Occultism/Satanism they are the same thing! Part 1

Originally posted by Melissa101


I am sorry to ofend you with my beliefs, it is not my intention. Please do not get me wrong, I do not believe people are knowingly practicing Satanism. It is just that some things have been so well masked I believe people with the best of intentions are following the Satan kind of blindly. I do not mean to judge or offend you or anyone else. I have no right to judge, I am simply explaining my beliefs. If you are a non-believer then take it with a grain of salt and move on. That is OK with me I have no controll over what others believe nor does anyone have controll over what I believe. If you would like you can continue to read my elements untill they are laid out and you can see why I believe what I do. If not, no problem that's cool too.

1) I am not offended. I am appalled by the sheer ignorance.

2)You failed to address my previous point.
How can you possibly quantify something as satanic, if it predates christianity, and therefore the predates idea of satan?

Satan was born of christianity. Therefore, without christianity, there is no satan. How can you possibly justify calling those things that have been around longer than, and lend no credence to christianity, satanic?

3) I will not take it with a grain of salt and move on. These types of completely false, inflammatory and rhetorical lies have been pushed for centuries.
"Just moving on" is the reason that they still exist today.

If I created a thread that said specifically 'Your religion is the worship of satan', would you just let it go and move on?

Simply laying out your beliefs, when those beliefs are that all others are negative, doesnt cut it. You better be prepared to back it up, or be prepared to be considered an ignorant fundy with no worldly view.

Originally posted by Melissa101
Your beliefs do not offend me, why should mine offend you?

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]

When your belief is that you are right, and all others are satanic and evil, it makes clear a couple of things:
1)You ARE offended by what i believe. Labeling it 'evil' or 'satanic' proves as much.
2)Your belief seems to be less about what you believe, and more about being against what others believe.
3)You have no concept of life outside of your specific belief.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Melissa101


I am sorry to ofend you with my beliefs, it is not my intention. Please do not get me wrong, I do not believe people are knowingly practicing Satanism. It is just that some things have been so well masked I believe people with the best of intentions are following the Satan kind of blindly. I do not mean to judge or offend you or anyone else. I have no right to judge, I am simply explaining my beliefs. If you are a non-believer then take it with a grain of salt and move on. That is OK with me I have no controll over what others believe nor does anyone have controll over what I believe. If you would like you can continue to read my elements untill they are laid out and you can see why I believe what I do. If not, no problem that's cool too.

1) I am not offended. I am appalled by the sheer ignorance.

2)You failed to address my previous point.
How can you possibly quantify something as satanic, if it predates christianity, and therefore the predates idea of satan?

Satan was born of christianity. Therefore, without christianity, there is no satan. How can you possibly justify calling those things that have been around longer than, and lend no credence to christianity, satanic?

3) I will not take it with a grain of salt and move on. These types of completely false, inflammatory and rhetorical lies have been pushed for centuries.
"Just moving on" is the reason that they still exist today.

If I created a thread that said specifically 'Your religion is the worship of satan', would you just let it go and move on?

Simply laying out your beliefs, when those beliefs are that all others are negative, doesnt cut it. You better be prepared to back it up, or be prepared to be considered an ignorant fundy with no worldly view.

I fail to see that if you so not believe then why do you thjink Satan or Satanism is evil. It should mean nothing to you. There have been threads that state that Christianity is evil. I am called many things and I ignore them and move on, it is irrelevent to me what others think of my beliefs and it should ne to you to. I stand firm in my belief of God and Jesus and I was told by Jesus in, John 15:18 - If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you, and also Luke 21:17 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. So I am used to it and expect it but it does not bother me.

OK guys part 2 is up. I will not be returning to this thread to answer questions. But I will see you in part 2. Thanks for all the responses; good and bad, I learn from all of them.

Originally posted by Melissa101

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Melissa101


I am sorry to ofend you with my beliefs, it is not my intention. Please do not get me wrong, I do not believe people are knowingly practicing Satanism. It is just that some things have been so well masked I believe people with the best of intentions are following the Satan kind of blindly. I do not mean to judge or offend you or anyone else. I have no right to judge, I am simply explaining my beliefs. If you are a non-believer then take it with a grain of salt and move on. That is OK with me I have no controll over what others believe nor does anyone have controll over what I believe. If you would like you can continue to read my elements untill they are laid out and you can see why I believe what I do. If not, no problem that's cool too.

1) I am not offended. I am appalled by the sheer ignorance.

2)You failed to address my previous point.
How can you possibly quantify something as satanic, if it predates christianity, and therefore the predates idea of satan?

Satan was born of christianity. Therefore, without christianity, there is no satan. How can you possibly justify calling those things that have been around longer than, and lend no credence to christianity, satanic?

3) I will not take it with a grain of salt and move on. These types of completely false, inflammatory and rhetorical lies have been pushed for centuries.
"Just moving on" is the reason that they still exist today.

If I created a thread that said specifically 'Your religion is the worship of satan', would you just let it go and move on?

Simply laying out your beliefs, when those beliefs are that all others are negative, doesnt cut it. You better be prepared to back it up, or be prepared to be considered an ignorant fundy with no worldly view.

I fail to see that if you so not believe then why do you thjink Satan or Satanism is evil. It should mean nothing to you. There have been threads that state that Christianity is evil. I am called many things and I ignore them and move on, it is irrelevent to me what others think of my beliefs and it should ne to you to. I stand firm in my belief of God and Jesus and I was told by Jesus in, John 15:18 - If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you, and also Luke 21:17 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. So I am used to it and expect it but it does not bother me.

1)It's called history. Because of christianity's affinity for these kind of inflammitory statements and accusation, the people who i share beleifs with are far and away the single most persecuted people in human history.

I dont believe in your satan. That has not stopped your people, historically, from slaughtering mine.

So yeah, it's something I feel is important to speak out about.

2)Again, started a thread to flat out call what i believe evil is not something that i am just going to shrug off.

3)I will ask for a third time, since you are avoiding the question:

How is it possible to justify calling something satanic when it predates the very idea of satan? Or for that matter, how can you call something satanic when it doesnt even acknowledge that satan exists?

I have now asked this 3 times. If i receive no answer this time, it is quite obvious that you HAVE no answer for it.

Originally posted by Melissa101
I am sorry to offend you with my beliefs, it is not my intention. Please do not get me wrong, I do not believe people are knowingly practicing Satanism. ... Your beliefs do not offend me, why should mine offend you?

[edit on 3-3-2010 by Melissa101]

i am reiterating what "captainyinknots" has already said, but i feel it is necessary.

why should your beliefs offend me? because you say i am unwittingly worhipping satan?!?!? that's why! you are implying i am a) ignorant and b) giving my energy to something that is evil.

how dare anyone tell me that in my depths of my communion, as i hold vigil with the divine is i understand it to be, is foul.

how dare anyone tell me i am being mislead by the devil as i kneel before the alter of my choosing!

my communion with the divine infinite is life's gift to me! it as succored me through tragedy and illness, and has radiated me in bliss and joy!

for my vocation in this life, i serve at risk youth as an instructor and counselor. i pay my taxes. i love my family, my friends... and my connection to spirit... and you tell my i am misguided?

i have studied religion my whole life, have a minor in religious studies, and the pathworked alter i have found is what speaks clearest to my heart.



a "cult" is a closed belief system. a belief system that allows for no other.

you tell me how my belief system is Cultish, when it is open minded, incorporating all those who celebrate life (including our dear agnostic friends).


i have not succumb to ire as this before on ATS, and tot he OP i am not hostile towards you... i am baffled by your logic and hubrice. a hubrice based on nonsense.

to the mods... i will chill myself out, and my future posts will be of a more theological bent and less of a passionate diatribe.



peace to all who seek it with an open heart and mind.

Well Melissa

I see that you have now gone on to part 2 of your exercisewhich has the same title as this thread. I take issue with your title.


I smell a big rat and will not be joining part two of your exercise. I don't know what your game is as you are not keen to go into any details.


I don't know what others think.

Originally posted by Solasis
reply to post by Melissa101

 

Alright, that's what I thought. So, if God is perfectly good, and all that jazz, why exactly did he create Satan, who you are clearly calling the source of all evil?

It all comes down to "free will"... which is the only way the true purpose "love" could ever collectively manifest itself in ways which, much like a fish out of water, we here in this place and in these bodies cannot truly/fully comprehend.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
How can you possibly quantify something as satanic, if it predates christianity, and therefore the predates idea of satan?

Is not "Satan" or "Lucifer" synonymous with "evil" ? I'm pretty sure that while specific names may not have always existed, the essence of what such names attempts to convey, has... and that's evil.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by spectre76]

reply to post by spectre76


Free will is all fine and good, but it does not explain Satan. How is Satan necessary for free will to be properly free? Would we not have free will without Satan's existence?

Originally posted by Solasis
Free will is all fine and good, but it does not explain Satan. How is Satan necessary for free will to be properly free? Would we not have free will without Satan's existence?

The way I see it, God could never have truly loved us if he didn't "let us go" first off... then into a dimension governed, in a major way, by free will... temptation... happiness... sorrow... pain... pleasure... good... evil.

This is the only way for the elect army (those proclaiming their love for the creator and their desire to not be corrupted by evil) to be identified in the end for the great battle, of which, we are in the process of becoming increasingly familiar with... and have been since the beginning of our evolution.

This is fundamentally a battle over the oppression of "love". It would seem to be the case that it simply isn't allowed here! Throughout history it is easy to see that anyone aligning themselves with this simple message is sooner murdered/martyred than allowed or encouraged to thrive. We talk a good talk... but at the end of the day we all fall short... the system falls short... We are here in the flesh to learn the ways of good/evil or love/hate in the temporary so that we may have love eternally.

This is where I find language rather limiting, in trying to convey a very eternal message with eternal meaning... meaning that is suddenly lost on people because of such words as "lucifer" or "satan" or "love". As it turns out, it's not very easy to explain "love" let alone prove it even exists... while we all know it does!

Originally posted by Solasis
Would we not have free will without Satan's existence?

That is an interesting question... and one I at one point spent a great deal of time contemplating. I eventually determined MY answer...

See how tender is God's Love for Satan? 'For us? God, knowing in advance all of Satan's (and our) thoughts, made him (us) anyway. God, knowing in advance what would bollix Satan (us), in essence gives him his own world to rule his way -- so he can come to learn that his (our) idea of what's right, is in fact hellish. 'For him, for the fallen angels, for those ruled. In short, human history is an illustration of hell, a foretaste of what living apart from God is like. The potential lesson from human history is, essentially: life with God is innately sublime, and life apart from Him is innately burning pain.

Further still, God's root contention is that any method of making rational creatures results in some type of "hell", so the only alternative to "hell" is not to create anyone. Had God made rational creatures so that they couldn't go to hell, as Satan contends God should have done, one of the following "hells" would result:

a) Say God made angels/humans without free will (i.e., with no souls). He thus prevents sin, so no Lake of Fire, but then the rational creatures are like computers, Stepford wives. Isn't that hellish? They can't love, since love requires free will; enjoyments are but programmed instructions, so no integrity. In fact, such beings would not even be persons! They would be pets, at very best. Isn't that hellish? So, to prevent a Lake-of-Fire future, POWER given them would have to be less, not more; KNOWLEDGE would have to be less, not more.

b) Say God made angels/humans with limited free will. There are two variations of this b): First, "Free will" would only be free to the extent it can choose among non-sin options. There would be no "tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil", for example. So there would be no awareness of sin (awareness is an essential component of free will), and no ability to reject God in any way.

Link to article cited: here.

A highly recommended read, by the way...

[edit on 3-3-2010 by spectre76]

reply to post by Tiger5


Tiger, I understand. I completely disagree with her premise as well. However, she seems to be searching. Honestly....

Do you not find it incumbent upon yourself to help? As far as I can tell, I haven't seen where she has been derogatory, which is unusual in and of itself,so, please, don't be so harsh.

Well if Christians didn't go and call little pagan children devil worshippers and tell them they were evil or their parents were possessed stuff like this would be harmless.

See that happened to my child a year or so back, and he was devastated over it.

But heck, when I was his age, we were playing UNO at school in homeroom and our youth director said UNO was satanic - he thought that anything you did that wasn't about his Jesus crap was satanic - and his Jesus crap was just that, crap, and as a child, I thank divine providence I saw through all the bible thumping to the real evil and I left that "oh he's a preacher, she's a fine christian woman, I'm looking for a CHRISTIAN daycare for my child" religion.

No more listening to music backwards for me.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by hadriana]

Originally posted by hadriana
Well if Christians didn't go and call little pagan children devil worshippers and tell them they were evil or their parents were possessed stuff like this would be harmless.

I liked the wording here... So I'm quoting the source already provided...

Christians are the choicest hawkers for Satan's message, and throughout history we Christians have long had special grooming by our demonic handlers.

:source:

[edit on 4-3-2010 by spectre76]

Occultism/Satanism are very real, Stay away from those things

They will devour your soul/spirit.

You don't believe me? I will prove it to you then. Get an ouija board, mess around with it

And uhh make a thread and provide constant updates, I will see how your sailings will go

reply to post by Kingdom of darkness


TO compare a Xtian with a decent occultist is like comparing Betty Crocker's shake and cook pancakes to to any cake made by a chef. The chef can always get their heads around how to make a shake and cook pancake but the hapless cook that only understands to add water to a packet just doesn't understand the chef and makes all manner of comments about how unnatural it is because it is against the rules of the packet.

When it comes to ouja boards they should be avoided purely on the basis of risk the same way that a child should never play with a gun.

Sadly I thought that I would have some semblance of dialogue with some people who I was once a part of... Of course the bigotry and puerile book-based arguements just keep coming. I will not be taking part in the other parts of this daft exercise. I don't know what the game is but I smell a rat.

Mel sweety why don't you go and read about occultism and stop being so lazy. Might I suggest wiki?? It is after all an electronic book.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Tiger5]

reply to post by Kingdom of darkness


That's only with people who don't know what they are doing.

reply to post by PennyQ


I starred you, Penny, that was very well said. Mellissa, the real reason you, as a Christian, was taught what you said was true, that Satanism and the Occult were one and the same, is so that you, the Christian Soul, woman of the Church would never study or asttempt to learn this knowledge. Christianity has went a long way to hide this knowledge, even to the point of book burnings and people burnings.
The fact is, the study of Esoteric Knowledge, the Occult, is a way to find out who, and what the Gods are, and to know them personally. It is also a Balance to Religion, and I have to say this, we have to always maintain a BALANCE in everything. Evil defines Good, and one cannot know what Good is, until they know what Evil is, they cannot experience one, without experiencing the other.

Direct Mystical Experience is not the same as Intellectual Knowledge.

Direct mystical experience is totally different to intellectual knowledge. This is the key reason why meditational practices are kept "secret". With mysticism we are dealing with higher realities that are very difficult to describe accurately in the language of this world. As such symbolism may have to be used. Some of this may for example appear in the Buddhist text of the famous Surangama Sutra, or the classic Tibetan Book of the Dead. What we are trying to say here is that mystics do not want to confuse esoteric experience with intellectual knowledge. The former is strictly speaking for the awakening intuition, and not the mind.

Moreover, from a traditional esoteric viewpoint inner visionary "ascents" in meditation are seen as proof enough that "greater realities" exist. Indeed, it has been argued why it is we should continually theorise about such things as reincarnation, pre-destination, subtle bodies, higher, and lower beings, et al when their existence can be proven "beyond doubt" by "going within"? This kind of mentality though is not totally suitable for the Western mind.

www.kheper.net...

Trying for whatever reasons to spread meditative instructions to everyone is wrong, and ridiculous. Many people would think such knowledge was madness, or rubbish. Thus, the need to keep it largely to oneself. However! Once known, it is never forgotten, and one is then able to rise above that which is a ruled slave to be a Free Spirit than is able to go forth into the world, and do as they will, harming none. Giving, and accepting no "worship, from anyone, for the word originally means "to work for," and I work for no being in that manner.

On Christ.

The men known as the Christ are many.
Was there a Jesus? Of course there was a Jesus – many!

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty-eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4).

The real guy you all read about in the New Testament is a complementation of several, and I think you all know that a man from this part of the world does not look like the popular artwork we see on the walls of Christian homes all over America. The really sad thing is, the ones who say the follow Christ do not act like he acted, and they don't talk like he talked. He did not start any religion, in fact I think he loathed the established Hebrew Religion of the time. He placed Women and Children first and foremost, and gathered no riches to himself. He lived simply, and went about talking and trying to educate everyone. Did it work? NO!

Originally posted by autowrench
He lived simply, and went about talking and trying to educate everyone. Did it work? NO!

You sure about that? Here were are... over two millennium later still having the same old debate. Did it work? I think when you separate out all the bs from the substance, it worked rather well indeed! It is the eternal message of love. You're right in saying that Jesus wasn't white and didn't have that British nose often depicted. If nothing else, it's his words that should not be overlooked.

reply to post by spectre76


Yes but the Xtian message at the level that you are mentions is not wholly Xtian there are other religions that also preach peace. Some of the most peace people that iknow are actually practions of the occult (just to try to bring the post back towards the OP).

I think that the saddest thing about this post is that she knows nothing apart from the opposing factions view. She is blatantly and unashamably Xtian. I see no evidence that the entire series of OPs is nothing more than an exercise in rhetoric and not debate.

[edit on 5-3-2010 by Tiger5]

Originally posted by Tiger5
I see no evidence that the entire series of OPs is nothing more than an exercise in rhetoric and not debate.

Unfortunately, I agree. I was especially pleased to find out that my time was wasted once this thread was ditched and picked up elsewhere at which point after reading the first page of Part 2 I quickly determined I'd just be moving on and wasting no more of my time talking to myself. So, on that note... thanks for taking the time to respond. Cheers!

I hereby declare this thread dead...