Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

reply to post by badw0lf

Neat, then I can go bash that rich guy up the road and take his possessions, I mean the audacity of him flaunting it in front of me.

and you should still go to prison for it. Please stop being sensational about this.

its clean and cut down the center.

If you robbed him, then you deserve what you get. If he flaunts it to you (someone who admits to being mentally unstable enough to rob someone) then he deserves what HE gets.

Its that simple.

Anyone who considers clothes a factor of rape is an idiot and needs to stay away from other humans.

Let me point out some things:

1. "Provocative" clothes doesn't mean she's trying to attract anyone.

Seriously. Or maybe she's a lesbian and is trying to attract women, not men.

I like corsets. I like mini skirts. If I had the money I would dress up in corsets and mini skirts because I like them.

But I'm not interested in sexually attracting anyone. Really, I'm not.

In fact, I think I have a low sex drive because I'm really not all that interested in sex. I've never met someone I was sexually attracted to. I'm quite happily a virgin and happy to stay that way. I don't like being hit on.

No matter what I'm wearing I'm not trying to attract anyone. If I had the money to wear the clothes I liked I might look 'sexy' to someone but that is only a byproduct and not my intention. I would wear the clothes because they are fun and I like them. Not because I want anyone to fantasize about me.

Why should I be punished for the clothes I like?

2. Sometimes it gets hot.

Ever been to the beach? It's hot. And it's hard to swim with layers of clothes on.

So if a girl at the beach gets raped it's kinda-sorta her fault for attracting someone with her bathing suit?

If someone lives where it gets 90 degrees then it's kinda-sorta their fault that they're wearing shorts and a tank top instead of snow gear?

Trying staying covered when it's 110 degrees out.

3. Sexiness is NOT universal.

Nope. You might think short skirts and low tops are sexy. Someone else might think it's ugly and jeans and a t-shirt are sexy.

I don't think clothes are sexy at all! I think sexiness has to do with attitude, not clothes. A girl can wear revealing clothes but have an annoying personality and be very unsexy. Likewise, a girl can be wearing snow gear but be very sexualized in her attitude.

What if a guy finds snow gear sexy? Maybe he gets off on the idea of peeling back layer and layer of clothes to get the reward underneath it all....

It is kinda-sorta that girl's fault for wearing snow gear that the guy thought was irresistible?

Clothes don't matter! Ever!

And the victim is NEVER EVER at fault. I don't care if she's naked. Just because YOU think it's sexy does not mean SHE has to suffer.

It is not the victims fault that the attacker can't control themselves.

Lord...at this rate maybe we should just blame women for having the audacity of being a women. If you don't want to get raped then why would you be a women?! You're partially at fault for being the gender that the rapist is attracted to! (sarcasm, of course.)

And yes, I know men get raped too, but I'm a girl so I write it from my point of view. In fact, a boy in my old high school got raped in the bathroom. Others made fun of him and said he was gay and 'wanted it' or else he would have fought back more. Poor guy.

reply to post by Tokio

Anyone who considers clothes a factor of rape is an idiot and needs to stay away from other humans.

Correction: Anyone who chooses to live in a fantasy world of "the way things SHOULD be" and refuses to acknowledge "the way things actually are" is an idiot.

But i knew what you meant

Originally posted by Snarf
reply to post by riley

 

Rape is against the law and an illegal assault.. flirting and wearing sexy clothes is and has always been part of the female courtship ritual and is not against the law and is not an assault. For you to draw moral comparisons between the two is.. well creepy to say the least

Why do you feel the need to change the nature of this discussion?
Nobody is saying rape should be legal.

Nobody is saying wearing clothes should be illegal.

So please, stop hiding behind this wall.

I'm not hiding behind any wall. People have been making the assertion that a women who wear sexy clothes are partially responsible for their own rapes. If that is what people think then they ARE saying rape should be partially legal as a victim of a crime can NEVER be partially responsible for the crime. We do not have lawyers argueing that the victims of muggings are partially responsible because they were walking down the street wearing bright orange. Bright orange makes people stand out but does not make people more likely to be mugged and the same goes for sexy clothes.

We are talking about a principal here. We are talking about what is truly right and wrong. We're not talking about legal/illegal...even you i would assume can discern that what is legal is not always right, and what is illegal is not always wrong.

What we are talking about is the naive nature that some women hold onto proudly. Earlier, someone posted a picture of a woman in a very provocative dress....borderline skanky/whorish/slutty, etc

If that women were at a party and agreed to go to another party with a guy she met, and was raped.

Well, guess what? It *IS* her fault. He is still to blame and he SHOULD STILL to go prison, but she IS NOT INNOCENT. She shouldn't go to PRISON, but she cannot say she was not taking precautions against it.

No it would NOT be her fault. Do you know what rape even means? IT MEANS FORCING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE and yes she would be innocent.. she WOULD be guilty of having very bad taste in clothing but rape is not a justiable punnishment for it and for you to say she's not innocent is indeed argueing that rape IS somehow an indirect punnishment for wearing such a dress.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

You can ask the questions you want in a certain way you want to get the answers and then sensationalize the findings.

I highly doubt the questionnaire and as a result doubt 50% of women actually think this.

reply to post by Tokio

1. "Provocative" clothes doesn't mean she's trying to attract anyone.

You are missing the point. It doesn't really matter what she is TRYING to attract...it is what she does attract. Again...I'm surprised, especially on ATS, of the amount of people that live in this fantasy land where everything is how it SHOULD be.

2. Sometimes it gets hot.

Let's go out into the desert. You wear your bikini or your shorts and tank top...I'll wear loose fiting light clothing from my head to my toe. We will see who stays cooler. This is a cop out excuse...hot weather is an excuse to show skin...it is actually making you hotter by allowing the sun to directly hit your skin.

3. Sexiness is NOT universal.

Again..it doesn't matter. Why do you insist on living in this fantasy world where you think everything is perfect and everyone SHOULD be able to do what they want. We SHOULD be able to leave our doors unlocked...hell...we shouldn't even NEED locks. But I live in reality...not in fantasy land...so I have locks on my doors and I lock them.

reply to post by riley

People have been making the assertion that a women who wear sexy clothes are partially responsible for their own rapes.

Exactly - and the only method you choose to disprove them is by saying what IS and IS NOT legal.

We're not talking about legal issues here. We're talking about responsibility.

Again, if you can't realize that, then there is another problem we have to address....

She doesn't deserve to go to jail, but she also doesn't get sympathy. She asked for it, rather she WANTED it to happen or not.

Take responsibility, grow up, and take control of your own life. People should stop blaming their problems on others.

"My house got robbed, because i left my front door unlocked"

Well, then don't leave your front door unlocked

[edit on 15-2-2010 by Snarf]

Originally posted by riley
I'm not missing the point. I wouldn't wear that dress personally (it's bloody awful and I do not think it's attractive really anyway- just has shock value) and you keep posting it as if it's an argument for rape. I have dressed sexy in the past and what happened? Men didn't approach me and the ones that did obviously took ages to summon the courage. On the rare occasion where I have been groped the guys have landed on his arse with a stunned look on their face. Why was he stunned? Someone has taught him that touching a woman they do not know innapropriately is acceptable behaviour. On both occasions I was wearing jeans and a tank top.

You ARE missing the point. The point is there ARE men who feed off of the signals YOU as a female give them and there are men who don't give a hoot about singals and simply want to conquer women. A signal IN THEIR minds...not mine or a majority of men...is how you present yourself...i.e. the picture! And this argument for rape stuff is YOU being single minded to the FACTS of what actually happens out there EVERY SINGLE DAY! You keep implying that I and others think you deserved to be raped if you wore that outfit...NOOOOOOOOOOO or that by wearing that outfit it makes rape more acceptable...NOOOOOOOO, it simply is a way to say it makes it more PROBABLE because YES some men cannot control it....why is it so hard to wrap your head around that?

I'm wondering.. how have you reacted to those men showing/telling you about raping someone? What was your response and what was their motive for telling you?

Again since your NOT actually reading what i have posted and talking out of PURE EMOTION you apparently missed ALL the posts where I have said I am a COP who investigates rapes and has locked up MANY rapists. THAT is why I know FIRST HAND so much about how they think and what makes them react, THAT is why I have spoken to many of them, and putting them away for a long time is my motivation. Not to mention wanting to knock their teeth out....but hey this is America...can't be doing that..

[edit on 2/15/2010 by rcwj1975]

reply to post by riley

People have been making the assertion that a women who wear sexy clothes are partially responsible for their own rapes. If that is what people think then they ARE saying rape should be partially legal as a victim of a crime can NEVER be partially responsible for the crime.

Riley...you really aren't catching on here. I don't know how many people have to say it and in so many ways. We are NOT saying that the deserve to be raped or that the victim is CRIMINALLY responsible. We are saying that they are PERSONALLY responsible for being stupid and making stupid decisions which put them in a potentially dangerous situation. How is that not clear to you? You have ignored every example we have given about us putting ourselves in dangerous situations...would we be partially personally responsible in any of those situations?

she WOULD be guilty of having very bad taste in clothing but rape is not a justiable punnishment for it and for you to say she's not innocent is indeed argueing that rape IS somehow an indirect punnishment for wearing such a dress

COME ON...no one said that it is a justifiable punishment. We said it is her personal responsibility to choose to wear something like that...which in the real world that we all live in...draws attention to herself. Like someone pointed out...there will be different levels of attention...some positive...some neutral...and some negative. Some wanted attention and some unwanted attention. If she were to be raped...it isn't punishment for wearing that clothing...but wearing that clothing MAY have contributed to the events that lead up to her being raped. We aren't saying it definately did..we aren't saying she deserved it...but we are saying that it is not a wise decision to make.


So why continue to live in this fantasy world of yours where you think women SHOULD be able to wear anything they want when in reality we KNOW that it brings negative attention. The fact that we are even discussing it means that it is happening in the real world...why are you denying it???

Well, this is hypothetical, but the rich neighbor analogy got me thinking. If the beautiful mansion draws attention to what is inside by having lots of ground level windows, well, it draws not only the attention of those who admire fine architecture, but also the attention of thieves who see easy access to the goods. So, to take this analogy to a woman out for an evening with friends, maybe it is best to NOT be the sexiest looking one in the group. Now I'm NOT saying the clothes cause a woman to get raped (Heck no!), but if the rapists are out there mixing in the nightclub crowd, you might not want to be too much eye candy for them. Still, if you like to dress sexy, take a self defense course and take precautions in all the other ways you can. Assume there is at least one rapist in the club, just as a smart home owner assumes there are thieves driving around looking for a target and gets a home security system.

Originally posted by December_Rain
No it is not objective at all. We all know and can identify the "looks". Women are part of the same "society", just coz' a male cannot control himself sould not restrict freedom of women.

I completely agree with you, however you should be responsible enough not to dress to the extreme. Dress to the extreem could be a burqa or extremely little and very revealing.
There are two endpoints in the spectrum of extremism

Originally posted by December_Rain

They do not wear it for themselves they wear it for others.
Dress to impress, impress who? Others.

Wrong, they for sure are not wearing for people to stare at them. Granted there are females who like attention but generalising is not gonna help.

Dude, One day when I was younger in my early 20s I was seeing this girl.
She always had to dress super-hot at clubs and stuff.
People used to stare and I didn't like it.
I'm like why do you have to impress others?
She said I dress like this for me not for others!

I said oh really? So if you are at home alone just chilling out would you dress all up like this? Then she said nothing.

Of course it's somewhat of a silly example and before someone responds and say yes it is, i'll say it, yes it is!

There is still some truth to it though.

Women know men like cleavage and legs, so they show it.

Originally posted by December_Rain
I did saw that picture and I still disagree with you. She is wearing it for herself coz' perhaps she thinks she looks good in that. She could be wearing it for her boyfriend, husband etc also.

She in a high quality pic, im' pretty sure it's for the viewers.
I'm all for women dressing like that for their significant others btw.

Originally posted by December_Rain
If some think that women wearing short clothes grants male right to stare/ ogle or make them target for rape then you are highly mistaken. I treat females equally as male that is why it does not affect me how they wear or what they wear. Once you understand the concept of equality in male and females it's not hard to understand what is right or wrong.

I do think that if women show alot of cleavage then it's okay to stare.
They don't do it for themselves or because it's hot, that's why you don't often see small-chested women dress like that.

I treat women equally too but if they are flashing then i'll be forced to look!
Honestly, I don't stare, but I will defend that position though.

Understanding equality does not come into mind when you are being attracted to a woman. Sure, ABSOLUTELY, a woman that is intelligent and thinks for herself is an attraction, but there IS also a physical attraction.
And if you are in a crowd that's what takes over

Originally posted by novacs4me
Well, this is hypothetical, but the rich neighbor analogy got me thinking. If the beautiful mansion draws attention to what is inside by having lots of ground level windows, well, it draws not only the attention of those who admire fine architecture, but also the attention of thieves who see easy access to the goods. So, to take this analogy to a woman out for an evening with friends, maybe it is best to NOT be the sexiest looking one in the group. Now I'm NOT saying the clothes cause a woman to get raped (Heck no!), but if the rapists are out there mixing in the nightclub crowd, you might not want to be too much eye candy for them. Still, if you like to dress sexy, take a self defense course and take precautions in all the other ways you can. Assume there is at least one rapist in the club, just as a smart home owner assumes there are thieves driving around looking for a target and gets a home security system.

I think you make a very good point.

What do you think that beautiful mansion has that an ordinary house doesn't have though??? Probably a top of the line security system because the owner KNOWS he attracts attention from the negative along with the positive.

maybe it is best to NOT be the sexiest looking one in the group.

I agree 100%...but I would also say don't be the least sexy one in the group either. This is probably good advice for any situation...try to blend in...don't stick out by running ahead of the group...and don't stick out by being a straggler.

Ladies...really all I, and I think the others, are trying to say is to BE SMART. Because we DON'T want something bad to happen to you...we know you like your sexy clothes...we appreciate them too...but we also know there are others that go beyond "appreciating" them and take it as a SIGNAL. It's not right...and in a perfect world it wouldn't exist...but we don't live in a perfect world.

If this thread has any merit then all the rapists and child molesters should be set free because it's not their fault.

Hell while were at it let's set all the killers free because it's not their fault either!

Things women can do to lesson their chances of getting raped.

Learn self defence.
Watch their drinks do not get spiked.
Be aware of surroundings and have someone to watch their back.

Move to a planet that has no other people on it.

There are teenage girls everywhere showing off their newly grown boobs. This is a very natural thing to do the problem is they are oblivious as to what some teenage boys are like. Likewise there are teenage boys everywhere being taught that getting a girl drunk to the point where she cannot move and having sex with her is "not really" rape because she shouldn't have drunk so much in the first place and was showing off her new boobs..

I can guarentee alot of people who are posting here AGREE with this rationale and that is presicely why a new generations of men will think it's acceptable.

If a man gets an erection after seeing my cleavage that is in no way my responsibilty and I'm not obligated to relieve it. Males need to be taught to be responsible for their own sexuality and I'm sick of the male erection being spoken of like it's a mental disorder that they have no control over like a tick or something.

"Oh no its a man with a mighty erection everyone cover up and run for the hills before you get raped it's out of control!!"

[edit on 15-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Tokio

 

1. "Provocative" clothes doesn't mean she's trying to attract anyone.

You are missing the point. It doesn't really matter what she is TRYING to attract...it is what she does attract. Again...I'm surprised, especially on ATS, of the amount of people that live in this fantasy land where everything is how it SHOULD be.

You are missing the point. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that if a women dresses provocatively it was because she wanted to sexually attract men. I was pointing out that this is not always true.

2. Sometimes it gets hot.

Let's go out into the desert. You wear your bikini or your shorts and tank top...I'll wear loose fiting light clothing from my head to my toe. We will see who stays cooler. This is a cop out excuse...hot weather is an excuse to show skin...it is actually making you hotter by allowing the sun to directly hit your skin.

3. Sexiness is NOT universal.

Again..it doesn't matter. Why do you insist on living in this fantasy world where you think everything is perfect and everyone SHOULD be able to do what they want. We SHOULD be able to leave our doors unlocked...hell...we shouldn't even NEED locks. But I live in reality...not in fantasy land...so I have locks on my doors and I lock them.

I don't care who she attracts. That is not HER fault. Why should she be partially at fault because someone else finds it sexy?

Like I said..if a girl wearing snow gear gets raped is she still partially at fault because the guy finds snow gear sexy?

Yes, we cannot control someone else's actions and we don't live in a perfect world..but ..why should the VICTIM be partially responsible for that?

Yes, you might have locks on your doors...but I might have a chain saw. Is it your fault for not having a chain saw poof door? What about if I bombed it? Or broke the glass windows? If someone wants to get in then they are going to get in.

Likewise, if someone is going to rape a girl then they are going to rape her regardless of what she is wearing. Even in more modest countries where women are covered there is still rape.

If a women doesn't want to 'invite' rape then how should she dress? I can't think of a single clothing style that would stop a rapist...

Hmm, maybe someone finds smoking to be sexy. So if a smoker gets raped are they partially to blame for being a smoker in the first place?

I don't understand how anyone can put any blame on the victim. No matter what we do someone somewhere in the world will find it sexy.

What is the excuse for men who get raped? I don't see people blaming them for the way they dress.

reply to post by riley


Normally you give pretty good posts but with this last one has proven you don't get it and for whatever reason like to sterotype....I don't know what happened to you in the past or what this topic does, but I have done more for women and the tragedy of rape then you ever will...so as to your condsending attitude I am done trying to give you the TRUTH to a very sick REALITY....and it appears you want nothing to do with the truth....

reply to post by Dock9


You know it's really hard for women to move forward in our society when they can't even realize when they are NOT at fault for somebody else's actions.

Obviously rape victims are NOT to blame. Nobody has ever "deserved" to be raped, regardless of the situation or that persons actions.

I wish women would realize that if they want to heard, recognized and respected throughout the world, they need to take responsibility, stop feeling sorry for themselves and stand up to this kind of tyranny.

You can't help those, who refuse to help themselves.

I'm a little disturbed by the trending I see in that report, along with the stat that men don't think it's rape if their partner doesn't want to.

No means no folks, and I think any well adjusted adult understands that concept.

~Keeper

I would just like Tokio or Riley to respond to the multiple examples men gave about putting themselves in a dangerous situation.

Generic example: Guy walks through a known high crime area flashing a rolex and wads of cash. Guy get's robbed.

Would you say it is partially their fault?

Did he make a smart decision? Do you think he is partially PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for being robbed???

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I would just like Tokio or Riley to respond to the multiple examples men gave about putting themselves in a dangerous situation.

Generic example: Guy walks through a known high crime area flashing a rolex and wads of cash. Guy get's robbed.

Would you say it is partially their fault?

Did he make a smart decision? Do you think he is partially PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for being robbed???

You can't equate robbery to rape my friend, that argument is moot.

They are two VERY different crimes with two VERY different consequences.

~Keeper

reply to post by Tokio


Yes you are missing the point...because we aren't saying you can dress a certain way to 100% prevent being raped. But you can be smart about the decisions you make so you aren't put in a potentially dangerous situation....why is this so hard to understand.

As to your response to my locked doors...what if I just left my doors open (open meaning wide open...not just unlocked)...or hey...let's say I just decide not to have any doors on my house. Do you think I would be robbed more often?

Or let's say I never close my garage door...leave it open all night every single night. Do you think some things will go missing over time? Do you think some people who wouldn't rob me if the door was closed would rob me if the door was open???

Now this is completely different then what you describe...you are describing someone who WANTS to rob me and will stop and at nothing...that is not what we are talking about..

Do you see the difference?