The Modern UFO Myth and Imminent Disclosure

Originally posted by ArMaP
Being from an European country, I would like to ask if you see any relation between this time frame and what was happening in Europe at that time..

Thanks for the kind words ArMaP

I don't see any relation, but I haven't given the idea any thought to be honest. It's an interesting point, one, maybe, we should give more consideration.

If the UFO myth was something handy to the western intelligence agencies I'm sure they've made use of it, for example, as a cover and a tool for operations targeting the Soviet Union.

I've mentioned before something I heard in Greg Bishop's radio show that is perhaps indicative of its use as a counter-intelligence effort.

I'm not sure how many of you know the name Walter Bosley, but he is a former AFOSI agent and friend of Greg Bishop who from time to time makes appearances on Greg's show Radio Misterioso. While I take all of Walter's statements with a grain of salt I found one of his testimonies revealing: when asked by Greg if he had ever gone to a UFO conference while working for the AFOSI Walter replied that he did, once, but emphasized he was there monitoring suspicious foreign individuals not american citizens.

I would also like to ask if you see any relation to the differences in the type of sighting that were more commonly reported before and after the transition between the 70s and the 80s.

I know a lot of people won't like this but, during that period of time we saw the introduction—and certainly testing—of several ‘triangularly shaped’ aircraft—the F117, the B2. And these are the ones we know about.

Am I saying people were only seeing experimental aircraft? No. I'm saying the, let's called them ‘differently shaped’ aircraft, might have had some influence on the trend of UFOs being reported. We have to at least consider the possibility, in light of the time frame, and what was, at the time, being developed and tested.

We can recognize that, and at the same time, acknowledge that, for example, the “Belgian triangle” and “Phoenix Lights” cases are very interesting.

Originally posted by converge
If the UFO myth was something handy to the western intelligence agencies I'm sure they've made use of it, for example, as a cover and a tool for operations targeting the Soviet Union.

One of the reasons I asked is because here in Portugal we started seeing several reports of UFOs during the first years after the Carnation Revolution, and during this time both the US and the (then) USSR were very interested in what was happening.

It could also be just because people were afraid of talking during the dictatorship.

Some accounts earlier in the thread did not understand my post so I will repost:

Originally posted by game over man

I have to ask you OP, factual evidence of UFO encounters? Do you have some? You mentioned UFOs appear and disappear.

Pretty self explanatory, all about the facts right?

Originally posted by game over man

Have Presidents ever spoke on the subject of ET's? Anything unusual or noticeable in the tone of their voice, or the look in their eyes?

Since you claim the DISINFO theory, and that what we know about UFO's is the same as what Barack Obama knows about UFOs. Right? It's all about the facts.

Originally posted by game over man

Since you believe there is a "cover up" designed and implemented by the US Government, why would they fantasize the whole scenario?

You mentioned how the whole DISINFO campaign started in the 80's to drive someone insane, a business man who sold technology to a military base who noticed some weird lights and noises. This is where all the DISINFO stems from? Why would the government do such a thing, what is the moitve?


The cover up cover up theory? To create a cult following?

Originally posted by game over man

It's funny someone wrote about the Reptilians living in another dimensions controlling the world, haha that is pretty funny. But they did mention the low vibration theory. If you read about Quantum Physics, maybe there is more to the whole fear tactics by the US Government.

Take it with a grain of salt

Originally posted by game over man
Wouldn't you say that every move by the US Government, is a cover up? Everything? Every Government in the World? Everyone has satellites. Anyone could disclose, couldn't they?

So if there is a DISINFO campaign started in the 80's, and you claim there are UFO's that appear and disappear.....well what then? This whole topic you've started is very great and all, but everyone so far in this thread is applauding you, but no one is engaging in anything but applauding you.

The US Government...over and over and over again...is mentioned....why? No one else is up in SPACE?

Satellites orbiting Earth

You do realize that NASA sent men to the moon and the pictures they've always revealed to public are in Black and White.

Nasa picture of the Moon

Just curious OP, when are you going to start linking examples and visual aids?

What are your thoughts on the increase of Astronauts, Military, Police, FAA, or any trustworthy person coming forward nowadays? All part of the DISINFO from the 80's?



So first he was asked to come out in the Press Conference with the Alien Costume, then he comes out again on CNN and says the exact opposite?

PLEASE EXPLAIN OP.......with FACTS. Not your biased opinion.

Thank You

Originally posted by superluminal11
So why would this agent Doty target one paticular Bennewitz (...) What exactly do you think the main objectives were from whomever was handling Doty and company (...) Sounds like a lot of work to me that is unless it was a big deal. these signals and lights

It is assumed the disinformation campaign targeted Bennewitz because he stumbled upon on-going secret projects at Kirtland and the Air Force wanted to divert his attention away from the base. The communication signals and lights were allegedly part of the projects, they didn't make them up to mess with Bennewitz.

I don't know if the Air Force wanted, specifically, to fabricate all those narratives and stories for other purposes or if it was just handy for the Bennewitz operation because Bennewitz already believed UFOs were of extra-terrestrial origin.

One thing that is clear though—Doty didn't need to spread disinformation to other people, like Linda Howe, for the Bennewitz operation. So he clearly wanted these stories out there. If the Air Force wanted that as well, I don't know. But since Doty wasn't reprimanded, either the Air Force sanctioned that too or they didn't care.

Rationalizing - people jump to conclusions and frequently rationalize or defend whatever conclusions they've jumped to. Psychologist Barry Singer did experiments on problem solving and concept formation show that when a person has to select an answer by being told which guesses are right or wrong they will:

1. Form immediate hypotheses to look for examples to confirm it. They won't seek evidence to disporove their hyphothesis although this would be just as effective, instead they ignore evidence against their hypothesis.

2. If the answers is secretly changed in the mid-guessing process, the person would be slow to change their hypothesis that was once correct but currently wrong.

3. If one hypothesis fits the data fairly, they won't look for another hypothesis that is better.

4. If information is too complex, people will cope by adopting simple hypothesis strategy for solution and ignore evidence against the hypothesis.

5. If there is no solution, if its a trick, and people are told right or wrong about their choices/guesses at random, people will form all sorts of hypothesis and causality perceived even when it is not present.

6. Pigeons and rats are better at solving problems than adults becuase they don't care if they're correct or not.

see also: selective attention: no eerie or cosmic, just a cooincidence. such as reading a novel about monarch butterflies and you look up and see a monarch butterfly. Thinking about someone and that person calls you. Cooincidence. Odd events happen naturally, usually our radar is working overtime.

Example: a man thought he saw a UFO, took video of it, chased after it, got under it, it said "Anthony's autobody free estimate" It was an advertisement plane with electrical lights that spell out ads. From an oblique angle it looked like a ufo. From the book, "How to think about weird things."

[edit on 31-1-2010 by bookreader]

reply to post by game over man
Thank you for your post. Unfortunately, I don't see the relevance of 90% of the stuff in it, nor the point you're trying to make bringing them up.

You seem to have grossly misinterpreted my thread and position. I don't claim “disinfo theory,” I claim a disinformation campaign, initially, targeting Paul Bennewitz influenced and fabricated narratives that are with us today. They are, in fact, at the base of the the most popular theories as I've argued in my first post. You're free to disagree.

My posts don't claim disinformation campaigns started in the 80s, or that all UFO stories stem from them, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I don't understand the relevance of visual aids you ask for either. Why? Do you have a problem concentrating on the text being presented without pretty pictures and videos?

It's quite clear you seem to having problems understanding exactly what I've said. You'll forgive me if I don't indulge you in coming up with visual aids for things that are quite clearly expressed in my posts, when everyone else doesn't seem to be having any problem.

Thank you for your post.

Originally posted by Subz949
What are the hard facts? Photographic evidence, trace evidence, radar returns? etc (...) I'm not sure it shows us any real answers.

I never claimed the hard facts we have now give us “any real answers.” I make clear, on several occasions, in fact, that we have evidence of something but no answers. That's why I say we should question the stories and notions that have been taken for granted by many.

If we don't have any answers, that means we have to investigate first and not just declare, a priori, that it's aliens, experimental secret aircraft, misidentifications or hoaxes. And that's what many seem to do.

Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by Subz949
What are the hard facts? Photographic evidence, trace evidence, radar returns? etc (...) I'm not sure it shows us any real answers.

I never claimed the hard facts we have now give us “any real answers.” I make clear, on several occasions, in fact, that we have evidence of something but no answers. That's why I say we should question the stories and notions that have been taken for granted by many.

If we don't have any answers, that means we have to investigate first and not just declare, a priori, that it's aliens, experimental secret aircraft, misidentifications or hoaxes. And that's what many seem to do.

I understand what your saying, i'm not sure you understood my point though - my fault.

How do we investigate further - beyond the description given by the witness, and their interpretation of the event, all we have is possible photographic evidence, or radar returns, or trace evidence, all of which can be replicated through terrestrial means. So I fail to see how we proceed with that........beyond the kind of investigation any non-prejudiced researcher would apply to a case, what type of investigating is needed to yeild any more details from ufo cases that hasn't been born out already.

A phenomena that does not repeat itself on demand remains impossible to investigate in the usual way.

Other then not jumping to conclusions, I'm not where else this subject can go at present.

Originally posted by Subz949
How do we investigate further (...) A phenomena that does not repeat itself on demand remains impossible to investigate in the usual way.

HA! Got it. Sorry if I misunderstood your point. You obviously bring up the next logical question: what now? I share your concern.

We, independent citizens, can't do much more probably in terms of the investigation of the phenomenon. We need the scientific community and academia interested and involved in the study and investigation of the phenomenon, for starters. But if we're going to get anywhere, in my opinion we need, eventually, an official investigation effort. A serious and open investigation, and not another Project Blue Book. I know, it's rather ambitious, but is there in other way?

Either way, we're not going to convince the scientific community and people in general to demand a serious investigation with stories of underground alien bases doing genetic experiments on humans.

reply to post by Subz949


There are a quite a few relevant articles and examples of scientific reports at this thread - theres are also some interesting proposals from the late Richard Hall about what science could do.

UFOs - A Challenge to Mainstream Science


...So what do scientists need to conduct a serious investigation of the UFO phenomenon? Scientists need:

(1) a physical phenomenon to observe;


(2) the formulation of a hypothesis about the phenomenon;


(3) experiments to test the hypothesis; and


(4) conclusions based on the results of the tests that confirm, refute or modify the hypothesis.

The UFO phenomenon meets all four of these scientific requirements:

(1) There is a physical phenomenon to observe. UFOs have been seen worldwide for over 50 years and captured on still and motion picture film and on videotape. There are a number of databases available, each of which contains tens of thousands of documented reports of UFO sightings.


(2) Hypotheses have been formulated. There are many variations of a simple hypothesis: UFOs are intelligently-controlled, physical craft not of Earthly origin.


(3) There is physical evidence that can be scientifically tested. Physical evidence of UFO operations in and around the Earth's atmosphere, as well as on the surface of the Earth, exists and has been studied scientifically (e.g., soil samples, radiation effects, electromagnetic activity).


(4) Evidence-based conclusions can be drawn by scientists. The results of the scientific tests will confirm, refute or modify the hypothesis that UFOs are physical craft not of Earthly origin.

Link

Cheers.

Originally posted by converge
I never claimed the hard facts we have now give us “any real answers.” I make clear, on several occasions, in fact, that we have evidence of something but no answers.

Converge, I'd agree with you there - there is definitely evidence of something - its just what that something is.

Whether these objects come from the ocean, a different dimension, outer space etc.. the one thing we should all be able to agree on is the need for dispassionate examination of UFO evidence - I think Bernard Haisch makes a very important point here:

"Cut through the ridicule and search for factual information in most of the skeptical commentary and one is usually left with nothing. This is not surprising.After all, how can one rationally object to a call for scientific examination of (UFO) evidence?"

Astrophysicist Bernard Haisch, Ph.D.

I think out of all the UFO organisations NICAP has been the most prevalent in calling for rigorous scientific study of the UFO subject - they were definitely on the right track in the sixties and seventies and had the backing of many scientists and engineers - I don't know if you've read it but their 'UFO Evidence -A New Look ' report is well worth a read (maybe on a rainy day).

UFOs: A NEW LOOK - A Special Report by the The National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a74b5e6a20cb.jpg[/atsimg]

"One of the most significant developments since 1964 has been the increasing concern over the UFO problem demonstrated by professional scientists and engineers. The growing involvement of scientists insisting on a careful review of the evidence decreases the likelihood that the problem could or would be buried or glossed over in the future before a proper evaluation is made".

Link

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

This is an amazing thread.. I appreciate you bringing this topic to our attention. It is wonderful to see people looking for answers.

Originally posted by converge
reply to post by game over man

 

Thank you for your post. Unfortunately, I don't see the relevance of 90% of the stuff in it, nor the point you're trying to make bringing them up.

You seem to have grossly misinterpreted my thread and position. I don't claim “disinfo theory,” I claim a disinformation campaign, initially, targeting Paul Bennewitz influenced and fabricated narratives that are with us today. They are, in fact, at the base of the the most popular theories as I've argued in my first post. You're free to disagree.

My posts don't claim disinformation campaigns started in the 80s, or that all UFO stories stem from them, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I don't understand the relevance of visual aids you ask for either. Why? Do you have a problem concentrating on the text being presented without pretty pictures and videos?

It's quite clear you seem to having problems understanding exactly what I've said. You'll forgive me if I don't indulge you in coming up with visual aids for things that are quite clearly expressed in my posts, when everyone else doesn't seem to be having any problem.

Thank you for your post.

Thank you for your humble response!

You seem to have grossly misinterpreted my thread and position. I don't claim “disinfo theory,” I claim a disinformation campaign, initially, targeting Paul Bennewitz influenced and fabricated narratives that are with us today. They are, in fact, at the base of the the most popular theories as I've argued in my first post. You're free to disagree.

I never said I disagree, you grossly misinterpreted my posts. I agree that it's great information, but I think if you want to find answers about UFO/ET, you need to kind of move on from the old broken record The Modern UFO Myth and Imminent Disclosure topic and claiming a disinformation campaign.

For example if Disclosure happened and the history books were changed, I'd skip the chapter about disinformation campaigns by the US Government. Sorry. You've made your point about a disinfo campaign. I don't really know what I've learned from that, really. Not trying to troll, looking for answers too my friend.

I missed this post, sorry, thank you for answering some of my questions.

Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by game over man
I have to ask you OP, factual evidence of UFO encounters? Do you have some? You mentioned UFOs appear and disappear.

There's plenty of factual evidence of that. You mentioned the Stephenville case. MUFON published a report on the Stephenville case with analysis of the radar returns. It confirms that there was an object where witnesses said they saw something strange. It was, apparently, an object, it was flying and it was unknown. That's factual evidence, in my book, of “UFO encounters” as you called them.

Have Presidents ever spoke on the subject of ET's? Anything unusual or noticeable in the tone of their voice, or the look in their eyes?

President Carter has talked on numerous occasions about his UFO sighting. Personally, I don't think much of his sighting. If I remember correctly it was the typical light in the sky scenario. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I don't think much of those sort of ‘cases’—if we even can called them that—because there's not much you can do with them.

It is claimed that President Clinton tried to uncover what the Government knew about UFOs. He did, not long ago, talk about that alleged effort in some conference in Hong Kong. Here's a thread with the video of him talking about his effort. I find some of his mannerisms and the way he's telling the story peculiar, maybe he's just embarrassed, I don't know. It certainly doesn't prove anything, other than he apparently tried to find out what the Government knew. He seems to dismiss the whole effort and his interest as foolish, though. Or at least that's what he presented to people.

Since you believe there is a "cover up" designed and implemented by the US Government, why would they fantasize the whole scenario? The cover up cover up theory? To create a cult following?

Yes, I think the Government is covering up something. karl 12 pointed out in his post the Condon report. Based on the analysis of the report, what we now know and what was going behind the scenes, I believe there's strong evidence to think they definitely wanted to cover up something. That something, however, might've been simply their interest in UFOs—that they were publicly denying at the time, and since—or their ignorance about the phenomenon. It doesn't necessarily have to be, for example, a cover up of recovered alien craft and bodies in Roswell.

I'm not sure if the Government “fantasized the whole scenario,” what I know is that in that particular case, an Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent seems to have done that. Was he ordered to create that specific narrative? Was it up to him to create and fabricate whatever he thought was necessary to get Paul Bennewitz's attention away from Kirtland AFB? We'll probably never know.

Is the Government actively spreading disinformation and creating a UFO myth? I don't know. We do have, however, a documented case where, sanctioned by the Air Force, an agent effectively did that.

Converge I can tell you know a lot about the subject, I'd like to hear your hypothetical conclusion on all this if you don't mind. I know you don't want to. But in your own words, what is going on that we don't know about? You must have some theories. Please give it to me in one sentence if you can.

We have a possible recovery of Alien bodies at Roswell, we have giant motherships hovering silently over cities then disappearing from sight instantly, we potentially might be getting disinfo on the Moon all along, we have evidence that you presented the US Government created a disinfo campaign that more or less created an alien connection to scare someone off.

What is going on???

We have regular science spending serious time studying Time Travel, Holograms, Invisibility, Alternative Energy, studying extremophiles, planning future missions to the Moons of Saturn, new designs to space engineering, revisiting ancient history. The Ancient Astronaut Theory is HUGE nowadays.

Where are we going???

Between my two paragraphs, what is going on??

Great thread. If not, as stated, one of the best level headed posts about the UFO phenomena I have read on ATS.

Maybe someone should compare his feelings toward the subject to religions, such as Christianity, after all, there is no real proof of the origins of many religions either, though people certainly believe the stories and characters in those as well.
In my opinion Ufology is more or less a religion, if anything, though it has no gods, but it has its beliefs none the less.
I recently watched a show called Danny Dyer - I Want to believe in UFOs. He was a British guy who wanted to believe in UFOs and went on a search across the UK and US. He eventually found so called 'proof' that was himself seeing what he called a UFO ( though to me it was nothing more then a satellite going across the sky viewed with infa red night vision goggles ) but the whole experience to him turned out very spiritual, and he even said this.
Ufology is nothing more then a modern religion, and some people have made it into religions even.
In m opinion, the government may have allowed such leaks and so forth for a simple reason. The more people that believe Groom lake and area 51 is involved with UFOs and EBE's, the better. It covers up what probably really goes on there. That is the real development of advanced war machines for use by the US to invade and keep the war machine ahead of the rest of the world.
The blackbird stealth bombers was 30 years ahead of its time during its first years of testing, and mistaken many times as a UFO.
Imagine what they have out there now, flying around. If people report it as a strange light over groom lake, or a UFO somewhere else, well thats better then someone reporting it as an experimental aircraft, which would probably arouse more suspicion. Most people think UFO enthusiasts are nut bags, which when your trying to fly advance aircraft around the country or world even, is a great way to do it under cover. The more people that think this is the case the better for advance aircraft development. Must be skunk works dream to have this happen.

Just my 2c anyway.

Very informative level-headed thread, S & F..

What I believe in after all this talk,

- ETs and ET ships exist.

- We have been and are constantly being visited by ETs (Yes, we don't have an alien in a jar nor a flying saucer at a musem) Gravity was too unreal to understand when it was discovered and it took A LONG time and some still don't understand it until today..

- Some governments have made contact with ETs

- It is in the best interest of every power to cover-up, no power wants to show the masses that it is in-fact, POWERLESS..

- ETs have been mentioned in almost every religion, all lands, all time periods, etc..

- ETs have been monitoring our planet for a long time awaiting a war.

- Us humans will experience our first contact with ETs at a point where nuclear missiles are flying in the sky above our heads.. Only then we will be saved..

- ETs will join the poor-enslaved-rightous-few against the powerless powerful PTB..

You want proof? Read what I've read, live what I've lived, and become me.. I assure you, you will believe it..

Originally posted by TheWretched
In my opinion Ufology is more or less a religion, if anything, though it has no gods, but it has its beliefs none the less.

Several posters before you also mentioned the religion-UFO link. While I think there is some validity to this observation, it is clearly not the case for all of UFOlogy.

For example, Kenneth Arnold (who may have played a large role in kicking off this phenomenon) saw something he didn't understand. I don't think he did anything other than report exactly what he saw to the best of his ability, and I don't think there was any religious intent at all.

Similarly the OP described a UFO sighting which could not be explained. UFOs really exist as there are genuine, honest sightings like this which are difficult to find prosaic explanations for. And there's no religion involved in these two examples. In fact I think the vast majority of UFO reports are not fabricated in any way, but people honestly reporting seeing things they can't explain.

Where the religion aspect comes into play, is what people choose to do with their interpretation of these reports. For example, some people come to conclusions about the UFOs as being alien, or interdimensional, or time travelers, or pick another explanation, which is not supported by the facts. I think converge did an excellent job in the OP (all 3 of them) in explaining why it's unwise to jump to any conclusions about what the UFOs are without facts to back up those conclusions.

So kudos to converge for explaining how we can keep an open mind to UFOs and only draw conclusions based on facts and evidence. This is the non-religious approach to studying UFOs so I wouldn't say that all UFOlogy is a religion of we follow converge's sound advice.

However, some people do form "religious beliefs" about UFOs contrary to the recommendations converge made to base conclusions on facts, and this is the segment of the population where you could describe the UFO beliefs as religious.

Thanks converge for trying to convert people from following UFO religion, to following UFO science, the former which can be a bit embarrassing to the field (which we need fewer of) but the latter a valid scientific pursuit (which we need more of).

reply to post by Arbitrageur
Well expressed A. The study of UFOs would benefit in credibility through an improved scientific perspective. On the other hand, it could become as interesting as watching paint dry too! I've posted about this 'curse' several times on ATS, it encapsulates the past 60/70 years of UFO phenomena. We can only hope that the future will shed more light on UFOs...and that Klass is wrong...

THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT OF PHILIP J. KLASS

To ufologists who publicly criticize me, ... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath:

THE UFO CURSE: No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

Philip J. Klass

reply to post by Kandinsky
Good quote Kandinsky... but that curse doesn't apply to me since i never criticized Klass publicly, not that I believe in curses anyway. But I see what you're getting at.

I would say to some extent, that's not true. For example, as the US government has declassified old documents, I learn more about what the government USED TO KNOW about UFOs back when those documents were classified. But I think it's true that I'll die never knowing all the CURRENT information the US government has about UFOs.

And I do know more about some UFOs today, like this one:


www.abovetopsecret.com...

This video however is one of few that seem to prove that UFO`s are reall and cant be mistaken.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Seriously.. some of you see landing lights like these "all the time?" I find that very hard to believe. I've seen no plane with landing lights this bright. At that brightness, it would be fairly close. You'd be able to EASILY see the wings of the aircraft, even if seen from the front. In Denver, I see a ton of planes every single day. NONE of them look like that. It also moves from left to right. If the plane was actually banking or turning, the light would change in brightness, yet it doesn't change at all. With the filter on, it doesn't look anything like an airplane. And then it simply vanishes? Planes also don't have the tendency to do this.

In that thread we have quite a few "witnesses" not to the actual sighting but all watching the same video of the UFO sighting, and several of them go to great lengths to explain all the characteristics of the sighting that prove it can't be a plane:

-it hovers for a long time, and airplanes don't hover
-there are no wings visible and airplanes have wings
-it suddenly disappears and re-appears, like phasing in and out of our dimension- airplanes don't do that
-The lights don't look anything like airplane lights,
-etc.
so there's a long list of reasons why it can't be a plane.

Then Phage posted a video which explained the UFO. So I've already defied Klass's curse: "you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from." For at least that one UFO, thanks to Phage I now know what it really is and where it came from. But I'll never know what all of them are so to that extent, Klass's curse is probably right.

[edit on 1-2-2010 by Arbitrageur]