The Modern UFO Myth and Imminent Disclosure

Excellent thread, S&F.

This is a sensible and informative thread, dealing with nothing more than hard fact.

I will say that since reading through a lot of the information released by the British MoD, my personal belief is that there are UFOs flying around in our skies, they are not ours and the government doesn't have a bloody clue what the hell they are. This reason alone would be an explanation as to why the governments have covered up information. They don't want the people or other governments to know that they have absolutely no control over these objects penetrating their air space.

I think most of what you have said is true and that any information that has been released regarding government conspiracies, secret bases and alien collusion are all probably mis-information.

At the end of the day though, who the hell knows? All we can do is look at the facts and draw conclusions based on what we percieve to be the strongest evidence. And herein lies the problem...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
However, some people do form "religious beliefs" about UFOs contrary to the recommendations converge made to base conclusions on facts, and this is the segment of the population where you could describe the UFO beliefs as religious.

Arbitrageur -they sure do.

Heres discussing Kevin Randle discussing how 'mindless dogmatism' exists on both sides of the fence:



Cheers.

I'm right on board with you. I think the government has an idea of what or where they came from. But I doubt that any substantial communication has taken place yet. I think they may have recovered some tech. and used it in the military sector. Just look at how far we've come in the past 50 years. Now compare the technological advancements from the 1700's to the 1940's. It was slow and steady, as opposed to quick, and constantly evolving.

And why should the government share what they know about the subject? I think they've said all they can without shattering reality. Most UFO's are ours, I can guarantee that. There are so many contractors out there trying to get products into production with the military, and there's so much money in the military-industrial sector, as we were warned by Eisenhower.

As for all the information on Bob Lazar, I think a lot of us already know that most of that is fabricated. Whether or not that was through a disinfo. campaign, or one man's quest for publicity has yet to be determined, but it's obvious that everything traces back to Paul Bennewitz. All of the information regarding Dulce comes from ONE source, and a few drunk reservation dwelling individuals jumping on the bandwagon. People hike back there all the time, and have never seen anything out of the ordinary. It's just fantasy.

It is a sad statement about this field when someone makes an appeal for us to stick to hard data and facts, to disregard fantasy and rumor, and treat this subject with maturity and many of the responses defend those same fantasy and rumors. Is it possible to have a serious, rational discussion about this subject?

reply to post by converge


Excellent Post Converge!

Here's a point of view that I don't think has been discussed. Why do we expect the government or governments to disclose the existence of aliens and why don't aliens simply disclose them selves to the world? I mean how hard would that actually be.

I agree with your view that all we really have are some eye witness accounts which some are surely credible, but we don't have any hard physical evidence. I believe intelligent life has to be out there, but until I see physical evidence, all I've got or we've got is a probability.

Why won't extra terrestrials reveal themselves?

reply to post by davec0021
Therein is the lie that disclosure stands on. It presupposes contact has been made with a superior species...and all the technology it represents. Despite this, such a powerful species is unable to reveal itself without the say-so of a government (typically the USA) that doesn't represent the population of Earth.

I can't recall any account that explains this gaping flaw in the logic of disclosure, exopolitics or those making money on the back of it. There's a whole lotta noise about it, but the signal's weak as hell.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Therein is the lie that disclosure stands on. It presupposes contact has been made with a superior species...and all the technology it represents. Despite this, such a powerful species is unable to reveal itself without the say-so of a government (typically the USA) that doesn't represent the population of Earth.

The government is a scape-goat for the Disclosurists and the supposed cover-up is an excuse. When their attempts to get the truth are frustrated, when their predictions of "disclosure" don't come true, they point to the government and say, "Don't blame me, it's they're fault."

It's as cynical as it is dangerous. The Disclosurists are preying on frustration, distrust and anger towards the government. When they accuse them of outrageous crimes, up to and including crimes against humanity, they are only feeding that anger. There is plenty of government fraud, waste, corruption and abuse to be angry about. The Disclosure movement serves, in it's own little way, to distract from real abuses. It is one thing to be angry because of genuine crimes and abuse, it is another to stir up anger through lies.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Thanks for pointing that out Kandinsky. I have read Salla's Exopolitics book, and I kind of gathered that. Does make you wonder about all of these disclosure folks and what they are willing to believe on hear-say.

Recently I watched Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy interview Greer and argue about whether ET's intentions were sinister or not. I certainly take Bill and Kerry with a grain of salt but do find them entertaining. Needless to say if disclosure is built on this hypothetical treaty, wouldn't aliens be risking misrepresentation by not making their presence known? If you're willing to play sides in politics and give forbidden technology here on earth surely you wouldn't give damn whether you revealed yourself or not.

I would even go so far that if the United States disclosed, I may interpret it as propaganda to gain the upper political hand over all other nations on earth.

So my personal opinion is and I repeat just my opinion is that aliens won't reveal themselves as they view earth as too primitive or they actually do have sinister intentions, either way disclosure isn't coming any time soon and or if it does come, it will be too late.

Back in 1976, one early evening in October, I and a friend of mine witnessed 'lights' in the sky. We were not the only witnesses, another person - a total stranger to both of us, was stood on the pavement looking up, and we simply followed his gaze and saw the lights.

Three globes, one main globe and two slightly smaller ones, orange coloured and blinking, were dancing about themselves. To my own perception, they seemed to float about with a controlled purpose, nothing about them was threatening...it was just a display of presence. As they waltzed around each other, they would seemingly converge and then, after a pause, would disengage from each other in different directions.

The smaller ones, zipped about at high speed around the main globe which moved slolwy on a straight line, sometimes going behind a small cloud and then re-emerging maintaining its vector. On occasions, one of the smaller globes would zip to a complete stop and just float there, then suddenly fly into the main globe and disappear, only to re-emerge again less than a minute later. I would say we watched the globes and their unusual aeronautical flight behaviour for at least ten minutes, but as my friend and I were on a time schedule, we had to leave.

I have no idea at all as to what they were, so I guess they fit the description of UFO precisely...that is, 'unidentified flying object'. Were they of extraterrestrial origin? I cannot say. Their flight characteristics certainly implied them to be other than man-made, and as far as I was aware, man had nothing remotely capable of matching the maneuvers of the globes we witnessed, especially so back in '76, and I believe that still stands today.

We have aircraft that can fly fast, but they cannot stop instantly at high-speed on a sixpence, float there, and then just as suddenly, zip off in another vector direction, again at high speed...no build up of acceleration, just instant high velocity. Our physiology is not structured to undertake such maneuvers, and we cannot sheild our bodies from the adverse effects of high velocity straightline or curve vectors. Of course...all these thoughts and thinkings are simply my own suppositions from the implication of the globe's maneuvers.

That was the only time in my life I have ever witnessed anything like that. I was sixteen at the time, and have not seen anything like it since. As for accepting extraterrestrial visitations to our planet, I am still on the fence, undecided and unsure. I do subscribe to the notion that other intelligent life forms exist on other planets elsewhere in the universe, and probably also in migratory craft, but that is simply my opinion. The recent release of British UFO documents over the last few years has leant support to my opinion, but have in no way provided exclusive proof beyond doubt.

I cannot see 'disclosure' ever being given voluntarily. I cannot envisage the American government openly stating that some UFO's are of extraterrestrial origin, because it is a nation embedded in militaristic paranoia of its own security. America does not have the right to decide things for the rest of the nations on the planet. Disclosure will come when, and only when, some extraterrestrial visitation or event negates and nullifies the secrecy surrounding the phenomenon...it will be the 'visitors' themselves that bring (or force) eventual disclosure: and that's assuming that some of the UFO phenomenon is of extraterrestrial origin?

Contact between extraterrestrials and humans will be (I feel) a global event. It would not make sense for any contact to occur in secrecy with just a few military representatives. In fact, you would not want that, as that would bring feelings of suspicion upon the visitors. No. A benign race of visitors wanting to make contact with us, would take it's time and make patient and gradual overtures towards us globally.

It would firstly monitor our electromagnetic communications, TV and radio signals, and learn something about us, our cultures and mindsets. It would take tentative steps to raise our awareness of their presence, and when they feel that we may be ready to accept their reality with as little disruption to our societies as possible, then they will disclose themselves to us fully. Such disclosure may take decades to occur, for they would need to psychologically 'acclimatise' us to their existence...and that ultimately is the real issue.

If we put aside, for a second, all these unverified stories, with what, objectively and documented are we left with?

The UFO phenomenon doesn't begin and end with the "Aviary" group though...

Roswell is a good example. Well documented, and proof of a government coverup. Not proof of aliens, but proof they lied about what was recovered. And, the facts with Mogul don't add up, so we're still left wondering. However, we do have numerous officers testifying to the debris, the flights to Air Materiel Command, etc. are documented. So, whatever crashed, it was something strange enough to be still classified, and studied at the top foreign tech bases of the day.

There's the Hill Case, where an abductee correctly identified stars (including their COLORS) when the stars were visible from a different hemisphere in which she lived, and when astronomers didn't even know the colors yet (was verified later)).

There are countless BlueBook cases which remain unsolved, despite the documented and admitted efforts of some BlueBook personnel (including former leaders and advisors) to coverup such incidents.

I don't believe the government knows all that much about what the aliens are after, or even much about their tech, but there are indications that point to them knowing far more than they claim (and being far more interested than they claim).

As for Schneider's, Cooper's, etc. claims...most of the names you mentioned are pretty low on the credibility scale. There really isn't much evidence for the underground alien bases, etc. ideas they spread, and when examined, their personal claims have untruths and verifiable lies.

Originally posted by Gazrok
As for Schneider's, Cooper's, etc. claims...most of the names you mentioned are pretty low on the credibility scale. There really isn't much evidence for the underground alien bases, etc. ideas they spread, and when examined, their personal claims have untruths and verifiable lies.

And that hasn't stopped people from talking about them here and their claims ad nauseum.

I see you didn't explicitly name John Lear. Is he included in the 'etc' or do you consider Lear's credibility and claims above those of Schneider and Cooper?

Originally posted by Gazrok
There are countless BlueBook cases which remain unsolved, despite the documented and admitted efforts of some BlueBook personnel (including former leaders and advisors) to coverup such incidents.

Well said.


Comprehensive catalogue of 1,500 Project Bluebook UFO unknowns (pdf)



Even the some of the incidents they did explain away have no real correlation with the facts of the case.

"As a result of several trips to project Bluebook,I´ve had an opportunity to examine quite carefully and in detail the types of reports that are made by Bluebook personnel.In most cases,I have found that theres almost no correlation between so-called "evaluations and explanations" that are made by Bluebook and the facts of the case...
There are hundreds of good cases in the Air Force files that should have led to top-level scientific scrutiny of this problem,years ago,yet these cases have been swept under the rug in a most disturbing way by Project Bluebook investigators and their consultants."

Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona

USAF "force fit" debunks.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Gazrok

There's the Hill Case, where an abductee correctly identified stars (including their COLORS) when the stars were visible from a different hemisphere in which she lived, and when astronomers didn't even know the colors yet (was verified later)).

The Betty Hill starmap was debunked a long time ago. The late Carl Sagan explains it in an episode of Cosmos, he starts talking about the starmap at 4:00.



[edit on 1-2-2010 by cripmeister]

This amazing "Einstein Antigravity" article about John Dering's research has fantastic details - Dering retested the "Nazi Bell" that Nick Cook had researched. Dering discovered how mercury cancels out gravity.... and this is used for the black triangle propulsion.

So now we have it: Post Nazi technology of triangle antigravity propulsion based on the principles of Tesla:

www.americanantigravity.com...

Originally posted by cripmeister

Originally posted by Gazrok

There's the Hill Case, where an abductee correctly identified stars (including their COLORS) when the stars were visible from a different hemisphere in which she lived, and when astronomers didn't even know the colors yet (was verified later)).

The Betty Hill starmap was debunked a long time ago. The late Carl Sagan explains it in an episode of Cosmos, he starts talking about the starmap at 4:00.

There are a couple of good points in that video:
-Sagan says that if we found out we were being visited, nobody would like it better than him, therefore he's not a skeptic who doesn't believe there is ET life, or who doesn't believe that their technology could be way ahead of ours allowing them to travel here, to the contrary he favors those possibilities as likely.
-The key point about the starmap is that nobody was able to find a better fit. There should actually be lots of good fits to that star map at different perspectives in space.
-He also uses his famous catch phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. While there's a great deal of detailed information in the lengthy OP, if I had to sum it up, I'd say that phrase is a pretty good fit.

If you want to believe, the Hill case gives you something to believe. If you want to know, then it's really lacking in any hard evidence (in reference to another of Sagan's observations in my signature).

There was other evidence too like the ring of warts around Barney Hill's genitals, but I never saw a photograph of those to see what the ring shape looked like, and absent that I would tend to think that warts generally have a pretty earthly explanation, including a special type associated with the genitals (HPV).

Now if only they had grabbed the knob off of one of the control panels, we could analyze that to see if the isotopes in the knob occurred on earth. I made a note to myself that if I'm ever abducted, I should try to bring a small sample of the ship back with me so I'll have more evidence than just a starmap like the Hills had.

I think we are at the start of a discloser

Stanton Friedman has quoted Carl Sagan as saying about UFOs (and I'm paraphrasing here) that there are some interesting cases and some reliable cases, but there are no cases that are both interesting and reliable.

If Sagan actually said this, then he was either poorly informed or intentionally dishonest. Nobody of his intelligence could be well versed in the literature and come to such a conclusion.

www.myspace.com...

Originally posted by Orkojoker
Stanton Friedman has quoted Carl Sagan as saying about UFOs (and I'm paraphrasing here) that there are some interesting cases and some reliable cases, but there are no cases that are both interesting and reliable.

I suppose it also depends on what "interesting and reliable" means in context. Is that referring to sightings of a craft of alien origin, or just a UFO? Because if the context refers to the sightings of craft from (insert title of book here), I would tend to agree with the OP and with Sagan, that the statement is correct. If he meant there are no interesting and reliable sightings of UFOs then I would tend to agree with you that such a claim would seem to be unfounded, there are good reliable and interesting cases of things we can't explain. But there are no good interesting and reliable cases of alien craft, to the best of my knowledge. That was the case in 1975 and is still the case in 2010. However, I would question an interpretation that he meant "UFO" instead of "alien craft", based on the title of the book that quote comes from.

The quote is from Sagan's 1975 book "Other Worlds" but I don't have that book, if any of you reading this have it maybe you can check page 113 and help put this quote in context for us, as context could make a big difference here. ( www.ufoevidence.org... ) Without other information, I don't think it's a wholly inappropriate leap of logic to use the title of the book to put the quote from the book in context but if I'm wrong about that please correct me.

Can you cite 3 cases that are both interesting and reliable sightings of alien craft? (Since the title of the book is "Other Worlds", there's a strong implication of "alien" just in the book's title, right?) If you are going to make a claim that such cases exist you should at least provide a few examples.

I assume the cases would probably be listed here:

The ATS UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory

So we don't need any case details, just the year and name of the case as listed there.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Arbitrageur]

I see you didn't explicitly name John Lear. Is he included in the 'etc' or do you consider Lear's credibility and claims above those of Schneider and Cooper?

Yes, he's included.

The Betty Hill starmap was debunked a long time ago. The late Carl Sagan explains it in an episode of Cosmos, he starts talking about the starmap at 4:00.

I can't watch the video where I'm posting from, but if I recall, he comments only on the pattern of the stars, not factoring in the colors (a convenient omission by debunkers of this case). Betty identified which of the stars were yellow, like our sun. Those other match possibilities evaporate when the star colors are calculated in. So "debunked" is quite the matter of opinion. In addition, I'm not so sure Carl Sagan isn't in with the secret keepers. I've always seen him as kind of a Hillenkoeter-type figure, but that's my personal opinion.

If you want to believe, the Hill case gives you something to believe. If you want to know, then it's really lacki

I personally feel most abduction cases appear to be bunk, but the Hill Case is much, much different. You have their initial reluctance to go forward with it, their honest search for answers, and that they were seen by one of the world's most renowned psychologists (the Army's leading psychologist in fact). There's the star map, radar contact, and other evidence that all lends more credence to the Hill's account than your run of the mill abduction claim.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by Gazrok]

I got some U2U's asking questions about Richard Doty, so I thought of posting some details about Doty some will definitely find intriguing.

In this post cripmeister mentions that Doty worked as a consultant for X-Files. In 2005 Robert Collins published a book called Exempt From Disclosure with Doty as a co-author. From the “About the Author” section of the description of the book:

Rick C. Doty: In the spring of 1978 he was recruited by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) to become an agent. He passed all the necessary requirements and tests and was sent to the AFOSI Academy in Washington, D.C. Successfully graduating from the academy he was sent to District 17, OSI, Kirtland AFB New Mexico in May 1979. During that first year he was briefed into a special program. The program involved the collection of intelligence and counter-intelligence information for UFOs and "other foreign intelligence." Recent accomplishments (along with other "associates") include consulting work for both the X-Files and Spielberg's "Taken."

Both Doty's father (Charles Doty) and uncle (Edward Doty) were in the Air Force. Major Edward Doty, who was an intelligence officer, we know to have been involved with certain projects that make you raise an eyebrow.

From the final report of Project Twinkle, which was claimed to be “a project initiated by the USAF to investigate green "fireballs" of light in the skies of the South Western States of the USA,” we can read that Maj. Edward Doty was head of the UFO investigations at Holloman AFB in 1951.

On 27 August 1951, developments concerning aerial phenomena were discussed at Holloman AFB. Lt. John Albert previously associated with the project had now been transferred from Holloman. Therefore, the project was discussed with Major Edward A. Doty who had assumed responsibility. Major Doty, who seemed to be thoroughly acquainted with the situation, advised that there have been very few reports of aerial phenomena in the vicinity of Holloman since September 1950. (pp. 10-11)

Also of interest:

It was learned from Major Doty, that Col. Baynes, C.O. at HAFB, no longer felt there was any justification for the allocation of funds for maintaining systematic investigation. Rather, he provided that the project be maintained on a standby basis and without official Air Force status, This entails assignment of an officer (Major Doty) to collect incoming reports, make periodic review of the files "for patterns or persistent characteristics in the reports", maintain liaison with OSI, Provost Marshall's Office and any other agencies whose activities may serve to provide information concerning future aerial phenomena developments. (p. 12)

And there's connections to Project Mogul:

The document below shows that Cpt. Lawrence Dyvad, one of the mentioned participants in the July 9, 1947 Roswell crash/saucer-debunking balloon demonstration at Alamogordo AAF (later Holloman AFB), helped take a UFO report in 1951. Little else is known about Cpt. Dyvad other than he also worked for Project Mogul at the time, but the other report-taker, Major Edward A. Doty became head of UFO investigations at Holloman in the summer of 1951 and was the liaison officer with AFOSI (Air Force Office of Special Investigations, or AF counterintelligence). (...)

In a 1959 letter reproduced in the 1995 Air Force Roswell report (Attach. 4), Doty stated he came to Holloman in Feb. 1948 as the Mogul balloon Project Officer. He went into great detail about his continued involvement in various capacities with the balloon projects there, but somehow failed to mention that his primary responsibilities were actually as a intelligence officer and UFO investigator. (source)

In this document titled “Report on Project Mogul” under “Synopsis of Balloon Research Findings” the 1959 letter is referenced as the source for the information “that an experimental balloon project was being conducted at nearby Alamogordo Army Airfield (now Holloman AFB, NM) during the summer of 1947.”

The current investigation discovered that an experimental balloon project was being conducted at nearby Alamogordo Army Airfield (now Holloman AFB, NM) during the summer of 1947. (4) (...)
________________
(...)
4. Ltr, Lt Col Edward A. Doty to Mr David Bushnell, Mar 3, 1959.

Like cripmeister pointed out, the rabbit hole seems to be deep indeed.

[edit on 2-2-2010 by converge]