Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I would just like Tokio or Riley to respond to the multiple examples men gave about putting themselves in a dangerous situation.

Generic example: Guy walks through a known high crime area flashing a rolex and wads of cash. Guy get's robbed.

Would you say it is partially their fault?

Did he make a smart decision? Do you think he is partially PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for being robbed???

You can't equate robbery to rape my friend, that argument is moot.

They are two VERY different crimes with two VERY different consequences.

~Keeper

Then I guess it isn't worth discussing if we can compare NOTHING to rape. So it will continue to not be discussed...and what good will that do???

And I'm not comparing the two crimes or their consequences...I'm comparing the actions of the victims and their decisions.

You are taking the cowards way out by just declaring that it can't be compared. You are avoiding the question...that is all.

The issue here is does youth and fertility (aka sexiness?) factor in a rapists motivation. IOW is there a biological factor in a rapists decision. Not all rapists have the same motivations, but that doesn't mean a biological factor can't be involved in many.

If you say yes, then things that enhance sex appeal may increase the risk - and that is the dilema here.

If you say no, then you're saying rapists cannot be motivated by lust (in part at least). That is another issue which is problematic.

One of the biggest pieces of advice we give women in our classes is this.

For those who go "out" and do the club thing, the bar thing, etc....yes self defense is good, mace is good, handgun is good, stay in groups is good, not leaving with strangers is good, safety calls (calling a gf at certain times to check in IF you do leave), etc...are all good measures, but the main thing we teach is to simply ask yourself IS what I'm about to do, where I'm about to go, and who I am going with worth it?

To those who have a lot of male friends, since we all agree MANY rapes happen with those you know, use your intuition. When a male friend makes a pass at you, keeps bringing up sexual topics, seems WAY over protective of you, or ever makes you take a double take, it may be time to talk to him about it. In my experiance the male friends who have raped had given clues over time that they were into or become interested in you or making your business theirs.

Bottom line, BE CAREFUL and if something does happen, tell someone RIGHT away, as that makes our job MUCH easier to go find his a@@ and send him to concrete castle.

Originally posted by rcwj1975
reply to post by riley

 

Normally you give pretty good posts but with this last one has proven you don't get it and for whatever reason like to sterotype....

I do in fact "get it".. just becase I do not agree with you does not mean I do not understand you.

I don't know what happened to you in the past or what this topic does,

Wow.. making speculations about my past and indirectly asking if I have been raped etc. Some real nice form there!

but I have done more for women and the tragedy of rape then you ever will...so as to your condsending attitude I am done trying to give you the TRUTH to a very sick REALITY....and it appears you want nothing to do with the truth....

Done more for women/rape victims than I ever will? Thats a very strange declaration to make given you just finnished telling me you don't know anything about my past..

I love how you also tell me YOU know the truth and reality and I don't. Kudos to you of having more of a grasp on whats real than everyone else.. Stephen Hawking must be so envious.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

reply to post by rcwj1975


For the record...I think you are giving sound advice and I am really having a hard time why you are getting push back about it.

It's not like you, or any of us, are telling them we are happy women get raped...it is actually quite the opposite. We are all just trying to make them aware of decisions that put them in a potentially dangerous situation. We aren't trying to trick them or degrade them...at least I am not.

This is a good example of where intellect fails to serve a person and a societies best interest. It is easy to think that "a person has the right to dress and behave as they like". Yes, but nature is nature and what someone might think of as their freedom is not necessarily an attribute that is kind and responsible to others or healthy for the society. People are often driven by breeding impulses and women, in particular, are endowed with natural understandings of what it takes to achieve reproduction. The mind is a terrible, terrible liar and, unfortunately, driven by strong impulses, people actually do things they can't even remember they did. Most women are also naturally endowed with a strong competitive breeding instinct. They know how to apply themselves to maximize their chance of success.

Now males are subject to the minds misdirection and breeding is a strong impulse for them as well. This results in a male that can be driven to believe or rationalize lies in his head just as well as a woman can.

Now you can add to this the brainwashing and social promotion of exhibitionism as a virtue and you should begin to see the real situation.

Do you notice how war and lust are tools to get Alpha males managed or weeded out of the society (via death and prison)? Alpha males, the doers have always been a threat to the NWO.

While the Burka is a far extreme, the bottom line is that modesty and appropriate distance are not stupidities but responsible compassion that uphold purity. Purity is another of those words like "Conspiracy", "UFO", "Satanic", "Family", etc. that the NWO has turned against humanity for one reason or another.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I apologize, I did just refute the question didn't I?

I agree that woman have a responsibility to be aware of their surroundings and attempt to prevent themselves from being made targets, however, it's not like we can expect women to be at the whim of all the male a-holes who choose to rape.

This is a slippery slope. Do I believe that women are to blame? Not one bit, because at the end of the day, it's not rape if she asked for it. It's on the men who CHOOSE to commit the crime.

Wrong place, wrong time most certainly applies to these women however, and I believe we should be putting more effort into getting rape victims to come forward and put these basterds in jail.

~Keeper

Originally posted by riley
I do in fact "get it".. just becase I do not agree with you does not mean I do not understand you.

I could care less if you agree with me, but to purposfully say men in general and many of us on this board are approving a rape by clothing style is NOT right. Also saying that we as men are allowing rape to continue and somehow teaching it, or advocating it as acceptable is ludicrous.

Wow.. making speculations about my past and indirectly asking if I have been raped etc. Some real nice form there!

It is definitly speculation, but SOMETHING has to trigger blaming men EVERY SINGLE post...and not just that SOME men are scum...you instead tie us all together...maybe you just hate men, but either way...what justifies your generlization? NOTHING?

Done more for women/rape victims than I ever will? Thats a very strange declaration to make given you just finnished telling me you don't know anything about my past..

Ok maybe you have done a lot, but again you overlook that in my 9 years of law enforcement I have locked up for life men who prayed on women....those women can now sleep at night...so for YOU to continue saying us MEN must teach this stuff, or we accept it, or make excuses for it is BS....

I love how you also tell me YOU know the truth and reality and I don't. Kudos to you of having more of a grasp on whats real than everyone else.. Stephen Hawking must be so envious.

Your posts tell me all i need to know about how much you understand the realities of whats going on EVERYDAY across the globe. As for the Hawkings comment...apparently thats a solo joke because I sure don't get it...

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I would just like Tokio or Riley to respond to the multiple examples men gave about putting themselves in a dangerous situation.

Generic example: Guy walks through a known high crime area flashing a rolex and wads of cash. Guy get's robbed.

Would you say it is partially their fault?

Did he make a smart decision? Do you think he is partially PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for being robbed???

Mm, I wouldn't consider this situation the same as wearing flashing clothes and getting raped.

I think the rape equivalent would be if a girl (wearing any type of clothes) walked alone into a room full of known rapists. In that case I think it would be her fault for going there but not her fault that they are rapists. However, this is not a normal everyday situation. But that has nothing to do with her clothes.

If I guy purposely went to a high crime area and was flashing then I suppose he would partially be to blame. His fault for going there not but his fault they are criminals. But even if he's not flashy there is still a high chance of getting robbed.

However, rape and robbing are two different things. Someone might rob you for money to pay the bills. But you don't get any gain from raping someone.

Though, both situations are unnatural. Someone would not purposely be flashy in a crime area (unless maybe their a high gangster with body guards) and a girl would not purposely walk into a room with rapists.

In the real world that rich guy might just like flashy watches and doesn't know the area has a high crime rate. And that girl might like mini skirts and doesn't know the guy in the corner is going to rape her.

However, middle class guys get their watches and laptops stolen and non-flashy girls get raped by people they know.

To be honest, I think it would be much harder to rape a girl who dresses 'provocatively' because those girls tend to have bad attitudes. The modest invisible girl would be much easier. Doesn't attract attention (no one will notice when she's gone), quieter, no major attitude. Probably has never been in a fight before so doesn't know how to fight..

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
For the record...I think you are giving sound advice and I am really having a hard time why you are getting push back about it.

It's not like you, or any of us, are telling them we are happy women get raped...it is actually quite the opposite. We are all just trying to make them aware of decisions that put them in a potentially dangerous situation. We aren't trying to trick them or degrade them...at least I am not.

I appreciate that and have agreed with much of your points being made as well. I am not worried about people disagreeing with me, thats what ATS is about.

I fight for women all the time to CATCH their rapist...thats what makes me frustrated that women on here want to act as if I and others are supporting rape. I can't put into words the joy I get when i put handcuffs on a man who raped a woman. Especially when i have DNA or other trace evidence that I know the jury will destory the man.

I LOVE the feeling of seeing a woman who has been trumatized finally be able to wake up and enjoy her life again because we did everything we could and caught the SOB. I look at it this way...when I get married (someday..lol) I never want my wife to have to endure that truma...so i will do everything in my power to help rid the streets if these vermin.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by rcwj1975

 

For the record...I think you are giving sound advice and I am really having a hard time why you are getting push back about it.

It's not like you, or any of us, are telling them we are happy women get raped...it is actually quite the opposite. We are all just trying to make them aware of decisions that put them in a potentially dangerous situation. We aren't trying to trick them or degrade them...at least I am not.

That is not what they have been doing. If I go out I do so with friends and we keep an eye on eachother. I may dress attractively/sexy but I pay attention to my surroundings and I do not let strangers touch my drink. If someone managed to spike my drink anyway and dragged me out and raped me that would not be my fault. People can try avoid any type of crime.. that is called using common sense but covering up will not prevent rape and will only prevent people from courting. Now can I and others go out and meet cute guys and fall in love with men of our own choosing or is our only responsible course of action to have someone arrange a marriage/relationship for us? Thats ridiculous.. imo it sounds like some people do ascribe to the "uncovered meat" theory.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley


Riley no one is saying don't go out. No one is saying don't dress to look hot. I am glad you DO take precautions when out with the girls and watch each others back. What we are saying is while you are out, be mindful that looking good MAY attract the attention of a scumbag and NOT just the hot guy your hoping to talk to before the nights over. Bottom line, just continue being somewhat cautious, and continue to understand that there is 1 in every crowd.

Also remember...the eyeballs make for a great target with your ladies fingernails...

Originally posted by sos37

I've already said that I believe that rape is rape. I'm challenging the notion that the woman does not share part of the blame.

If you say that it would be fair to say that the woman in question in going to get raped BECAUSE she keeps putting herself in that situation then you must agree that SHE MUST share some of the blame.

Where's the personal responsibility for one's own actions these days?

this logic ultimately leads to the precautionary principle, which in turn limits your every step. that's unacceptable, imho, and one of the most crucial differences between Islam and civilized societies.

www.heraldsun.com.au...#

these same people who commit rape seem to know extremely well when they have to keep their urges in check (otherwise they wouldn't be here..), ie. when they talk to people who can actually hurt them (physically or financially, it doesn't matter), therefore they could just decide not to attack, if they actually wanted to.

the general climate of fear surrounding rape and rape accusations isn't doing anyone a favor (well except the predators, that is) because it's already actively limiting everyone by inducing widespread paranoia. the reason why Women appear vindicative of rape victims could be traced to a desire to suppress the thought of potentially being affected themselves: blaming the victim implies some sort of control on her part, which again allows for greater peace of mind than the prospect of being at the mercy of an unknown number of predators. who knows, i'd still go with a botched survey with leading questions and too few participants from the wrong district.....

Originally posted by rcwj1975
reply to post by riley

 

Riley no one is saying don't go out. No one is saying don't dress to look hot. I am glad you DO take precautions when out with the girls and watch each others back. What we are saying is while you are out, be mindful that looking good MAY attract the attention of a scumbag and NOT just the hot guy your hoping to talk to before the nights over. Bottom line, just continue being somewhat cautious, and continue to understand that there is 1 in every crowd.

I never said I haven't been and I'm fairly good at establishing boundaries. Girls should be taught all these things but what is missing is boys being taught "locker room" rules from their peers (and crappy role models) teach that good girls are who you marry and bad girls are who you use. They are someone's daughters yet the current cultural attitude is still to worship males who make the most sexual conquests and slander females who show any sexual expression.

Or slander women who show none.. women are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Also remember...the eyeballs make for a great target with your ladies fingernails...

This is true but does introduce another cultural problem where girls are taught to be nice to a fault. I said earlier in the thread about a girl who didn't know she was allowed to fight back. Imo "nice" passive girls are more targets than "sexy" ones as they are (at least percieved as) less likely to fight back. Imo Rapists would look for vulnerable women not ones that stand out. That chick in the red dress.. to wear such a dress she would have to have a bold and assertive personality and men may be intimidated by such a woman so I do not think she would be no1 target.. but how does a nice, passive girl nicely tell a man not to rape her?

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Tokio

 

Yes you are missing the point...because we aren't saying you can dress a certain way to 100% prevent being raped. But you can be smart about the decisions you make so you aren't put in a potentially dangerous situation....why is this so hard to understand.

As to your response to my locked doors...what if I just left my doors open (open meaning wide open...not just unlocked)...or hey...let's say I just decide not to have any doors on my house. Do you think I would be robbed more often?

Or let's say I never close my garage door...leave it open all night every single night. Do you think some things will go missing over time? Do you think some people who wouldn't rob me if the door was closed would rob me if the door was open???

Now this is completely different then what you describe...you are describing someone who WANTS to rob me and will stop and at nothing...that is not what we are talking about..

Do you see the difference?

I get what you are saying but I still don't think clothes has anything to do with it. It's the overall situation and the people involved.

My old friend told me his family accidentally left their door wide open. Their neighbor closed it for them and they weren't robbed. He lives in a good area.

Or you can leave your door open and get robbed. Depends on who is around.

I'm not saying that girls shouldn't watch out, I'm saying that I don't think the clothes matter. But like I said before I don't find clothes to be sexy. I don't think a mini skirt is more sexy than a pair of jeans. It depends on HOW you wear it not WHAT you wear.

I think a modestly dressed girl and a flashy dressed girl have the same chance of being rapped if they walk around alone in the back alley of some worn out crime ridden area.

However, if she is in a pretty safe area then she probably won't get raped - regardless of what she is wearing.

I think people should be careful no matter where they go and no matter what they are wearing. But if something DOES happen the victim shouldn't get the blame. Not even partial blame. "Well if you didn't do blahblah..!!"

No. If the robber/killer/rapist wasn't a robber/killer/rapist then it wouldn't have happened. It is not the victims fault that the other person is a robber/killer/rapist. The victim didn't create that person, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is NOT their fault. I don't care what they are wearing.

Besides, aren't most women raped by someone they know? What does that have to do with clothing? How is that partially her fault?

If someone gets shot is it their fault for not walking around all day in full protective gear?

I don't think you ever gave me an answer about men getting raped. Why are they not blamed for their clothes? How do men 'invite' it?

I might get raped in a mini skirt, I might get raped in jeans. Either way it is not my fault. Not even partially.

reply to post by riley


I will agree there are still men who live the "man code" way or "macho" BS way, but that will never change. Just impossible. I PROMISE you there are plenty of men out there who don't do the locker room talk, treat women with respect, understand what it is to be a man AND a gentleman. But at the same time even though YOU don't like those types of men, there are MILLIONS of women who will ONLY be drawn to the boys who a re macho, act like turds, are the "bad boys" etc...and as long as there is demand, there will be supply.

That is why you surround yourself with good friends, trust your family, and never date in an arena that has "those" types....i.e. why i will NEVER date a woman I find at a bar or club...that social network always tends to have its setbacks....

Originally posted by rcwj1975
reply to post by riley

 

I will agree there are still men who live the "man code" way or "macho" BS way, but that will never change. Just impossible. I PROMISE you there are plenty of men out there who don't do the locker room talk, treat women with respect, understand what it is to be a man AND a gentleman. But at the same time even though YOU don't like those types of men, there are MILLIONS of women who will ONLY be drawn to the boys who a re macho, act like turds, are the "bad boys" etc...and as long as there is demand, there will be supply.

Those locker room attitudes are perpeuated throughout western media so I do not think they are in the minority. It does not help that there are footy teams than engage in gang rapes either as they are also role models. I believe men who are not like them just avoid them and do their own thing or perhaps play along and pretend they are like that but they are generally not alpha males with lots of power in male social groups. I know there is alot of pressure for men to "score" and thats gonna be with someone's daughter.

That is why you surround yourself with good friends, trust your family, and never date in an arena that has "those" types....i.e. why i will NEVER date a woman I find at a bar or club...that social network always tends to have its setbacks....

Apparently most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. The bar scene has obvious dangers but like the "hot chocolate rapist" who spiked hot chocolates in cafes.. he was targetting normal women and they would not have seen the harm in just having a coffee in a public place with someone.

Now.. I am fairly intuitive about people and situations and can see traps other women might fall straight into (so far knock on wood). I do not think women are to blame if they are naive and end up raped. "Women should know better" yes but if girls are not taught these things they should not have to find out the hard way. Educating potential victims does not fix the problem.. when it comes to pregnancy it's all about her behaviour. When it comes to rape it's always about her behaviour.. this thread ended up being about what a rape victim wears but why do people not want to discuss why young men are raping? Apparently only 1% of rapes end in conviction.. that is alot of rapists walking around free.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

this thread ended up being about what a rape victim wears but why do people not want to discuss why young men are raping? Apparently only 1% of rapes end in conviction.. that is alot of rapists walking around free.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

I agree, no one really gets into why the guys do it. It always comes back to the females behavior anytime rape comes up. "Well if she didn't..!!"

I don't understand why people are so quick to defend the rapist. And that IS what people are doing when they put part of the blame on the victim. They are saying they don't believe the guy is totally at fault.

They are saying "Sure, he shouldn't have raped her, but if she didn't do abc then..!!". They are saying that HER actions turned him into a rapist. If she didn't do ABC then he wouldn't have raped her.

I think it is 100% the rapists fault, and I too am interested in the reasons as to WHY. Why did he choose the jogger girl instead of the girl in the skirt? Why did he rape his friend? Why does he rape at all? (or she, because yes, girls can rape too)

Victims don't turn rapists into rapists. It is the other way around. Rapists turn victims into victims. But why do they rape in the first place?

Surely it has nothing to do with clothes or alcohol or dark streets. The rapist has to be willing to do it in the first place.

(I don't remember the source, but I did read something before about a college(i think) survey where a large number of the guys said they would commit rape if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Why?!)

Originally posted by ReelView

unfortunately, driven by strong impulses, people actually do things they can't even remember they did.

That would be a medical problem.

Now males are subject to the minds misdirection and breeding is a strong impulse for them as well. This results in a male that can be driven to believe or rationalize lies in his head just as well as a woman can.

Original sin aside, rape has NOTHING to do with reproduction. NOTHING.

It's all about domination and control.

While the Burka is a far extreme,

Yes, it is.

the bottom line is that modesty and appropriate distance are not stupidities but responsible compassion that uphold purity.

So impure women are fair game, is that your point?

Purity is another of those words like "Conspiracy", "UFO", "Satanic", "Family", etc. that the NWO has turned against humanity for one reason or another.

I see you turning the word "purity" against half of humanity. And yes, I do suspect that you are an unwitting shill for the NWO.

Originally posted by Tokio

I agree, no one really gets into why the guys do it. It always comes back to the females behavior anytime rape comes up. "Well if she didn't..!!"

Well when you know the answer you will hold the key to life since it was created. We don't know because there are so many different reasons, excuses, etc....to narrow it down to one reason doesn't seem possible...again if you do...please let me know. I only know why they do it because of the reasons they have told me. As for your BS quote of "well if she didn't"....again no one here is blaming the females, we gave reasons why men may do it and it so happened ONE of those reasons had to do with the female...

I don't understand why people are so quick to defend the rapist. And that IS what people are doing when they put part of the blame on the victim. They are saying they don't believe the guy is totally at fault.

This is the dumbest thing said so fair. NO ONE defended a rapist...grow up!!!! We as ADULTS are discussing what makes these guys rape and in all of our collective posts have said it DOES have something to do with dress. I KNOW it has something to do with dress because men i have put away TOLD ME SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Are they (the man) still at fault, of course, but YET AGAIN we are giving reasons why men rape...and you asked WHY DO MEN RAPE...well YET AGAIN in SOME cases its because of the clothing..i.e. appeal to the mans nasty ways....

They are saying "Sure, he shouldn't have raped her, but if she didn't do abc then..!!". They are saying that HER actions turned him into a rapist. If she didn't do ABC then he wouldn't have raped her.

Again this is stupid. What they are saying is if you DON'T get into a strange mans car, but instead go home with your girlfriends you have a BETTER chance of not being raped then telling your girlfriends, hey i am leaving with this hot guy. If that doesn't make sence to you, I feel sorry for you. Is she contributing to the RAPE, no, is she giving the rapist an easier time of pulling off his plan...DUH...of course.

I think it is 100% the rapists fault, and I too am interested in the reasons as to WHY. Why did he choose the jogger girl instead of the girl in the skirt? Why did he rape his friend? Why does he rape at all? (or she, because yes, girls can rape too)

Of course it is. When a man forces his penis into ANY vagina it is the mans fault. Again NO ONE is arguing that. And you just started answering your won questions. Why rape the jogger...OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!!! Yes shes in sweats and not sexy, but she IS jogging alone in an area where no one can see her get taken...is it her fault...NOOOOOOOOO....but AGAIN the opportunity arose for scum to take advantage of said female. Raping friends in my experiance which is extensive ALWAYS came down to emotional ties to the female. They were friends, guy started liking friend, she had no clue and when he made his suttle advances she was like ewwww...which pissed him off and because he knew he couldnt have her willingly, he forces her. Why they do it...no idea...but that is the reason i am almost ALWAYS given my rapists of their friends.

Victims don't turn rapists into rapists. It is the other way around. Rapists turn victims into victims. But why do they rape in the first place?

We all agree victims don't turn rapists into such animals, but what do the animals do they look for their opportunity...who gives them that opportunity...THE VICTIM. Not in all cases, of course as we do have the home invasion cases, or the snatch cases, but we also have the left the bar with the guy cases, went to a party, etc.... cases. is it their fault, NO, but the OPPORTUNITY by their actions opened the door for these guys to pounce on their victim. That is just common sense. Again, can you ever drown if you never go into water?

Surely it has nothing to do with clothes or alcohol or dark streets. The rapist has to be willing to do it in the first place.

Obviously you have no idea of reality and deal with it the way i do. Again, yes yet AGAIN...I have had guys omit that they raped because they found her "hot" and knew she wouldnt give them the time of day, they simply wanted to get theirs. I have had men say they took advantage of her because she was drunk and didn't think anyone would ever know. And I have had forced rape cases where the woman WAS attacked to Spring Street...not a dark alley but an unsafe street and someone siezed that moment to take her while she was alone after leaving the bar a block over.

(I don't remember the source, but I did read something before about a college(i think) survey where a large number of the guys said they would commit rape if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Why?!)

Hell of a claim to make and NOT remember the article. I am sure that article was as reliable as this survey.


the question why will never be answered...just like why do people murder, rob, molest, steal, lie, cheat, etc....there are way to many reasons, excuses, etc....

[edit on 2/15/2010 by rcwj1975]