Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by Dock9



+++++By the same token, if you go to places where men congregate and where liquor is served ... and if you indicate by your attire and behaviour that you want men's attention ---- there's a strong chance you're going to have sex+++++++

So you DO admit men are uncontrollable piggish animals who WILL RAPE if a woman dares dress in what you term SLUT CLOTHES. And are these sluttily dressed women who are so obviously asking for trouble being raped or having sex? tay on topic, its about rape not rough sex.

+++++If you go to the same venues but do NOT deliberately dress and behave in a manner which will invite unwanted sexual advances --- there's a good chance you'll make your way home safely and without incident at the end of the night++++

Absolute nonsense. Clothes do not make a man rape, period.
'Real' women know that and behave accordingly

+++++Idiot-women (and there are plenty) want to believe they can play with fire without being burned++++

Name calling, now added to disinformatiom. Gee.



+++++Further: Re: the terms of Breaking Alternative News, I was required to copy the news headline word for word, i.e., 'Rape ? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 percent of women'+++++

Too bad you failed to read and vet your article, and thus posted blatant disinformation on the first page of the thread. You cannot use false information to bolster your point, it is bad debate form. Kills your credibility as well.

+++++'New's is a competitive business which fights to gain maximum attention --- very much in the way 'Sad Excuses for Women' deliberately set out to attract male attention which they often later whine about++++

And we have yet another throw away insult from this OP. Yet another misogynist statement.


+++++If the thread topic instead had said something along the lines of:

50% of women say sluttish behaviour prompts rough-sex which is mislabelled as 'rape' ---- it may well have been greeted with half a dozen posts saying basically, ' Duh. Tell us something we don't know '

Good grief, do ever focus on anything other than sluts? What defines sluttish behavior anyway? How sad that you claim to be female and show so much vitriol to your own sex.

Furthermore, I sure dont need the person who began this thread with disinformation capping it for me.

I also wont see things your way. I dont agree with it.

I think ANY time excuses are tossed around about rape, then we have major misogyny going on.

If you want to talk about men being raped, start a new thread about that.

I am gonna get hayfever soon with all the STRAW MEN floating in this debate.

reply to post by LadySkadi


And if that is what you want to do...that is fine by me. But SOCIETY...not me...is still going to call that behavior slutty.


Tell me this...do you or most females you know WANT to go out and sleep with as many guys as you can? Is that a goal for most women? Is it something that makes you proud?

Because I can tell you right now that the large (very large) majority of men want to go out and sleep with as many girls as they can.


So is it something that you and other women WANT...or is it something that you and other women think you should be able to do just to be "equal" to men???


I don't understand the equality thing anyway...men and women are different...and those difference are good. Women naturally do some things better than men and men naturally do some things better than women. And I am happy for that. No one should say one is better than the other...but I can't figure out why it is bad to say we are different. This isn't just for humans...it is all over the animal kingdom. The things that males/females do better aren't the same from species to species...but in most species (can't say all because I don't know about all species) there are definite gender roles.

Ladies, lets take back that silly word slut.

I dont know why people toss it around so much.

S= Strong
L=Ladies
U= Uniting
T= Together.

Because that what female rape SURVIVORS are, no matter what they wear.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher
First of all, I want to say that I completely agree with this. Well said.

I don't understand the equality thing anyway...men and women are different...and those difference are good. Women naturally do some things better than men and men naturally do some things better than women. And I am happy for that. No one should say one is better than the other...but I can't figure out why it is bad to say we are different. This isn't just for humans...it is all over the animal kingdom. The things that males/females do better aren't the same from species to species...but in most species (can't say all because I don't know about all species) there are definite gender roles.

As for what others choose to do, who they choose to sleep with and why? I have no idea and I'm not speculating. All that I am saying is that women have that choice. What they choose to do with that choice is personal and on them. And I support that.

Good grief again! The thread is about RAPE not man and woman equality.

*achoo.

I for one am glad men and women are different, it IS how our species stays alive.

reply to post by hotbakedtater

I am gonna get hayfever soon with all the STRAW MEN floating in this debate.

I'm not sure you understand what a straw man argument is. I've seen you use it multiple times and never correctly.

Straw Man Argument: A misrepresentation of an opponents position

So...which position of yours is anyone misrepresenting?


The only straw men I see here are the ones from you and others that keep claiming we are "defending rapists", "making excuses for rapists", or "blaming women for being raped". Sound familiar?

There's another thread current on ATS, involving a woman (claimed bisexual) who as it later transpired, was captured on cctv kissing, etc. with a young boy

The girl later accused the boy of rape

The boy's story differs to that of the girl

The girl went online and allegedly claimed she intended to apply for monetary compensation as a 'victim of crime'


Had there been no cctv footage --- had the police not learned the girl intended to profit from her rape claims

... that boy would now be in jail, serving up to ten years

His reputation would be destroyed

His future would largely have been destroyed

The scheming little liar who cried 'rape' would have been a 'poor victim', rewarded for 'her ordeal'



I note that not many who're protesting so loudly here about the fact 50% of women blame women for alleged rape ---- are steering WELL clear of that other thread


edited to add the link:

Girl who cried rape after sex in public toilet walks free from court

www.dailymail.co.uk


Sarah-Jane Hilliard, pictured last summer, claimed she'd been raped after a night out but a jury found her guilty of perverting the course of justice. Today she was given a 12-month jail sentence suspended for two years


A woman who accused a student of rape after dragging him into a public toilet for sex was spared jail yesterday.

Bisexual Sarah-Jane Hilliard, 20, seduced Grant Bowers when the two bumped into each other during a night out clubbing.

ATS link to thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 16-2-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


If you cared to read the article linked in the OP

you would see that sluttish behaviour is cited by the 50% of women polled who believe some 'rape' victims are responsible for their claimed ordeal


So if you have a problem with that, I suggest you direct them to the women polled, or the news-source itself, rather than attempt to blame and attack the ATS messenger

reply to post by Dock9


Ill tell you EXACTLY why I steer clear of it.

You began this thread with disinformation.

That ruins credibility.

And, you are displaying misogyny.

The constant sexual cut downs of women in general (how many times have you used the word slut in this thread?)

Actually comparing being raped to standing in the middle of the road.

Trying to act like those of us who feel there can be NO EXCUSE for rapists (not even the clothes excuse) are "not getting it".

I get it, for all the reasons I stated above. As far as I am concerned, deliberately misrepresenting the survey your misogyny is based on qualifies you as a troll IMO.

I am not misrepresenting my opinion, it has remained steadfast and the same.

And I am not starting threads about "sluts" with disinformation as my lead in.

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

If you cared to read the article linked in the OP

you would see that sluttish behaviour is cited by the 50% of women polled who believe some 'rape' victims are responsible for their claimed ordeal


So if you have a problem with that, I suggest you direct them to the women polled, or the news-source itself, rather than attempt to blame and attack the ATS messenger

I wish I could, but you posted an entire thread about this based on an online unscientific and unreliable ONLINE SURVEY of god knows who.

Are you aware there are Prisons that allow internet access? How do you know the survey you base this thread on wasnt responded to by inmates?

It is not up to me to PROVE your thread for you. You are the one dragging tabloid disinformation, and purposely misrepresented it to bolster what ever agenda you have.

I attack the messengers dis-informational and misleading ways, not the messenger itself.

This response is DIRECTED to you because YOU STARTED THE THREAD.

I have posted in that fashion on every board I have been a member on. OP posts thread, people weigh in.

I am merely defending my POV, which is what a debate means.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Do you mean disinformation like this:

Trying to act like those of us who feel there can be NO EXCUSE for rapists (not even the clothes excuse) are "not getting it".

Because all of us have said multiple times there is no EXCUSE for rapists. But we also say in some cases women need to take some personal responsibility for knowingly and willingly putting themselves in dangerous situations.

But YOU continue to misrepresent our views *cough* disinfo and strawman *cough*

Originally posted by riley
Yeah alright now post an example wear she is wearing "modest" evening wear. She is obviously not an event where jeans are allowed.. she is wearing STREET clothes and I doubt very much that she was about to walk through a ghetto wearing that evening gown.

If she did walk through a ghetto dressed like that and happened to get raped, would you still think her style had nothing to do with her being chosen as a target?

------------------------------------

cm1.theinsider.com...

Look how elegant and beautiful this person looks without flashing her T&A in everyone's face.

www2.pictures.fp.zimbio.com...

Look at the difference of clothing style of these women. Notice how some have purposely dressed to emphasise their assets. It has nothing to do with wanting to look good or show one's sense of sexual freedom.

------------------------------------

They showed just as much cleavage 300 years ago (more with corsets) so your argument that women are less modest these days is almost as silly as you comparing jeans to designer dresses.

How often did rape occur 300 years ago? Was there as much sympathy towards victims of rape 300 years ago? Did women walk around alone and never experience danger 300 years ago? You are comparing apples to oranges and you know it.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Human beings, with all other mitigating circumstances and bee-ess excuses aside, do things for one of two reasons:
1) Because they WANT to.
2) Because they HAVE to.
The question is - why do men rape?
Because they can get away with it (this falls under reason #1)
All other excuses are B.S.
Oh, she was wearing a revealing outfit...so look away.
Oh she was coming on to me (uh-huh)..so say NO, go somewhere. Rape to me is an example of poor impulse control and sorry but this does not demonstrate to me virility and or masculinity. It demonstrates that such a man is not capable of making sound choices and I would not want him to be the one making choices for me, much less my family.
As for the women...well, we are taught from the time someones shoves a baby doll in our faces to care for everyone else and not ourselves; to be the emotional glue, the fairer sex and all that idiocy and to blame ourselves for someones else's impulsive, unnecessary and dangerous behaviors. Maybe the Eve thing?
Please, Adam made a conscious choice like all the other men after him.
Real men don't need to commit rape, they can obtain sex on their own merits.
Real men can control their impulses and act as grown up as they wish to be treated.
Trust me, I love men as much as the next woman, but I also feel that I have an unblinking, clear view of historic cultural conditioning as regards gender and how this unfortunate conditioning can affect a simple night out on a date. This is something I have to be aware of BECAUSE I'm female and for no other reason. I have to be able to accurately as possible assess my date and be able to detect any disturbing behavior, because my life may depend on it.
That is generally something men do not have to concerns themselves with visa versa.
I'm being really very liberal here, as I believe that males are violent and possibly sexually deviant by nature. Too much proof of this, anectdotal and otherwise.
Now, wouldn't logic dictate that one does not allow another who is unable to control their impulses to be in a position of power....?
Hmmmm....way I see it, I was not born into this world to be a prey animal.
There are a lot of nice fellas out there but they need to realize that the rape/violence issues may one day serve to marginalize males as a whole in the greater scheme of things later on.
Power is an illusion, whether as an individual, group or sovereign nation....beware the blindness it bestows....

I agree. Instead of using the word "slut" which is a predefined trigger word for misogyny in the minds of some women, let us use something more neutral shall we?

How about this: "People who dress in clothes that force others to notice their presence, people who talk and joke in a sexual nature with members of the other sex, people that drink more than they should and send sexual messages towards people of the other sex, people that taunt and chastise members of the other gender about their sexual freedom and right to behave like this." No, these people do not AT ALL increase the chance they will be taken advantage of by behaving like this...

Are we clear on why people use "slut" instead of writing this explanation out every time?

Now, the thread topic is about why 50% of women in a survey believed rape is somewhat the victim's fault. People come in here and discuss reasons why this might be the case and are flamed as rapist apologists and/or misogynists. This is ATS, not some Feminist forum where any insinuation that women should take responsibility for their actions is labelled "misogyny".

Do you honestly think any of these issues will be fixed if we continue to be caught up in the Blame Game? Many realise this is a touchy subject and are not trying to harm or hurt anybody that has been effected directly or has family or friends that have been affected.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


No I meant disinformation by the OP claiming the survey was based on rape victims from a rape crisis center, thus trying to misrepresent those surveyed as actual rape victims from the center.

In reality, the rape crisis center conducted an online survey of 1000 persons. They have no way to ensure that the 1000 were all rape victims. It is unscientific, and in no way can legitimate statistics be garnered from such a method. (eta and they claim it is a cheap way to conduct a survey).

That is what I meant by disinformation.

So my use of straw man fits.

As awful as some of the attitudes are against women in this thread(I am not surprised someone had to introduce the Rough Sex idea into the mix)(slutty clothes) (tramps) (asking for it ans should assume some personal not legal responsibility for her part of the rape if she is dressed slutty), that alone proves there is NO ROOM for misrepresenting the FACTS about rape in ANY form.

Rape survivors have it hard enough as it is.

I have been very clear in what I have posted.

What a shame that this important topic is derailed by disinformation and slutty clothes.



[edit on 17-2-2010 by hotbakedtater]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by riley
Yeah alright now post an example wear she is wearing "modest" evening wear. She is obviously not an event where jeans are allowed.. she is wearing STREET clothes and I doubt very much that she was about to walk through a ghetto wearing that evening gown.

If she did walk through a ghetto dressed like that and happened to get raped, would you still think her style had nothing to do with her being chosen as a target?

What? It is a designer evening gown NO woman in her right mind would risk damaging a dress that would cost 10G to buy. Regardless if a guy is stalking a woman late at night he wouldn't be able to see her breasts anyway and she would be just as much a target as any other woman walking through a ghetto late at night buy herself. Neither outfit would make her more prone to being raped your example was very foolish.

cm1.theinsider.com...

Look how elegant and beautiful this person looks without flashing her T&A in everyone's face.

www2.pictures.fp.zimbio.com...

Look at the difference of clothing style of these women. Notice how some have purposely dressed to emphasise their assets. It has nothing to do with wanting to look good or show one's sense of sexual freedom.

So a couple of women show cleavage and bare shoulders and you think they are being immodest? No.. they're just wearing evening wear and are actually dressed very conservatively. What.. do you think they should have been wearing burkas when accepting their awards? Do you think rapists were waiting outside because their clothes sent them into a sexual hate frenzy?

Incidentally one of those ladies has publically admitted to being bisexual and having an open marriage. She has actually attended public functions with her lover and not her husband. Guess which one she is? I doubt you would as you seem to have some very ignorant ideas about sexuality.

They showed just as much cleavage 300 years ago (more with corsets) so your argument that women are less modest these days is almost as silly as you comparing jeans to designer dresses.

How often did rape occur 300 years ago? Was their as much sympathy towards victims of rape 300 years ago? Did women walk around alone and never experience danger 300 years ago? You are comparing apples to oranges and you know it.

Oh.. so now rape victims 300 years ago asked to be raped too did they? :shk:
Your arguments and the examples you have given of immodesty are ridiculous. You may as well argue that women who wear wedding gowns are asking to be raped by the guests. Stop being silly.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by juniperberry
I wouldn't go so far to say that women are responsible for their rapes, but they do have to take some responsibility to ensure their own safety.

I agree with you here. There are plenty of rapists out in society, and wearing skimpy clothes will surely attract their attention a lot more.

It's not just the nice guys who's heads will turn. At the end of the day, if a woman flaunts her body to attract men, they're more likely to get a man who just wants their body.



[edit on 17/2/10 by NuclearPaul]

reply to post by NuclearPaul


Be careful NuclearPaul...you are going to be accused of "defending rapist" or "justifying rape".


Not be me...I agree with your common sense post...but others will call you a misogynist for saying that because they think women should be able to wear whatever they want and not be marked as an easy target by scumbags. They also don't think me or you should tell them that if they were skimpy clothes that they WILL be seen as an easy target...because then we are "defending rapist".


I know what you are thinking...and yes...it appears we have stepped into opposite land where those of us trying to give out sound advice are being called rape defenders.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


It's an OPINION poll...as are almost all polls. Nothing scientific about any of it. You can go about selecting a sample population in a "scientific" way for a poll...but a poll is just a poll...it is never "scientific".


And regardless of the source or the poll...obviously there are people on this thread that are of the same OPINION as those in the poll...whether it is an accurate poll or not.

So you can continue on trying to discredit the source or the OP...but the fact remains that the same opinions you are trying to discredit in the poll are showing up here in this discussion.

So why continue to waste time saying the source isn't credible and pretending that these opinions don't exist???

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by NuclearPaul

 

Be careful NuclearPaul...you are going to be accused of "defending rapist" or "justifying rape".

I agree with NuclearPaul too.

A ripe apple cannot choose it's picker.