Iranian Election Protesters Executed

reply to post by SLAYER69


Which came first the chicken or the egg?

How does that picture prove that it was the government that inflicted those injuries.

The SAVAK wouldn't think two seconds about pulling the trigger on some girl like Nedda to blame it on the regime.

Iranian politics can be brutal, its why we should stay out of them and history shows the more the West meddles in them the more violent they become.

Regardless you don't have a chronoloical order of whether destruction of propert came first or violent reprisals came first.

Chances are destruction of property came first.

Though here in America at the Pittsburgh G-20 we did see the Police use violence against peaceful protesters that damaged no property first but I like to think the Iranians are more civilized than us

Older civilization and all.

All you are trying to do is saying one thing justifies the other for one side.

Protesters are within their rights to destroy property and take foreign funds and directions even thuogh they did not win the election and/or have a majority, but that the government has no right to act against them even though they did not win the election and still have no majority.

The fact is here in the United States if you destroy government or private property in a protest you are going to jail.

If you conspire with foreign elements and to overthrow the lawful elected government you are going to jail and may face execution which happens to be our punishment for treason to.

Finally you have not explained why we would be willing to financially back and morally back Mousavi based on his history, and his history is a pretty grim one.

But it was nice that you felt if you fell back on another out of context picture for the point of some more emotional manipulation and deflection from the hard subjects.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
(this applies for all oppressed peoples, regardless of nationality)

What I don't understand is the Iranian citizens are willing to protest and risk life and limb during the protests. But when it come to a revolution and an attempt to free themselves of this regime, they stand down. I realize their govt. has tanks, bombs, etc. as deterrents, but IF they truly want to be free, then sacrifice must be made, no? I guess that the citizens of Iran have just not been pushed to that "boiling-point" yet.

The fact is the Iranian People have shown on three occassions in the last 100 years they will revolt when they are all in agreement more or less a revolt is needed.

As I have tried to display much to the dissapointment of some people Iranians are a long way off from being in agreement on the need to revolt.

What we have here largely are two opposition candidates supporters who are upset they did not win the election. They are not looking to over throw the Theocracy either, or the Mullahs.

They are trying to get their candidates into power and the CIA and other intelligence Agencies like the MOSSAD are funding them simply to create unrest in Iran.

Unrest that is not growing because most of the citizens are in fact happy with the regime.

The fact that you or I would not want to live under it does not mean the majority of Iran that fought a revolution in their entirety to place it into power are opposed to it.

We are not getting an accurate picture inside of Iran and the truth is that the protestors don't have enough support within the broader ellements of Iranian society to stage a coup or overthrow. They themselves would simply be overthrown even if they could succeed because they don't have broad support.

reply to post by Aggie Man


This post makes abundantly clear, everything that everyone has been talking about.

Appealing to people's emotions in order to facilitate a pro-violence interventionist environment.

Showing pictures of bloody faces and a few dead bodies isn't going to make me want to support a coup or military invasion of Iran. Or any sort of thoughts regarding that subject. Especially when I can pull 100x (maybe 1000x) of the same types of pictures, showing violence, people dead and crowds of mayhem. All of those pictures in the US, in the UK. I can show pictures and articles of the Army gunning down unarmed college students, or kids getting the snot beaten out of them in the present day.

Again with the pulling of the heart strings to promote an interventionist agenda. In other words, an Imperial agenda. If there ever was a time in history when the bold obvious was right in front everyone's eyes, and the precipice to oblivion lay straight ahead.... then this is it, right now.

Slayer, I feel you do care about the Iranian people, but I completely question your motives. You're perpetuating the imperial war machine, and we don't need anymore of it. The media does enough.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by SyphonX]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

So you're saying that burning material property is justification for killing citizens?

Iranian politics can be brutal, its why we should stay out of them and history shows the more the West meddles in them the more violent they become.

This we can agree.
Now Prove that we were involved with the riots that lead to some deaths..

Regardless you don't have a chronoloical order of whether destruction of propert came first or violent reprisals came first.
Chances are destruction of property came first.

Oh I see, so that makes it alright then I suppose.
The ends justifies the means. I guess.

Though here in America at the Pittsburgh G-20 we did see the Police use violence against peaceful protesters that damaged no property first but I like to think the Iranians are more civilized than us

This is again on topic HOW?

If you conspire with foreign elements and to overthrow the lawful elected government you are going to jail and may face execution which happens to be our punishment for treason to.

I would agree. Now prove that that's the case.

Finally you have not explained why we would be willing to financially back and morally back Mousavi based on his history, and his history is a pretty grim one.

Once again. Show me and any reader where you have proven this to be true. You know eventually the readers even the Bias ones will see through your ploy.

Now please kindly
Put up or Shut up.

But it was nice that you felt if you fell back on another out of context picture for the point of some more emotional manipulation and deflection from the hard subjects.

He's not a deflection. He was a real Human being with a family.



[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


My friend clearly you are in denial. We have provided the CIA hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars with a clear Presidential Directive to destablize the regime.

Are you really asking me to hack government computers to get you classified documents on how they are spending that money?

Do you really imagine that the CIA armed with hundreds of millions of dollars and a Special Presidential Order to destabilize the Iranian regime is not involved in these protests and doing their level best to take advantage of them.

This is where you loose all credibility in putting forth such proposterous stick your head in the sand lets all live in denial notions.

Get serious would you?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This is where you loose all credibility in putting forth such proposterous stick your head in the sand lets all live in denial notions.

Get serious would you?

I'm dead serious.

Provide some proof for your claims.

Talk about denial you can't even admit that some or many of the protesters are Pissed Off at their Government because of what they have done or failed to do.

I have freely admitted that I agree that there are some outside influences working within Iran. But you can't even admit that there is also a very real Grass roots movement by the Iranians themselves.

Talk about denial.
Sheesh!


[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

So you're saying that burning material property is justification for killing citizens?

What I have said time and time again is if you destory state property and are proven to be funded by foreign sources and organized by foreign sources and are trying to actively overthrow a regime, any regime, in any country of the world it constitutes TREASON.

The penalty for Treason in most counties is DEATH.

In reality you have no idea who these men were linked to what faction they represent, and what that factions intentions are, they in fact could be harmful to the Iranian people and Americans as well.

Yours is simply an emotional argument in that people died, its awful when people die, people should never be killed by the state even though Texas executes more people each year than Iran does in TEN.

That simply because they were executed by the state that they are angels with good intentions who didn't do anything wrong and didn't deserve to be punished.

Personally I don't condone the death penalty.

I don't condone people using emotional exploitation to promote a regime change where hundreds of thousands if not millions of Iranians will die.

You simply keep picking out what fragments you can then piece into a half baked question looking to get the half of loaf a bread you want to present.

It's neither intelligent or honest.

Prove the CIA is involved? You really are out there in Right field.

The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert "black" operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com ... CIA sources have leaked to ABC News an alleged covert plan to destabilize the Iranian regime through non-lethal means.

Wow ABC News as a source, that's some real radicals there!

reply to post by SLAYER69

I have freely admitted that I agree that there are some outside influences working within Iran. But you can't even admit that there is also a very real Grass roots movement by the Iranians themselves.

There is no grass roots movements these are opposition political parties upset that their candidates did not win an election!

The Tea Party is a Grass Roots Movement, it is protesting big government, tax and spend government, taxation without representation in Washington.

It is not violently defacing property or throwing molotov cocktails at crowd control police.

It has no candidate that it is trying to promote.

It is not trying to overthrow government it is trying to reform government.

That's a grass roots movement.

Additionally they aren't funded or coordinated by foreign intelligence agencies like the opposition parties in Iran are.

Nor have the opposition parties in Iran put out a clear message like the American Tea Party has of what they want to reform and what they don't like about it?

Got a message from one of them that you can show an agenda that is actually aimed at the benefit of all the Iranian people?

No you don't.

You want proof of the CIA's precise involvement I can't give it to you I am not in the CIA and I won't hack their computers just to make a point for a person living in denial.

The CIA has been involved in every coup and revolution in Iran since the 1950's if you want to imagine they are sitting this one out, even when the President of the United States has ordered them not to, go right ahead.

I guess you like watching wholesale sections of third world countries get bombed and their citizens laying in piles dead on the street and the occassional American coming home in a body bag to set up U.S. Corporation friendly governments?

I don't. I think it sucks!

[edit on 29/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The penalty for Treason in most counties is DEATH.

That's just it. They can slap that logo on anybody and off to the gallows!

In reality you have no idea who these men were linked to what faction they represent, and what that factions intentions are, they in fact could be harmful to the Iranian people and Americans as well.

Agreed and can you prove otherwise?
I see what you're saying. Can you see my point of view?

Yours is simply an emotional argument in that people died, its awful when people die, people should never be killed by the state even though Texas executes more people each year than Iran does in TEN.

Back to your old tricks. You know that whole "Emotional Response" trick get's old very quickly. If the Article was about Texas I'd say let's discuss Texas. BUT IT'S not.

That simply because they were executed by the state that they are angels with good intentions who didn't do anything wrong and didn't deserve to be punished.

Executed "In the Name of God".
Don't forget the thrust of this thread.

Personally I don't condone the death penalty.

No comment.

I don't condone people using emotional exploitation to promote a regime change where hundreds of thousands if not millions of Iranians will die.

Yet you'll support those who will use the Greatest of [emotional exploitation] EXECUTION to maintain power.

You simply keep picking out what fragments you can then piece into a half baked question looking to get the half of loaf a bread you want to present.

I'm not hungry I just ate a bowl of Soup and half a sandwich

Prove the CIA is involved? You really are out there in Right field.

Yes prove it. I know there have been many threads here at ATS that make that claim But seriously prove it. Since we are discussing the rioters. Prove that the CIA pushed them into the streets and forced them to face the barrels of guns over what the CIA dictated to the Iranian people.

OR

Possibly in Addition there could be yet more reasons that should be included in the discussion?

I dunno maybe the Iranian Governments part?

The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert "black" operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com ... CIA sources have leaked to ABC News an alleged covert plan to destabilize the Iranian regime through non-lethal means.

So on one hand you discredit the American Media as being puppets of the Big Bad US Government and yet on the other that's the source of your proof. Gotcha.

Good one.

It's an interesting article. Now again prove there is a direct link.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


There is no grass roots movements these are opposition political parties upset that their candidates did not win an election!

Moussavi Forms ‘Grass-Roots’ Movement in Iran

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — The Iranian opposition leader Mir Hussein Moussavi announced the formation of a new social and political movement on his Web site on Saturday, following through on a promise made last month and defying a renewed government campaign of intimidation aimed at him and his supporters.

The movement is not a political party — which would require a government permit — but a “grass-roots and social network” that will promote democracy and adherence to the law, Mr. Moussavi wrote in a statement on his site. It is to be known as the Green Way of Hope, in deference to the signature bright green color of his campaign for the June 12 presidential election, which he maintains was rigged in favor of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Horrible. This country should not be allowed to build nukes. It's time for Iran to be taken down.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


There is no grass roots movements these are opposition political parties upset that their candidates did not win an election!

Moussavi Forms ‘Grass-Roots’ Movement in Iran

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — The Iranian opposition leader Mir Hussein Moussavi announced the formation of a new social and political movement on his Web site on Saturday, following through on a promise made last month and defying a renewed government campaign of intimidation aimed at him and his supporters.

The movement is not a political party — which would require a government permit — but a “grass-roots and social network” that will promote democracy and adherence to the law, Mr. Moussavi wrote in a statement on his site. It is to be known as the Green Way of Hope, in deference to the signature bright green color of his campaign for the June 12 presidential election, which he maintains was rigged in favor of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

You do understand that piece originates from the United Arab Emirates and not Iran.

Further that it is an intention to establish one a Grass Roots orginization known as the Green Way of Hope which a google search will show does not exist!

Neither did this non-existent grass roots movement exist in the former protests.

Nor are these protests continuing.

The American Tea Party that doesn't blow up and burn buildings, and doesn't attack crowd control police, and doesn't have foreign intelligence agencies funding and directing them has an event almost every week.

They also have a nice web site and a clear message that they put out themselves and don't have a news paper in the United Arab Emirates announce it for them!

Before you trip yourself up here, obviously Mousavi does have a website and it can be accessed or they wouldn't be making that report, unless of course the report is an entire work of fiction by the Pahlavi family that has been traced to funding most of these stories.

Not only can you not prove that the CIA isn't involved you can't even prove that the men executed aren't linked to a Western Intelligence Agency.

Your Original Article does tell us this though

Some of the nine death sentences, according to the TV Web site report, were related to deadly clashes on Dec. 27. At least eight people were killed that day in battles between police and protesters on the streets. It was the worst violence since authorities launched a harsh crackdown against the opposition in the summer.

Wow so lets get this straight when your protests turn deadly and result in the death of other people you might actually be sentenced to death too? Just like in the heart of Texas?

Based on the facts of this article I think the people of Texas need a regime change!

If the United States openly attacks and invades yet another country (if they go for Iran, they will pick at least 1 more), then I will make any supporter of it a complete enemy.

The war drumming that I am seeing simply transcends logic, morality or reason, and it is just plain barbarism. You are my enemy, as you are to many others.

These 1 liner "get rid of Iran" posts with a few stars is very telling, and very disturbing.

This is what I'm talking about, this is what everyone is talking about, Slayer.

Your, "Who me?" attitude towards this is ridiculous. You turn around and claim you are for the people in Iran and accuse everyone questioning your motives (the media train motives) as being anti-American and not understanding. Yeah, "we don't get you", Slayer.

So why is it you never respond to these short posts about going to war with Iran? I guess that doesn't bug you, does it..? You're making yourself pretty transparent... the, "Who.. me? Nah.." approach isn't going to cut it anymore.


[edit on 29-1-2010 by SyphonX]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The Tea Party is a Grass Roots Movement, it is protesting big government, tax and spend government, taxation without representation in Washington. It is not violently defacing property or throwing molotov cocktails at crowd control police. It has no candidate that it is trying to promote.

Right here is where my eyes opened up to what you were saying. In the media we are always shown the brave opposition standing up to violent riot control police. Yet, the opposition is usually throwing rocks or flaming bottles.

I never once questioned what was going on. I always listened to what the reporter said was going on and followed suit with an emotional response. Just like they wanted!

Your position on this matter is amazing. I seriously can understand it. I am going to be looking into whether there really is a legitimate "popular" movement working toward regime change there. It could very well be that we are being shown what they want us to see.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well, dear Proto... I'm not sure how soccer Moms got mixed up in this thread, but I will agree with you that those girl scout Thin Mint cookies are hard to resist. Whether that is because of the “hot Mamas” or the adorable kids or because they are really yummy, I'm not sure, but I do know that [on behalf of my niece] my Sis conned me into buying more boxes than I wanted and as hot as she is, I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason I bought them.
____________________________

On to Iran, the more contested topic of the thread... More specifically, Reform...
____________________________

Since the recent presidential [S]elections, the international community has had a real glimpse of the brutality and inhumanity of the Islamic Regime of Iran. We've seen peaceful protestors beaten, arrested and shot on the streets. We've heard reports of illegal arrests, torture and rape of protestors in Islamic Regime prisons. Scores of protestors have lost their lives under torture while at least three protestors have been sentenced to death because of their participation in the post [S]election protests.

What the international community needs to realize is that what we've seen in the past few months is nothing new. The Islamic Regime has been systematically arresting, torturing, raping and executing dissidents for the past 30 years.

Iranian people have not been silent in the face of severe persecution and brutality. For the past 30 years students, writers, journalists, women, workers, teachers and doctors just to name a few groups, have been fighting against the Regime in various ways. Iranian dissidents abroad have been fighting along their compatriots who are inside the country to make sure the voices of Iranian people are heard internationally. (1)

The opinion put forth in this article postulates that the Iranian people do not want Reform, but Regime change and have been fighting for it in various ways for the past 30 years. That includes fighting against Khatami, Ahmadinejad, Mousavi, and Karoubi because what some are failing to recognize is that the pro-Reform camp is essentially synonymous with the pro-Regime camp. The people did not willingly choose who to vote for, the candidate was selected for them... (hmmm, where have we heard this before?) and the ever-growing chasm between hardliners and reformers who dominate Iran's parliament with the students and certain portions of the populace, continues to grow.

The growing separation between these two groups is having several repercussions. It has brought into sharper focus the divergent objectives of some of their members. Most reformers in parliament and the ministries seek to reconcile the democratic and theocratic aspects of Iran's constitution -essentially, to reform the existing Islamic system of governance in a democratic direction. By contrast, some students question whether the two are fundamentally compatible -and would like to steer the Islamic republic toward what in effect would be a secular democracy.

An increasingly independent student movement has become vulnerable to hardliners' charges of links to foreign plots and exiled opposition groups, allegations intended to discredit the movement with the Iranian public. A more isolated student movement could become radicalized, giving hardliners a pretext to launch a massive crackdown. (2)

Given the increasing number of players in Iranian politics both internal parties and interested international parties, I fail to see how it can be argued that the point put forth in this OP, that it is possible (probable) that Regime change protesters are indeed, the people...

Now, that is not to discount the fact that there is opposition, but how can anyone outside of Iran know the numbers? We can't. To discount the protesters as a minority is premature and to discount the growing opposition to the status-quo as an Agency-backed destabilization project is to discount the very real views of many of regular citizens and to discount the many that have put their lives on the line and who have died for an ideal (that we in the US/West should be able to understand) ... Freedom from a hard-line Regime and the power to have some say in the direction their country takes in the future.


(1)

(2)

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You mean after they over throw the puppet government already installed... Also you didn't happen to comment on the whole free speech deal and if this was that country you'd be getting lined up as well, suppose thats just too on the money for you to answer it. Deny deflect Avoid.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Neither did this non-existent grass roots movement exist in the former protests.

Nor are these protests continuing.

Stay tuned my friend.

Stay tuned.

Iran Green Movement promising big February protests

Opposition Green Movement activists in major cities around Iran are playing a cat-and-mouse game with authorities seeking to shut down their operations ahead of Feb. 11, a revolutionary anniversary that the activists are hoping to use for the country's largest street protests yet..

Iran students boycott exams to protest disputed election

Students in Iran have been boycotting end-of-term exams as they continue to show their opposition to the outcome of last year's disputed presidential election.

The move comes a month after thousands of students held street demonstrations to protest against President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election last June.

Students have been at the forefront of the protests which initially saw millions of Iranians taking to the streets to demonstrate against the result of the poll. The numbers of protesters declined greatly when a severe crackdown was launched.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by LadySkadi

Well, dear Proto... I'm not sure how soccer Moms got mixed up in this thread, but I will agree with you that those girl scout Thin Mint cookies are hard to resist. Whether that is because of the “hot Mamas” or the adorable kids or because they are really yummy, I'm not sure, but I do know that [on behalf of my niece] my Sis conned me into buying more boxes than I wanted and as hot as she is, I'm pretty sure that isn't the reason I bought them.

There truly is a Girl Scout Cookie Conspiracy afoot in the land and frankly at the rate many waistlines grow during Girl Scout Cookie Season I dare say it as a far more significant conspiracy with a much deadlier potential to Americans than any threat of Iran or Iranian Nuclear Weapons. Unless the Iranians are developing a new improved Thin Mint Cookie I think it’s foolish to ignore the mounting threat of the Girl Scout Cookie Conspiracy.

As you have mentioned they attack with a near irresistible combination of hot soccer moms and cute little girls who aren’t above bringing their cute little puppies and kittens with them. Everything is about cuteness, yet all the calories, cholesterol, saturated fats and chemical preservatives in those boxes are not cute at all.

They do contrive to get you to buy way more cookies than any sensible person would eat and fill them with delicious dyes and chemicals that make them highly addictive. Like a Junkie on a binge you will keep gobbling and gobbling until all the cookies are gone!

How sinister is the Girl Scout Cookie Conspiracy? I had a box sent to a DNA testing facility and contrary to how they are advertised there are actually no Girl Scouts in the cookies! In fact no human DNA at all, so clearly the deception runs incredibly deep!

Is it any wonder that the latest Iranian reports are timed to coincide with Girl Scout Cookie Season? Are these stories and reports merely meant to rivet us to computers and TV’s while we absentmindedly partake in luscious Lemon Crèmes, Thin Mints, the new Dolce Deleche (caramel milk) aimed at the growing Latin Market and peanut buttery Tagalongs?

I think we also have to ask ourselves is it the Girl Scouts themselves pushing for the war in Iran.

Clearly they want us to donate money to buy more Girl Scout Cookies for the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is entirely plausible that the whole push for Regime Change in Iran is about creating another Girl Scout Cookie market by embedding hundreds of thousand Girl Scout Cookie Eating U.S. Troops there?

I think the more we examine the hidden Girl Scout Cookie angle and how it pertains to Iran that events transpiring in Iran are not simply CIA funded but Girl Scout Funded!

Which begs the question was the CIA so inundated with Girl Scout Cookies that the only way they could stop the onslaught of hot soccer moms and cute little girls and puppies and kitties was to agree to overthrow the Iranian Government and station troops there?

I really believe Girl Scout Cookies are a conspiracy aimed at turning us all into New World Order Couch Potatoes and the only thing that stands in its way are the hapless people of Iran who have no idea what fate actually awaits them.

Jenny Craig help me! I am in love and lust with a Girl Scout’s mom!


[edit on 29/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by SLAYER69
I think the human side of conflict often gets forgotten in the geo-Political maneuverings that are often discussed here. Important as it is to have an understanding of the bigger picture, it is even more important (IMO) to not forget how that big-picture may and often does, affect the people. Stories and threads like this one serve as a reminder that real lives are being lost and that is over-looked when "we" focus on the international scale and forget to look closely at the messages coming from those on the ground. So, emotional or not (and it should be) these threads that reflect real hurt and struggles of the "average person" in the midst of the games of Chess that are being played, are just as important as any other "grander scheme" thread and kudos for bringing it forward.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Wow the Christian Science Monitor looking to exploit the situation in Iran and the BBC claim that the Green Way Movement is real.

Yet sadly its Western Media purporting what is supposedly happening in Iran with no link to actual Iranian Sources.

So what we see here is in fact just more coordinated Pahlavi propaganda through western news sources aimed at emotionally appealing to Regime Change.

You wouldn't actually be able to find an Iranian Source for this Iranian Grass Roots Movement would you?

You know the one supposedly founded by Mousavi the hard line former Iranian President and opposition leader that founded Hezbollah in Lebanon and blew up our U.S. Marine Barracks there that you are so anxious to have the Iranian Nuclear Football in his hands?