Occultism/Satanism they are the same thing! Part 1

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Like I said, a boogeyman, a scapegoat, a fear tactic. The Devil Made me do it. We'll blame some hideous goatman with a pitchfork who can invisibly influence the world before we'll take responsibility for the true source of evil, us humans.

Edit to Add: the reason we are evil is because were are the only organism that has consciousness, society, laws. Some other species have instinctual programming that makes them seem 'moral' and it started much the same way in our evolutionary history, instinct. When we gained written language though that's when the concept of morality really took off for us. And so we are the only creatures that the moniker of good and evil can be placed on, with the exception of fictional characters such as Satan of course.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by seattletruth
or even trying to imagine what God is like will constitute idolatry.

[edit on 2-3-2010 by seattletruth]

Yet, that is what the Abrahamic religions do by anthropomorphizing God. Are you telling us that the Abrahamic religions do not view God as having human like characteristics? Yes they do. Anger, judgment,contempt,jealousy. All of those things are human charateristics, not attributes of God.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by Solasis


If not from the God then who else is there ===== Satan. There are no gray areas. You have angels, demons, fallen angles but they all stem from the same place, one or the other. What do you think those symbols represent? Where do you think they come from. They are the same symbols from the same source. They have been used since the begining and will be used to the end. If you read the Satanic bible you just scratched the surface, it is much deeper and wider than that.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth


Spot on Speaker.

You cannot identify the Creator by applying attributes found within the creation. The Divine Creator is by definition beyond our understanding, as it exists beyond the concepts of our creation.

The Bible is full of esoteric material and much that is termed"occult" incorporates a lot of Judaism and Christianity. Jesus spoke in parables, if you weren't aware of the deeper meaning behind his stories you would think they were just nice stories and nothing more, this is what the occult is.

Jesus himself said: "For him with ears to hear, let him hear...", that alone proves that there is an occult or esoteric meaning behind what he is saying.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying the occult or practicing what you have learned.

Ignorance, however, is a sin

reply to post by Melissa101


Actually they all stem from the same place, not one or the other. There is only one supreme Lord and all things in creation serve its will. Even the devil plays his part. If it was not so the all mighty would not be infallible, which surely you must agree the divine is (as that is what all main stream religious scripture teaches).

reply to post by Melissa101


You and I may have some common ground. I will say this, Melissa, I have never seen you ever be disrespectful. That is a TRUE Christian quality and I applaud you for that. I am Christian in the sense that I do believe in Christ.

However, I am more spiritual than I am religious,so, I have been exposed to different beliefs over the course of my life. I think the institution of Christianity has, at least to some degree, merit. I just think that it has been, over the centuries, been hi-jacked by scoundrels.

reply to post by gYvMessanger


Thank you for the compliment, and I agree.

reply to post by Melissa101


No gray areas? We've got a whole spectrum of colors. Perhaps your God is the maximum of goodness, and your Satan is the maximum of badness. But that only means that God is lightness and Satan is darkness, to use the dominant paradigm. Light can be fractured into an insane number of colors. There are a variety of kinds of good, and they can get darker or lighter depending on how strong they are, how close to the ideal they are. Mix the kinds of good, and you get your Godly good.

More importantly, though, you missed the point of my post: Modern Satanism has nothing to do with Satan beyond metaphor.

I'd like to put a question to you, though: In your theology, where did Satan come from?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

 

Like I said, a boogeyman, a scapegoat, a fear tactic. The Devil Made me do it. We'll blame some hideous goatman with a pitchfork who can invisibly influence the world before we'll take responsibility for the true source of evil, us humans.

Edit to Add: the reason we are evil is because were are the only organism that has consciousness, society, laws. Some other species have instinctual programming that makes them seem 'moral' and it started much the same way in our evolutionary history, instinct. When we gained written language though that's when the concept of morality really took off for us. And so we are the only creatures that the moniker of good and evil can be placed on, with the exception of fictional characters such as Satan of course.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Wow, you didnt just miss the boat, you did not even know there was one.
Sorry, it just popped into my thoughts.

So you think that humans are by chance the only intelegent life that just happened to evolve past all other organizms? Yea Ok that is logical. Yes if yo are human you are evil, says so in the Bible.

Also Satan happens to be the most beautiful creature you have ever laid your eyes on. He is not red with horns or a tail or a pitch fork. That is what the secular world has put into your head. The most succesful plot Satan has ever had is to convince people he did not exist. I guess you bought it hook line and sinker. Sorry man I hope you open up soon.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]

Originally posted by Solasis
I'd like to put a question to you, though: In your theology, where did Satan come from?

If you want to go biblical, Satan was the most beautiful angel of the heavens.He was the "bringer of light." He was the "morning star," of the heavens.

Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."

Lucifer

reply to post by Solasis


Satan was one of the angels that was cast out of heaven with his followers. Without looking it up 1/3 of the angel population was decieved by Satan and cast out. Why do you ask?

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]

reply to post by Melissa101


Alright, that's what I thought. So, if God is perfectly good, and all that jazz, why exactly did he create Satan, who you are clearly calling the source of all evil?

reply to post by Melissa101


Deceived by Satan ? Firstly putting aside Lucifer and Satan possibly being two seperate beings. Wasn't the offence in question that Lucifer was unhappy with God for placing Man above his first children the Angels (of which Lucifer was a member). Isn't the fall traditionally held to have happened because Lucifer asked Why ? The question which led to the war in heaven ? It was a rebellion I didn't know he had to lie to get the fallen to follow him.

How could Lucifer's rebellion have been unplanned by God if he was a creation of God who knows all that is was and shall be ?

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Wasn't the offence in question that Lucifer was unhappy with God for placing Man above his first children the Angels (of which Lucifer was a member).

That's the way that I have always understood it. As a matter of fact"

1 Corintians 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Originally posted by Melissa101

 

Satan was one of the angels that was cast out of heaven with his followers. Without looking it up 1/3 of the angel population was decieved by Satan and cast out. Why do you ask?

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]

Actually, Satan doesn't figure in the Enochian story of the fallen angels. If I remember correctly, their leader was Shemjaza. If you doubt the validity of Enoch, was the grandfather of Noah and the reason why Noah was saved in the flood. The story is also corroborated in Genesis with the short passage on the Nephilim

Shemjaza was one of the Grigori, which means Watchers.

reply to post by Melissa101


I didn't say we are the only beings with consciousness because it is "logical" but because it is obvious and clearly evident. When was the last time you heard two birds discussing the meaning of life? We are the only lifeforms on this Earth with consciousness.

It was Lucifer who was beautiful, many would argue that Satan and Lucifer are two separate entities, I imagine you think those people are wrong... but therein lies the issue, the people who believe that would think you were wrong and at the end of the whole debate no one would be closer to the truth. In the end it would be a fruitless debate about interpretations of a fictional mythological being.

Yes the Bible says we're evil, but that is because of two airheads in a Garden who decided listening to a talking snake (there is also debate on whether the snake was Satan, Lucifer or a separate entity altogether) and an airhead deity who haphazardly plants the wrong tree right in the Garden he made for his new pet humans and then, in a further bumble by the almighty he forgets to give these beings a sense of right and wrong so they don't know they are doing anything wrong when they take the fruit. Then, rather than own up to his mistake God instead decides it a better idea to damn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to be born into sin and burn in hell (unless they are redeemed). I think the Bible's version is a little silly.

We're evil because we invented the idea of evil, this is why good and evil have fluctuated so much throughout the ages. Want an example, just read the Bible, see how evil the God of the Old Testament was and yet they still called him good as he went around slaughtering kids in Egypt and ordering the Israelites to wipe out whole groups of people (GENOCIDE). Then look at the concept of God today, he's a pretty nice guy today right, merciful and with infinite patience and love...


[edit on 3-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]


[edit on 3-3-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by Shadowflux


Do you know which version thats in ?

gYvMessanger and Solasis;

Satan was created by God because the Bible states that God created the Heavens and the Earth, so I can reasonably assume he too created everything that is in the heavens just like earth.

Satan rebelled against God because he was 1. Jealouse of humans 2. He thought he was smarter than God and 3. He wanted to be God. He formed a gollowing of other angels to fight God and his angels. Do we have all they the details of why, and how. No I suspect we will learn of them when we are dead. For example I think there is a reason why God put humans above Angels, we are not told why (or if we are I have not read it yet which is very possible as I do not claim to know everything). I believe Satan is clever but he could not understanf God's plans or intentions so I cannot imagine we could eitherm at least not untill God wants us to.

reply to post by Shadowflux


What you say is at least semi-true:

en.wikipedia.org...

The name 'Shemyaza[z]' means 'infamous rebellion', the combination of 'shem' [meaning 'name' or 'fame' [whether positive or negative]] + 'azaz' [which means 'rebellion' or 'arrogance' as a negative particle]. Michael Knibb lists him as “the (or my) name has seen” or “he sees the name”

...

Some suggest that Samyaza is most likely another name for Satan (Heb: 'the adversary'), who was originally an entity created in the service of God; he was the caretaker of God's throne, but later fell from the heavens because of his pride according to some Abrahamic traditions. Jesus states that he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning in Luke 10:18. The name Samyaza could be read as, 'infamous rebellion', rather fitting since he was originally the most powerful angel in heaven but went on to rebel against God.

Others say that Samyaza should not be mistaken for another name for Satan, who some believe was "cast out" from the heavens because of his refusal to worship Man, the newly created image of God, as written in the Qur'an (7:11) and the pseudepigraphical Gospel of Bartholomew (IV:54-56). [2] This interpretation points to Rev. 12:9 and Gen. 6:4 as depicting two separate falls from heaven, one of Satan being cast down, the other of the sons of God choosing to come to earth to take human wives.