed or compromised?

reply to post by Phake

YOU,my friend,are wrong in your blind assumption that there is no evidence which contradicts the OS and casts reasonable doubt upon same. There is more than ample incidents,coincidences,video,witness testimony,unexplained deaths of witnesses,timing of events,loss of records,physical location of major players on that day,joint excercises on that day,critical failures of key security functions,key officials contradicting their personal version of what happened,key officials contradicting the official version,private investigations which involve qualified engineers,"miraculous proofs"that your OS touts,alledged hijackers who turned up alive elsewhere,... I could go on and on,but I realize that nothing I could say or prove to you will ever be acceptable. And I have no problem with that,for you my friend,are entitled to your opinions and beliefs even though there are those of us who won't agree with you . I feel that most,if not all,Truthers will tend to agree with me on that point.All that we are asking from you,is that same level of respect which grants us the right to question when,where and what we feel warrants further investigation. I can't speak for all of those here, but I am not here to be your enemy.To the contrary,if the alarm needs to be sounded and I stand idly by,not wanting to get involved,then I am complicit in whatever befalls you as a result of not having tried to alert you. Where is the harm in that? If it turns out that we are all just a bunch of paranoid delusionals and wrong,no harm done.However, if it turns out that we are justified, and we take measures to ensure our well beings,and you have chosen to turn a deaf ear to us,then we can not be held accountable for you.Would you agree with me on that?We mean you no ill-will my friend. Everything at the beginning of my post is available for anyone who feels up to the task of serious inquiry,it is impossible for me to present it all here.In any other circumstance,it would warrant further investigation, so why not here? I am in no way attempting to convert you to my way of thinking, I am only asking for the same respect that we afford you.

People can be passionate about what they believe and when what they believe doesn't happen to be the truth, they are debunkers, unfortunately. They are just ignorant to the truth and need to look up a little more information or they are with the agenda behind the 9/11 attacks.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Old, tired tactic.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b5fbaaef9d23.jpg[/atsimg]

People who have a different opinion post and you throw a temper tantrum and insult the 99% of the world that does not agree with you.

Did I actually see a Truther on page one imply 99% of those who don't agree with you are paid?

You folks are causing your own demise with your childish behavior, your blindness to a lack of real evidence and your obvious paranoia.

You completely refuse to consider alternate theories as to what happened. You blindly argue for evidence that is on its face outlandish. You exhibit a violent attitude towards anyone that does not agree with you fully. You constantly show a total lack of critical thinking ability and embrace any insane evidence, no matter how outlandish, as long as it leads to your desired conclusion.

When people try to join in your conversation and don't agree with you; how about you consider what they have to say and debate it like intelligent adults, instead of attacking them. You never know. Some may make sense and in fact many who disagree with you do make sense.

Open your minds, your brains won't fall out.

If what you really want is threads where only those who agree fully with you can post, you certainly picked the wrong board.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I'm pretty sure all there trying to say is that its is pretty low/stupid to make up a completly ridiculous story to try and get people who are searching for the truth, baiting them with things that they are open minded to, to take them off of the bandwagon that is the truth on the subject Just saying Everyone has a freedom of speech, but why waste it making up things, i'll just never understand people

reply to post by Blaine91555


you are so right i couldnt agree more, seems like people just cant stand someone thinkin diffrent to them

Originally posted by beautifuldreamer
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

I'm pretty sure all there trying to say is that its is pretty low/stupid to make up a completly ridiculous story to try and get people who are searching for the truth, baiting them with things that they are open minded to, to take them off of the bandwagon that is the truth on the subject Just saying Everyone has a freedom of speech, but why waste it making up things, i'll just never understand people

Fair enough. But with the "truthers", I find absolutely nobody "searching for the truth". I do find a lot of people trying to confirm a set of pre-conceived notions about conspiracies and going to whatever lengths necessary to do so. In fact, referring to such behavior and/or beliefs as "truth" in any way is insidious, deceptive and self-deceptive.

I think part of the reason that people cling to the OS is that the implications of what our own government did to us that day are so staggering it frightens people to their very core.
If the truth were known and accepted it may as well be the end of the world for some people. Most folks and the MSM have their fingers in their ears crying LA LA LA LA I AM NOT LISTENING and inside they have just enough doubt to scare them shirt-less.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


Shadow i was deeply considering the creation of a similar thread...you beat me to it, thanks. As i've been observing these discussions here for some time, i was always struck with the speed with which they arrived to the topics...then noticed the same ones repeatedly arriving in short order to distort/subvert the discussions with the same quasi intellectual, didactic, myopic well rehearsed language. To those with discernment, the obviousness of intent is plain. True, some are earning money...though the more interesting proposition to me is, as Joeseph Goebbles stated, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
it's that so many are so afraid of the "truth" and the wieght it carries. Some time ago i was very fortunate to meet a Man who spent his life in the intelligence communities, and was willing to discuss with a junior, his perspectives. Before asking him the questions i'd prepared, he posed one of his own...which was "consider carefully the nature of your life at present, and ask yourself if your comfortable with it, ask yourself whether or not what i have to say is worth the mental upheaval and probable anxiety you'll feel" it was my moment of RedPill VS: BluePill
My life has never been the same, yet i remain greatful i "jumped down the rabbitt hole". As Schopenhuar stated " All truth passes through three stages...First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently attacked. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident". the forces that have owned this planet for so long have vast resources at their disposal...yet in the end, will fall victim to the same blind arrogance that all tyranny ultimately does.

Originally posted by belial259
I haven't believed the OS for years now and nothing could convince me to.

I never believed the OS. Several things immediately seemed incredible to me: (1) the way the towers and building 7 came down like classic controlled demolitions, (2) how nearly everything within the buildings except the steel was converted to clouds of dust which spread throughout the city, (3) how quickly the Bush administration named the designated perpertrators before any investigation got under way, and (4) Bush's televised warnings that "if you ain't with us, you're with the terrorists" and his statement that we should not entertain outrageous consipracy theories, in other words, don't you dare question what we say happened!

[edit on 3/7/2010 by dubiousone]

reply to post by hermes.trismegistus


Care to share something of what you learned from that conversation, or how it pertains to 9/11? I'm not doubting you - just intensely curious.

I had a similar encounter once. Friend (former) who had been in ... lets call it super special ops. The way he put it was, if you thought our government was up to no good, you have no idea just how bad it gets. The guy had spent time working for organized crime in his younger days, and he said he felt far, far worse about things he had done in service to the us government.

In truth, I never asked him specifics. I decided at the time that I didn't want to know. The guy was a bit, temperamental. I didn't want to share of his dark side.

Anyhow. Love to hear a bit about what you learned!

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
These debunkers or blind believers have gone to new lows in name calling, flaming, trolling, insulting, derailing and attempting to ruin the ATS experience but all became a failure on their part as most people identified with their tactics, lack of maturity and rationale. Debunking = Epic Fail.

By the tone of your post you'd think it wasn't "epic fail" but "epic win". More and more on this site I see new threads warning others to "watch out for these guys" simply because they've encountered people who think differently than they do. If you're not up to all that comes from public forums it may be in your best interest to remain off of them.

Wow, I actually have to agree with you traditionaldrummer, except for where there is such transparency as to reveal trolling. The OP is describing attempts to derail threads on purpose and stifle productive discussion. That should be a part of public forums too, don't you agree?

[edit on 7-3-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

Originally posted by TheLoony


To hell with them and their fear. I read 1984 twenty-five years or so ago, and was afraid when I finished it. Now that it's come to be, the doublespeak, the thoughtcrime, all of it, I'm not afraid anymore.

i could never agree more that book scared the # out of me and the fact that more and more everyday that is what our government is coming to be! I think what most of us on ATS are looking for is an independent investigation with excess to all of the information available!

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow

Wow, I actually have to agree with you traditionaldrummer, except for where there is such transparency as to reveal trolling. The OP is describing attempts to derail threads on purpose and stifle productive discussion. That should be a part of public forums too, don't you agree?

Sure. I suppose. Trolling happens in all public forums and can be dealt with in the thread at hand. But to respond to such trolling with a new thread warning to "watch out for these guys" with a title like this thread (which IS trolling) is rather petty and immature.

What is the point of this thread? Point fingers and neener at each other?

As far as the truth versus fable goes for 9/11, you need to ask yourself this. For those who did not believe the reported sequence of events, why do their own versions of the "truth" vary so much? You expect folks to blindly accept that our government murdered innocent Americans, based on these vastly difference opinions of what occurred?

Let's take the Pentagon. I've seen argued (and profusely in each case, mind), that many different things happened instead of the original story. I have people who can tell me they know without a doubt a missile is what hit the building. I have others that will explain to me that there was no plane at all, but a simple explosion that was set off. Others will say it was a different plane. Others still that there was a "flyover", as the took the jet somewhere else to off the passengers, and they set off an explosion. No bodies, planted bodies, planted plane parts, parts from a different jet. And on, and on....

Now, you seriously want me to believe there was another scenario, when no one can agree what it even was? You are SO sure of your version of the event? Why are there so many versions? Why can't people answer very simplistic questions about the event?

"Why would they even bother "planting" light poles. Why didn't anyone notice them taking them down, or sitting alongside the road before the attack? Why complicate a planned attack with things that add nothing to the story, but risk blowing it wide open?"

"*crickets*"

I'd be more than willing to accept an alternate story if it had actual legs to stand on.

And then you have blunt denial of lack of facts.

"People saw it fly into the Pentagon, you know."
"No they didn't."
"Yes, they certainly did."
"No, they are all wrong or lying. No one saw it fly into the Pentagon. We know, we've interviewed all the people."
"All of them?"
"Well half of them, almost. And of those, the few that we couldn't just discount for one reason or another, are all unreliable liars, we know this."

All I've seen so far, is guesswork, supposition, and exaggerations, to try and make some points. The items that they can't conveniently explain away are summarily ignored. That's not good research. That's very poor investigation. And no one imo, has proven a thing.


[edit on 7-3-2010 by fleabit]