Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

reply to post by Long Lance


Please join the list of , because your obviously not getting it either. Sad when people just can't see the simplicity of whats being spoken without twisting it.

reply to post by zatara

I read some of the comments and for some people it is very hard to understand what a woman does mean when she says no.

Some people are searching for an excuse that will justify to rape a woman...what is that all about?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show us anywhere in this thread where someone said that NO doesn't mean NO. Or show me anywhere in this thread where someone is searching for an excuse that will justify raping a women.


PLEASE do this...give us the quote...give us the page number and the member's name.


If you can't do this...then yes, please leave this discussion.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Give up.

For the first pages this discussion was awesome, and full with respect with the people participating in it.

Now is just stupidity poring in, with people not even caring to read the full extent of what is/was said.

I personally gave up when the words "stupid" and "idiot" started being common.

[edit on 16/2/10 by Tifozi]

reply to post by Long Lance

i mean where are y'all going with this thought? that the woman should punished for negligence or the offender's sentence reduced?

Wow...I just don't understand how you come to that conclusion. Did anyone say that anywhere? How do you jump from people trying to promote personal responsibility to we want to let the rapist go free? HOW do you do that...I mean you have to willingly lie to yourself to do that.


A few of us are trying to advocate personal responsibility...and people are just freaking out. How dare us try to tell you to take responsibility for your own actions/decisions.


Maybe this thread should not fall under the "deny ignorance" moto of ATS...maybe this thread should be categorized as "willful ignorance" and "nothing is ever my fault".


My head is hurting from this brick wall.

reply to post by rcwj1975


make lists all week long if you wish, i think it's going to be quite a long one, btw.

i think the posts speak for themselves, even though i do not believe yours are particularly questionable. it just seems to this dense poster that a couple of you are comparing apples to oranges with a vengeance and constantly shifting goalposts.

rape, no rape, 'remorse' rape, false rape accusations, which is it? what about the public's perception, according to this poll? nada, zilch, just dress codes, sluts and alcohol intoxication.

why?

you want these issues to be the subject of the thread, but by the title it is not. asked differently, what should a woman do to avoid being targetted and how reliable or effective do you think these countermeasures would be?

==================================

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher



Wow...I just don't understand how you come to that conclusion. Did anyone say that anywhere? How do you jump from people trying to promote personal responsibility to we want to let the rapist go free?

go free? that's hyperbole, i said reduced and it's a valid question because you can't have it both ways, if the woman gets her share of blame, the attacker's is automatically diminished. in car accidents, for example, partial responsibility for the crash will void or diminish your insurance coverage, reduce compensation or even result in a fine you'll have to pay.

it's only logical.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Maybe this thread should not fall under the "deny ignorance" moto of ATS...maybe this thread should be categorized as "willful ignorance" and "nothing is ever my fault".

that's again a stretch, one can avoid things that can be controlled, but this does not include predatory individuals, if this thread was about murder, you'd probably understand that.

[edit on 2010.2.16 by Long Lance]

We should also reduce sentences for drunk drivers running people over. I mean, pedestrians should just KNOW not to go walking outside after 7pm. Obviously people have been drinking.

Take some responsiblity for not putting yourself in front of the drunk driver!

reply to post by Long Lance


You still didn't give ONE example of anyone saying this.

We have repeatedly said PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY...not CRIMINAL/LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY.

If you can't see a difference...then I'm sorry.

I have been in a car accident before where it wasn't LEGALLY my fault because the person blew a stop sign...but I still held myself partially personally responsible because I did notice them coming very fast and I should of not gone into the intersection...but I did. So LEGALLY it was not my fault...I didn't get a ticket...the other driver did. But PERSONALLY I knew I could of avoided that accident. That doesn't mean I think the other driver shouldn't of gotten a ticket...it just means I know I CONTRIBUTED to the accident.

If you can't see this difference...then I would suspect that everything negative in your life is caused by someone else.


So please...go give me an example of me or someone else saying that the rapist should have a reduced sentence because the women may be partially PERSONALLY responsible for putting herself in a bad situation in some cases.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

Originally posted by Aeons
We should also reduce sentences for drunk drivers running people over. I mean, pedestrians should just KNOW not to go walking outside after 7pm. Obviously people have been drinking.

Take some responsiblity for not putting yourself in front of the drunk driver!

No one is saying this...if you want to make this claim then please go find an example in this thread of someone saying that rapist should have their sentence reduced.

It's arguments like this that cause discussions of difficult things such as rape to not take place. You lash out with a ridiculous and baseless claims...and it will end the discussion because most people will not discuss things with irrational people.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

So please...go give me an example of me or someone else saying that the rapist should have a reduced sentence because the women may be partially PERSONALLY responsible for putting herself in a bad situation in some cases.

Well, what sos37 is saying could be construed that way.

Again, I would love for a court of law to look at every rape case objectively, without emotion and look at the events leading up to the incident INCLUDING what the woman was wearing.

Now before you lock 'n load, I'm not in any way saying a woman deserves to be raped if she dresses like a tramp. But I do think the courts should look at everything that happened and look at all the facts including the attire in which both were wearing. Not so much to assign a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but to issue a statement in the case something like "in this case, while the accused has been found guilty, it needs to be noted that the victim is not completely without blame, for the following reasons...", or something to that affect.

To me, dress alone doesn't give an attacker the right to argue against full culpability. Dress + Actions or actions alone, does.

And again, since some people seem to take this out of context, I'm not saying Dress + Actions gives an attacker the right to attack - I'm saying Dress + Actions should be considered by the court when determining the fullness of responsibility for the attack.

I apologise to sos37 if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like a plea for mitigating circumstances in a court of law.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by jeanvaljean]

reply to post by jeanvaljean


I can't speak for sos37...but I did address that post of his...here is my reply:

And here is where you and I differ. Because I would say nothing gives the attacker the right to try to justify what he did. But I also think, in SOME situations, women need to realize they put themselves in a dangerous situation themselves.

And he replied to this:

Hang on there, I am NOT arguing the justification for rape! Go back and read my posts. I am arguing shirking responsibility versus taking responsiblity for your own actions.

So I'm not exactly sure where he stands. But I still don't see him saying the rapist should have a reduced sentence because of this. I disagree with him that any of that should be introduced into the court...but I still don't think he is saying that the rapist can be excused or justified because of it.


Now...can any of you find a post where I said something along these lines???

[edit on 16-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

Originally posted by Dock9
The study, which was compiled from data obtained from rape clinics, reports that more women than men blamed the victim

Does this mean that men (or women) know what they're talking about, when it comes to rape ?

If anyone wants to know where the disinformation/misogyny begins in this thread, here is the exact post in which the OP of this thread (who did obviously no research into the subject,) posts a huge LOAD of disinfo.

The study, as I pointed out earlier, was conducted ONLINE (for the fact it was the cheapest method), and only 1000 responded.

So, the study was NOT COMPILED of data from actual rape victims. It was CONDUCTED by a rape crisis center.

HUGE difference.

The OP purposely began a thread on the topic of rape, and how **women** claim they are at fault. The OP took this position too, by assigning levels of blame to the victims. The OP used the tabloid rag's story to bolster OPs theory that women have responsibility for their rapes.

(unless it was a rapist waiting inside your home, and as you open your door, you are brutally raped, any other rapes are apparently the rapes OP refers to as the woman's fault.)

As the OP the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. Yet from the get go, the OP is posting flat out lies and using those lies as a foundation for the misogyny and blame the victim that follows.

The OP is using this flawed survey to promote the blame the victim, by taking as gospel all of the respondents are who they say they are. Because this was an anonymous survey, we cannot know if any women AT ALL really responded.

When the OP was started, there was nothing in the post to imply the thread was a debate about false claims of rape, or sluts, or women who wear sexy clothes.

That so many posts on this thread contain blame the victim mentality is very sad, because as I see it, there was only one reason this thread was started, and that was as a platform to promote misogyny.

That so many posters are sucked into the misogyny so easily (ie by taking the OP as gospel, vs. digging a bit deeper)(laziness supreme) is disgusting, and what a shame.

I cannot be the only here who has figured this out.

When I see such blatant disinformation in threads, I KNOW there are underlying agendas for the threads.

Don't believe me? Here are some of the threads started by the OP, that follow the agenda:



www.abovetopsecret.com...

**Girl who cried rape after sex in public toilet walks free from court

www.abovetopsecret.com...

**Goa's tourism boss links sexual assaults to bikinis

This thread.

There is another thread in which the OP posts of Muslim Honor killings, only to use it as a platform for white supremacy.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Any society is only as strong as its weakest link and the evidence points directly to the disintegration of white society as result of fundamentalist muslim migration which has been foisted upon host nations by traitorous, zionist-controlled governments " _ The OP.

Disinformation.

Its whats on the agenda for dinner tonight.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


You do know that the OP is female and has been raped....right?


Go back and read page 9.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

So please...go give me an example of me or someone else saying that the rapist should have a reduced sentence because the women may be partially PERSONALLY responsible for putting herself in a bad situation in some cases.

i asked a question, maybe a leading one even, because simply put i don't get why women's dress, alcohol abuse and lack of discipline (all anecdotal to be sure, but what gives) is so relevant in the context, that it keeps getting repeated very half page or so.

what are you all getting at with that argument if not telling the victims to look in the mirror because they invited it?


Thanks, Jeanvaljean

Again, I would love for a court of law to look at every rape case objectively, without emotion and look at the events leading up to the incident INCLUDING what the woman was wearing....
...
Not so much to assign a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but to issue a statement....

err, what? a statement? this is awfully analogous to the 'apology' ritual of PC and it should only be considered the edge of the wedge, tbh. either it's a 'personal' thing or it isn't, a court of law is public, obviously. over time, such statements would of course suffer from mission creep, just like everything else does and the intent is of course to relativise, depending on the victim's preceeding action or inaction, which in turn opens a can of worms, because what constitutes negligent conduct and what doesn't is ultimately a subjective matter and open to debate. if that's what you want, i'm sure Saudi courts could accommodate you already and that's my real issue with these posts.


personal responsibility is everyone's own business and violent assault should result in a trial before a jury, that's what the courts are for, after all.

again, i'm not sure, what if you think should happen when you consider a woman personally responsible for inviting rape, so the concept isn't very clear to me.

If you can't see this difference...then I would suspect that everything negative in your life is caused by someone else.

i don't know what my real or hypothetical narcissm has to do with the subject at hand, but i can only conclude that a thorough dose of black&white thinking went into this statement. i had the tenacity to declare that certain aspects of your life are beyond your control, therefore, i believe everything is inflicted upon me, did i get that right?

PS: i believe the real issue is that the prevailing mentality is based on the better-them-than-me paradigm, resulting in sheep-like reflexes in the face of danger. threats of ludicrous litigation against anyone who intervenes certainly don't help either, but the underlying trend would still show i think, which i briefly addressed in my first post, that societies no longer function as such and more and more people are becoming indifferent or evasive to the point of self-distruction.

Source #1

Source #2

Police have 15-year-old Anferney Fontenet in custody after they say he raped a mentally challenged woman in broad daylight on the side of a busy street.

of course, this affects everyone and a lack of effective prosecution combined with timid indifference gives predators of all kinds the opportunity to do whatever they want, eventually. heck, it might even become the cool thing to be a thug, and let's see

www.abovetopsecret.com...

random strangers participating in a gang rape? if this is even remotely true, it's almost proof that the problem goes deeper, that the social de-facto norm is embracing violence as a normal tool for daily use. from there it's only a few steps to literal hell.

===============================================

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

You do know that the OP is female and has been raped....right?

yes, we do and the prospect is somewhat upsetting, tbh, but it doesn't change the looks of this thread, does it? observed

objectively, without emotion

this thread is full of more or less subtle bias, imho, no matter who wrote it.

[edit on 2010.2.16 by Long Lance]

You do know that the OP is female and has been raped....right

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Women can be mysoginistic, too.

Exactly how is it different.

You know people drink. You know people drive. We all know it is illegal.

But it happens. When that guy slams his car into your daughter - well she damn well should have known better than to walk around after 7pm.

Guys get off work, and want to let off some steam. Naturally, they go drinking and have some fun with the buds. And because they sometimes make bad decisions, he gets in his car. Its WRONG. He shouldn't.

But damnit, a guy needs some blow off steam time! Everyone KNOWS guys do this!

Have some sense. She should just know not to go out. She knows, you know, everyone knows. If you CHOOSE to put yourself out there and get hit, well you and she should just take responsiblity for these irresponsible actions of putting yourself in harms way.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by Aeons
We should also reduce sentences for drunk drivers running people over. I mean, pedestrians should just KNOW not to go walking outside after 7pm. Obviously people have been drinking.

Take some responsiblity for not putting yourself in front of the drunk driver!

No one is saying this...if you want to make this claim then please go find an example in this thread of someone saying that rapist should have their sentence reduced.

It's arguments like this that cause discussions of difficult things such as rape to not take place. You lash out with a ridiculous and baseless claims...and it will end the discussion because most people will not discuss things with irrational people.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

You do know that the OP is female and has been raped....right?


Go back and read page 9.

This thread continues to trouble me. Hotbakedtater's post did not question the validity of the OP's opinion, she is simply pointing out that common strains in her posts seem to point towards disinfo.

I think the big question here is: if you are a rape victim, is your opinion more informed or more "important" than the opinions of men and woman who have not been raped?

I will leave that question to the board. I believe that ALL of our opinions here are valid, even if they are uninformed. In my opinion, as a rape victim, and a member of several rape support groups that my actions did not lead to the crime perpetrated on my body and soul. The OP's opinion differs. One thing we know for sure is that women's psychological response to rape is to place some amount of blame on themselves. Isn't that an important statement to this thread? I would like to direct a question to the OP: have you ever sought out help? If you have, you might find that the reasoning for your opinion is a very natural psychological response to the crime perpetrated on you. I mean absolutely NO disrespect in asking this question, we are all sisters and survivors.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by MarlboroRedCowgirl]

reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl

I think the big question here is: if you are a rape victim, is your opinion more informed or more "important" than the opinions of men and woman who have not been raped?

I have monitored this thread closely, posted some....because as a rape survivor its near and dear to my heart.

As a survivor, I don't think my opinion is more informed or more important. I do, however, think my experiences allow me to contribute to the discussions from a different perspective. And seeing things from different perspectives allows us to make a more informed judgement.

reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl


What is troubling is how some members actually call other members "rape supporters" because some of us agree the animal rapist is looking to sieze a moment that the victim gives him. They are confusing that VERY SIMPLE THING with. "oh my god your saying its her fault...which is complete BS...but for some reason they won't accept that they are wrong.

If the guy in the car is a stranger that you find hot, and he was staring at you all night and asks you to go home with him....and your girlfriends are like, NO come with us, and you say NO I am going with this guy, YOU ARE making it easier for the pig to rape you...is it your fault..NO, of course not...but these guys look for the chance to do their deed with the least resistance....that would be you going home or to a hotel, or back road with him....all the members on here are saying is DON'T get in the car, and if you still get in the car, BE CAREFUL.....how the hell that is misconstrued as your fault, or we sympathize with the pig....I will never know...

Originally posted by smyleegrl
I do, however, think my experiences allow me to contribute to the discussions from a different perspective. And seeing things from different perspectives allows us to make a more informed judgement.

Agreed,,,,just as mine is too. When you arrest, interview, and interrogate rapists (the guys who actually physically rape), it gives you an entirely different perspective. Not to mention interviewing victims.

Agreed,,,,just as mine is too. When you arrest, interview, and interrogate rapists (the guys who actually physically rape), it gives you an entirely different perspective. Not to mention interviewing victims.

reply to post by rcwj1975


Absolutely correct. I've followed your comments here, and they are full of insight and advice.