911 Debunkers Take Beating on ATS.

Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

A reasoned response would commence an actual argument with rules and reason.A quarrel is what y'all bring and that gets no response or emotional one after the many unsuccessful attempts at reason.

You've made your position very clear in the past few weeks.That's one thing about truth,you don't have to REMEMBER what you've said as much as a liar has to.

A reasoned response is a response employing reasoning. Sometimes that reasoning is painful to those with hardcore, predetermined notions. It doesn't require mollycoddling someone through a protracted conversion so as not to invoke a petulant tantrum like the OP.

Disinfo agents are abound.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

A reasoned response would commence an actual argument with rules and reason.A quarrel is what y'all bring and that gets no response or emotional one after the many unsuccessful attempts at reason.

You've made your position very clear in the past few weeks.That's one thing about truth,you don't have to REMEMBER what you've said as much as a liar has to.

A reasoned response is a response employing reasoning. Sometimes that reasoning is painful to those with hardcore, predetermined notions. It doesn't require mollycoddling someone through a protracted conversion so as not to invoke a petulant tantrum like the OP.

Please explain how plants evolved from the same cell that created animals.

Originally posted by 911stinks


Please explain how plants evolved from the same cell that created animals.

Huh? I don't think this thread pertains to evolutionary theories. Perhaps you should read Dawkins.

reply to post by Shadow Herder


I doubt the OS. I see clear evidence of cover ups, and lies. I poured thousands of hours over the last few years into understanding the thing.

All I can say now, is that those who doubt, have become fanatical. In the process, they have lost the ability to recognize when their OWN arguments make no sense, or are contradicted with easy to cite evidence.

They don't hold themselves to the same standards of evidence as they do the government - and nothing makes me go nuts like the 'do your own research' refrain, as if that were any kind of acceptable response in an intellectual debate. Any utterance of that retort would have you laughed out of a freshman class in any university, and only discredits you as unserious to the larger audience.

Then there's this: nobody cares any more. The truth of this thing may never be known. William Peppers won two civil trials on the MLK conspiracy, and still, nothing happened. The public didn't even raise an eyebrow.

This is the epitome of 'sound and fury signifying nothing'.

You're better off simply focusing in the inconsistancy of the government's arguments, instead of pretending to be certain about bombs, controlled demolitions, israeli masterminds, or other such unprovable hypotheses. To insist upon them is only to assure your irrelevance.

Better uses of your time are many. Organizing boycotts against specific large multinational corporations... a much better place to focus energy is on boycotting large multinational corporations. Focus on creating local solutions - endeavor to unplug from the beast we ourselves feed while we rail against it.

Insisting on acceptance of the unprovable made you into fundamentalists, ignored like jehovah's witnesses at front doors.

Waste of time, people. And I speak from personal experience.

The trolls are going to be under every bridge that leads to understanding. The challenge is for you to develop a discrimination engine that notes key elements of their methodology. Fully 90% of these type of posts can be passed by without comment, and when you do bite back,you're under the bridge where they want you. The challenge is in analyzing the evidence of more sophisticated debunking.
With respect of 911, i note a crafty circular argument being used to discredit truth seekers. This was indirectly pointed out to me yesterday by a group of 5yr olds in a sandpit!. "Truthers" are told that the puzzle of 911 is clearcut and that if they have a problem then they must present another plausible theory. However, they are not allowed access to the puzzle to view the pieces. Truthers regularly respond to this bait... by proposing theories, only to be told that it does not fit the evidence, which they cannot view. Try if you can not to get drawn into this, fight for the evidence, for an independent review of the evidence... for access to the puzzle. When you have these pieces in your hand, it will be possible to build a brighter day.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Ya well I have studied STEEL for over twenty years.A person with a fuzzy notion can try to 'reason' all they want about how the WTC steel acted on that day,and if ONE element is WRONG I will not budge.Call me unreasonable?Whatever.You don't succeed at Blacksmithing or any welding through self delusion.End stop.Or for you trusters,period.

reply to post by TrueTruth

You're wrong mate.This is why there's no statute on these crimes.
The BEST part is when a OFT don't-wanna-think-about-it normal person finally 'gets it',the mute blinking,"Uh..Uh..Uh..."it's priceless.Worth every effort.

Originally posted by trueforger
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Ya well I have studied STEEL for over twenty years.A person with a fuzzy notion can try to 'reason' all they want about how the WTC steel acted on that day,and if ONE element is WRONG I will not budge.Call me unreasonable?Whatever.You don't succeed at Blacksmithing or any welding through self delusion.End stop.Or for you trusters,period.

It seems you're part of the problem I've been speaking of. That is, exhibiting an emotional response with immediacy. You beg reason from others, yet respond with emotion.

So far, much of the namecalling, assumptions and petulance in this thread have come from you. Perhaps you're taking online forums too seriously.

reply to post by trueforger


What am I wrong about?

What public outrage resulted from the King verdicts?

How is it you think you'll provide certitude for the public?

Shouting 'you're wrong' is exactly the kind of empty fanatical blurt i'm talking about. It's the blithe, uncritical bleating of a flock of the fundamentalist.

You are become sheep of a different wool.

The REAL truthers, remain cautious, awaiting further evidence.

This is a message board movement. It's already seen its peak. You just haven't faced that sad fact yet.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


exactly right, TD.

they even attack people inclined to agree with them, but who simply have higher standards of evidence, and a disinclination towards adopting a position of certainty that is simply unsupported by a specious body of evidence.

they shoot themselves in their own feet by allowing such fanatics to speak for the 'movement' - although from what i've seen over the years online, this is sadly more the rule than the exception.

like other cults, they rally around charismatic leaders (ie, a.jones), and believe they have become 'awake' to THE truth, and all those who do not see their way, are 'sheep'.

it's really, really sad.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Mebbe so mebbe not.Facts are what they are.You can say you know how to weld,for instance.I can look at what you consider a weld and tell you if you can REALLY weld.There really is no need for a further examination if there are fatal flaws observable.Some things really are that way.Murder and treason is what it is,no sugar coating will cover the stench.

It's like trying to explain machine tolerances to a carpenter.A soft wood mortise and tennon joint can be forced but not in steel.Fuzzy thinking can convince all but experts.We say ,"NO WAY."and won't budge unless shown FACTS.PS I said wrong,not specifically at you on this thread but as a limit on my BS parameters.Either side in this(excluding TPTB who know what happened and are hiding the evidences)must make conjectures to think about the topic at all,and sometimes it takes a 'hard swallow' to show something not seen before.Only name calling I read from my posts ic complimenting the professionalism of the postitutes by so terming their mighty efforts.How one can stick with so transparent and growing thinner by the day excuse for a mental construct is a feat worthy of a new appellation.Pros and Cons in one.


[edit on 7-3-2010 by trueforger]

reply to post by TrueTruth

Sad,but true,sad,but true,I had a tractor that sounded like that once.
Jones is charismatic because he is clear,articulate,in command of the facts,unswayed by fuzzy thinkin' yer thinking,and noise.Oh and he's correct.

Originally posted by trueforger
Jones is charismatic because he is clear,articulate,in command of the facts,unswayed by fuzzy thinkin' yer thinking,and noise.Oh and he's correct.

I take it you're speaking of Stephen Jones. I'd hate to pull the ad hominem here, but that same Jones also published a paper "proving" Jesus visited America. Let's just say he's no stranger to bizarre theories. I've read some of his 911 papers and found them to be dubious at best.

reply to post by trueforger



Jones is wrong more often than a broken clock. I think he's earnest, but also in the end more concerned with being believed than being right.

And all you just did by saying what you just said about him, is to underscore my point.

You have now become a sheep, under the spell of a charismatic leader, who you follow without questions.

BTW - being a welder makes you expert on the events of 9/11 much in the way that being a DNA researcher makes you an expert on metabolic diseases - which is to say, it doesn't. It's an 'appeal to authority' fallacy, and worse, to one who is NOT an authority.

Many, many experts have taken the opposite position.

Like I said - the overarching claims only hurt you by making you look fanatical.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Ya the Jesus in America notion is FAR more plausable to me than thinking He's in a million bread wafers because somebody says so,as believed all over the world today.At least Jones has a reason to back up even that claim.And what of it?He's still correct on the thermate.

Originally posted by trueforger
He's still correct on the thermate.

Well, he sure thinks he is at least. Again, I've read his papers and found them to be quite problematic, from the very first page onwards.

reply to post by TrueTruth

Oh really?Care to name any?Steel acts a certain way.The only parameters are type and fitness for duty.Trusters have actually posited the steel was somehow shoddy,fuzzy thinking.I do not only appeal to my supposed authority,look it up.Anything I say is researchable.Ya I'm your little sheeple.And you'd say it to my face then?"Cause NO ONE else has ever done that.Take yer beating.Quit defending TRAITORS and MURDERRS

reply to post by TrueTruth


Is it really the "doubters" of the OS who have become fanatical?
Is it these doubters that obfuscate every argument to deny facts?

MLKJr was a great man who said "a lie cannot live", and it wasn't the public that didn't raise an eyebrow, it was the media.
Can you really not see the real correlation, here?

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. - Martin Luther King Jr.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I've learned in life that some people derive huge amounts of pleasure from angering, frustrating, poking, prodding, inciting, aggravating, and plain pissing people off. It's like putting the small, weak man in uniform; he now realizes he has great power over others and becomes abusive with that power. Power & corruption seem to go hand in hand in MY world, I don't know about yours. I watch people that are able derail threads only because members "allow" them to...seems to me a great bit of childhood wisdom is often forgotten around here: ignore them, they'll go away. The internet forum provides many people with something they never had before; a chance to be heard and, with that, some find they have power over others...(and now start reading my paragraph over from the beginning).
I'd bet half the "chronic" OS believers here really don't give a rat's a$$ either way about the truth, they just enjoy the reactions to disagreeing with a truther even by spitting in the face of all logic, proof, and common sense. In fact, there's a very quick way to "set off" most anyone of intelligence...indignantly stand and argue for ignorance. The motto here is DENY IGNORANCE---ask yourself what that really means and you have found an the answer to all OS believers and why there is an ignore button on ATS.