Occultism/Satanism they are the same thing! Part 1

reply to post by On the Edge


Thank you so much On THe Edge. Yes I have bitten off I big chunk but I believe I can hold my own (with some help from above). I appreciate your words of comfort I am going to need them.

Melissa101

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

 

As you can see here is the original quote. "a huge amount of xtian thought as expressed on ATS afirms that xtian words and artefacts (like churches ) havwe the ability to relieve people of evil spirits."

Is this true?


[edit on 3-3-2010 by Tiger5]

I tend not to get too hung up on etymology and historical meanings of words. IMHO it is the contextual meaning that is more important.

Melissa,

How can you be sure that you are, in fact, speaking to the god you think you are when you are praying? How do you know that you aren't being mislead by some crafty evil forces? After all, demons are deceivers and corrupters, they are on a higher plane than we humans and they are well known for deceiving people into believing and worshiping them.

Personally, I would think God would know that the occult sciences are mostly about venerating the ultimate good and creator of all. God would understand the fact that magic is simply the art of worship and has been, and still is, practiced by religious leaders of both the Judaic and Christian faiths. If the Bible is truly the inspired word of God, as you believe, then why would he have included so much occult and esoteric material in them? Why would his own son, Jesus, speak as if he was an initiated member of an esoteric belief system?

I think it is you, and not I, who is being deceived by dark forces and led into the darkness of ignorance and "blind" faith. You should be very careful of who, or what, you are communicating with, perhaps if you studied the occult you would be able to tell the difference and know how to protect yourself from the darker forces at work in your life.

I am all for Jesus, but don't you think that this OP - that Buddhists etc. are all influenced by the devil or satan - is a somewhat narrow-minded explanation. I prefer more acceptance of others instead of judging - in feeling as well as thinking. This thought is pretty Theocratic in this stage.

A true Christian state of mind is when you do not feel the necessity to judge. (I am paraphrasing a famous first-centruy healer).
Yes, there are bad people, and some in the occult, and some sell their wares as honest religion.
But to mention Buddhism in your OP, for example, is tantamount to calling the Dalai Lama a satanist.
Which he is not.
Please allow for a difference between the Dalai Lama and people like Aleister Crowley.

The mysteries of the Christ start when you accept the adage:
"and I say unto you that ye do not resist evil."

As for me, I have this access to the center of the Universe (call it God or the Final Creative Unity), and others may have other ways. As honest Buddhists, Xtians and White Pagans all recognize, there are egotistic people and spirits out there (occult people as well as advertisers and politicians) who like to suck away people's energy with weird rituals and canned phrases etc.

Some people even hold the view that Jesus started out as a Buddhist. Buddhists would say Jesus is a boddhisattwa.
So Buddhism could be a "gateway drug" towards Christ...

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by JonInMichigan

 

... I suggest that you move on to a thread that is less upsetting to you? The reason for the thread is explained in my OP and in a couple of reply's. I honestly hope you find peace with yourself and your faith.

Hmmm…. I'm not upset at all. Calm and happy. Did it sound like I was upset? I didn't mean to give that impression. I was simply writing my thoughts on the topic at hand. I disagree with your theory that just since I am Folk/Earth spirituality based person that I am somehow connected to Satan. Perhaps defending my beliefs from being lumped in with Satanists sounds defensive or that I am upset, but I assure you that my words are nothing more than decisive and specific. Sometimes simply stating facts can come across as short or on-edge.

I’m still just wondering why Christians are always going out on attack of non-Christians. I mean, have you even studied any other religions to know what you are talking about? I went to Catholic school for 8 years, was an alter-boy and in the church choir. I moved away from Christianity at 14 yet went on to take 5 classes in Christian studies in college to further my understanding of the faith (and also to pick up my history and literature credits). I took classes in which we walked the bible book by book studying every nuance of the old and new testaments from a secular standpoint.

I also took a class called “History of Christian Thought” in which we studied all the early Christian thinkers (Tuturlian, Aquinas, etc, later Luther and so on) and the counsels where the individual books of the bible were selected and canonized (Trent, Nicea, etc) to the canonical bible. I must tell you, I would not have left Christianity if I felt there was anything about its dogma that wasn’t formed, shaped, and utterly messed with by man’s intervention.

So do you know anything in depth about your own faith or just what you hear on Sunday? Do you know anything about other faiths? Toaism? Budism? Wicca? Druids? Kabolists? Do you know anything about the history of religion and the stories that existed before the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)? Like for instance the Sumerian writings? Or the monotheistic period in Egypt while the Jews where enslaved which probably lead to them choosing to go monotheistic with Yahweh and their temple design? Did you know the first commandment says thou shall choose no other god before me? Not that the early Jews didn’t acknowledge that there were other gods, but they had picked “theirs” and were just going to stick with one.

I am constantly amazed by the pure unadulterated ignorance by most Christians of their own history and origins, let alone other faiths. But they are the first ones to start a thread damning all other religions to hell as they are all born of Satan. Isn’t that your theory? (Yes… I am being very calm and monotone while I write this, as I would not miss an opportunity to potentially cause a Christian to actually use their brain while attempting to trash my religion.)

On your second point, I have all the inner peace I could ever want, that's why I have been away from the Christian church for over 28 years now... because I'm happy. My wife was also a very devout fundamentalist Christian who spent her days walking around with a bible under her arm at all times. We both met at a witch gathering 7 years ago. We are happily married and have two kids. I expose my kids to both Catholic church services (my mother does this for me) and Pagan Rituals. I teach them honestly and openly about the world's religions so they can grow up to embrace their own spiritual paths.

You say, “I honestly hope you find peace with yourself and your faith.”

With Satanism? I thought you said all other religions, occult, ect are all Satanism.
So you want me to find peace with Satanism? Hmmm… you sound like you don’t even know what you believe.

First of all, Satan, was Lucifer a high arch angel and favored highly by god. Obviously Lucifer didn’t like god’s decision to keep humans ignorant of the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge. Lucifer believed in man’s free will so he helped things along by giving Eve the fruit. He also didn’t like the favor that humans had with god and got jealous that god was paying too much attention to us (so it says in Genesis). God kinda liked us like dumb pets, like dogs. Lucifer screwed it all up by exposing us to the whole free will thing. So I suppose your free will to even ponder the connections of the occult with Satanism is in-fact due to Satan. He gave you that free will to think about these things instead of walking around naked in the garden all day not thinking about these things. "traa laa laa laa"

So, as the story goes, Lucifer and God got in a giant pissing match that has been going on until this day. Lucifer got the title of Satan and Christian painters late in the game (renaissance+) started painting him with the attributes of Pagan horned gods as an effective PR campaign against Paganism. (Before that he was always depicted as very angelic and beautiful.) Satan became the cause of all man’s misery, yada yada.

God himself*(see note) said it was man’s free will that was his undoing, not Satan. But due to some really great negative PR everything is blamed on Satan now. It’s really tiresome. Christians need to learn their faith before they can attack others. I’m not joking. It’s really a pathetic situation and I can't just sit by with my mouth shut. What you will not find me doing is STARTING a thread to attack your religion… but I will certainly defend mine when someone does.

Jesus Rocks! (he would hate what his church has become, of that I am sure!)

* note: god of the Hebrew bible was neither a man nor a woman. It was Elohim which was a plural term. It was man's input later, in the quest to subjugate women, that made god male and singular. Remember, it wasn't until Moses that the Jews settled on Yaweh as their specific monotheistic god.

[typo]


[edit on 3-3-2010 by JonInMichigan]

Have people here heard of the XCtian Gnostics?

I do agree that many Occultists are a bit more enquiring and are not ones for easy answers. In fact many of us dare to go deeper into the subject of practical spirituality and self knowledge than many other religions. I find many other religions like very simple answers to life's great mysteries. I find that powerseekers never seem to last in western occultism. Also many of us seem to be uninterested in dressing up and looking like Goths.

T

There is a very simple answer that proves this entire thread false, and a hoax.

Occultism predates christianity, and therefore predates the idea of satan.

Therefore, by applying the smallest amount of logic, we realize that calling occultism satanist is nothing more that christian labeling, and propaganda.

Its the same reason the crusades took place.

"If we convince everyone that pagans/occultists/agnostics are heathens, they will be afraid to oppose us."

Satanism does not exist without christianity. Occultism does.

Thread-over.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
There is a very simple answer that proves this entire thread false, and a hoax.

Occultism predates christianity, and therefore predates the idea of satan.

Therefore, by applying the smallest amount of logic, we realize that calling occultism satanist is nothing more that christian labeling, and propaganda.

Its the same reason the crusades took place.

"If we convince everyone that pagans/occultists/agnostics are heathens, they will be afraid to oppose us."

Satanism does not exist without christianity. Occultism does.

Thread-over.

I could not have said it better! (or as concisely) Thanks! Star for you!

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by Solasis

 

If not from the God then who else is there ===== Satan. There are no gray areas. You have angels, demons, fallen angles but they all stem from the same place, one or the other. What do you think those symbols represent? Where do you think they come from. They are the same symbols from the same source. They have been used since the begining and will be used to the end. If you read the Satanic bible you just scratched the surface, it is much deeper and wider than that.

Here is the other HUGE problem with your thread. You flat out say there are only two choices-god and satan. You say there are no gray areas.

What about all of those faiths that predate your idea of religion?

Are you saying that Buddhism is satanism, because it isnt christianity? Are you saying the worship of the mother earth and all that she provides is satanism?

Are you seeing the problem with presenting something like this with such a narrow, closed-minded point of view?

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by On the Edge

 

Thank you so much On THe Edge. Yes I have bitten off I big chunk but I believe I can hold my own (with some help from above). I appreciate your words of comfort I am going to need them.

Melissa101

Hmmm.... I suppose Melissa101 is running off to the pastor or others looking for answers to the hard questions that intelligent people have put forth.

Unfortunatly they are only going to refer her to quotes in the Bible or suggest that she stay away from forums like this as they are placed her by Satan to challange her faith. Time for me to move on and let this thread die.

i still cannot comprehend how you came to the conclusion in your thread title, please enlighten me so i can give you adequate response

i am not satanic, but i lived with someone who was and for two months also i lived with a priest of the satanic church, not to mention my own involvement in the past, i'm reasonably endowed in information regarding such

i still practice what many would call 'occult' spiritual training, but the 'occult' part is all ninjutsu and ninja practice, steming from ancient japanese mountain sorcerers, people thousands of miles and thousands before satanism was even created, and satanism has lots of oriental and protestant b uddhist flavor but absolutely no ninja art what so ever. period.


like i said, please be more explanatory so i can understand how you came to that conclusion, because i'm quite sure it's not entirely 100% true.

thousands of miles and thousands of YEARS BEFORE ****

(sorry i have no idea how to edit a post!)

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by Choiseul

 

You are right the title I chose does not reflect this thread alone, but it will at the end. This is the history and the first element of the theory that Occultism and Satanism are the same thing. Along with Paganism, Wicken and I could go on but you get the point.


[edit on 2-3-2010 by Melissa101]

i am wiccan and take deep offense that you are comparing my religion to satanism (and i assume by satanism you mean evil).

firstly... Satan is a character in the CHRISTIAN mythology. seems convenient to create an adverserial evil character and then name everything outside your cult (yes chrisitanity is a cult) as belonging to this wickedness.

sorry i am not making much sense, and rarely do i lose my cool on ATS but when folk start calling other folks spiritual beliefs EVIL, based on nothing but that 2000 year old book...


i could go on, but i am going to pray to the Goddess to forgive folk with such beliefs, for they don't know what they're doing.

Originally posted by mythos

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by Choiseul

 

You are right the title I chose does not reflect this thread alone, but it will at the end. This is the history and the first element of the theory that Occultism and Satanism are the same thing. Along with Paganism, Wicken and I could go on but you get the point.


[edit on 2-3-2010 by Melissa101]

i am wiccan and take deep offense that you are comparing my religion to satanism (and i assume by satanism you mean evil).

firstly... Satan is a character in the CHRISTIAN mythology. seems convenient to create an adverserial evil character and then name everything outside your cult (yes chrisitanity is a cult) as belonging to this wickedness.

sorry i am not making much sense, and rarely do i lose my cool on ATS but when folk start calling other folks spiritual beliefs EVIL, based on nothing but that 2000 year old book...

i could go on, but i am going to pray to the Goddess to forgive folk with such beliefs, for they don't know what they're doing.

Yeah I made these exact same points.

Still waiting for a response. Betting that I am not going to get one.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


i concur...

so without getting too snarky on the OP; i have seen this type of evangelical statement in ATS land too often.

i am all for spiritual/theological debates, and this thread has some excellant scholarly perspectives (i have lost my ability to do as such 'cause i am irked)... however, when logic and respect are circumvented due to dogma, without sound principles to offer for debate, the whole topic is reduced to a sham.

i have yet to see a buddhist, hindu, 'pagan' (to lump indigenous cultural beliefs into one catagory), animist, shintoist, taoist, etc... i have yet to see those of these spiritual beliefs condemn whole other religions as evil...

because it doesn't make sense. actions are evil. not belief systems (unless, of course, your belief system centers on flaying puppies).

we all must be able to celebrate the infinite as our hearts and minds dictate to us... otherwise what is the difference between us and any other fanatic?

uggh... i'm preaching. lo siento.

God and Goddess bless.


[edit on 3-3-2010 by mythos]

reply to post by Melissa101



Melissa, even though I don't agree with the premise of your thread, I appreciate your attitude. It's refreshing. Really.

reply to post by Tiger5


I personally don't think that a piece of a building is going to have "healing" qualities. Now, if you want to talk about Lourdes or Guadalupe, we are dealing with a whole other topic. A piece of a church "healing" someone? I doubt it.

Ok. I couldn't watch the Feast calendar video in the OP at work and I just watched it at home.

It makes a big case that god's month starts with the new moon and follows the full lunar cycle through to the next new moon. It makes the claim that, "isn't it sad that the church doesn't use the original calander of god"...which was strictly lunar in nature.

I don't have to tell my pagan/witch/wiccan friends just how dumb this fact alone makes this post look.

Um...poster....um yeah....NEWS FLASH! We (pagans/witches) STILL use the lunar calander for our lesser religious "feasts"/rituals. So you have only reinforced that the bible was based on an ancient pre-christian belief system which we still use today, unlike the christian church.

Did I miss something here?

Next!



[edit on 3-3-2010 by JonInMichigan]

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by mythos

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by Choiseul

 

You are right the title I chose does not reflect this thread alone, but it will at the end. This is the history and the first element of the theory that Occultism and Satanism are the same thing. Along with Paganism, Wicken and I could go on but you get the point.


[edit on 2-3-2010 by Melissa101]

i am wiccan and take deep offense that you are comparing my religion to satanism (and i assume by satanism you mean evil).

firstly... Satan is a character in the CHRISTIAN mythology. seems convenient to create an adverserial evil character and then name everything outside your cult (yes chrisitanity is a cult) as belonging to this wickedness.

sorry i am not making much sense, and rarely do i lose my cool on ATS but when folk start calling other folks spiritual beliefs EVIL, based on nothing but that 2000 year old book...

i could go on, but i am going to pray to the Goddess to forgive folk with such beliefs, for they don't know what they're doing.

Yeah I made these exact same points.

Still waiting for a response. Betting that I am not going to get one.

I am sorry to offend you with my beliefs, it is not my intention. Please do not get me wrong, I do not believe people are knowingly practicing Satanism. It is just that some things have been so well masked I believe people with the best of intentions are following the Satan kind of blindly. I do not mean to judge or offend you or anyone else. I have no right to judge, I am simply explaining my beliefs. If you are a non-believer then take it with a grain of salt and move on. That is OK with me I have no control over what others believe nor does anyone have control over what I believe. If you would like you can continue to read my elements until they are laid out and you can see why I believe what I do. If not, no problem that's cool too. Your beliefs do not offend me, why should mine offend you?

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]