Iranian Election Protesters Executed

reply to post by SLAYER69


I have been lurking this thread for awhile.

CAN you answer his questions?

If you are NOT going to answer them, just say so please.

This dance has gotten old.

I have met,and shared in hospitality with a group of Persians.Those were some of the most interesting and entertaining hours i have spent with another culture.

It just tears me up inside sometimes,that the "Great Game" isn't dead and buried like some think.
Good people,that want a fair life and the OPPORTUNITY,to voice concern or opinion with out fear of imprisonment or death,are ironically dieing for just that.

Liberty burns bright,and she burns brighter still when the basket hiding her goes up in flames.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Pretty pictures Slayer, will we be having finger painting classes and cookies and milk later too?

Pictures paint a thousand words but what they don't always do is paint an accurate reflection of just who is in the picture and why.

Your assumption is everyone on the street is protesting against the government and you wish to draw that by inference by using a picture instead of hard cold facts, hoping that those who view the picture will assume that it paints what you are purporting it paints.

Here are the hard cold facts.

Two Movements, Two Moments

A short review of Iran’s 31-year-old revolution is in order. In February 1979, the autocratic monarchy of the Shah collapsed when the country’s economy ground to a halt due to strikes not only by the religiously observant merchants of the bazaar, but also by civil servants, factory employees, and (crucially) leftist oil workers. At the same time, the foundations of the modern state -- the armed forces, special forces, armed police, and intelligence agencies, as well as the state-controlled media -- cracked.

The street demonstrations, launched in October 1977 by Iranian intellectuals and professionals to protest human rights violations by SAVAK, the Shah’s brutal secret police, lacked both focus and an overarching set of coherent demands articulated by a towering personality. That changed when Khomeini, a virulently anti-Shah ayatollah exiled to neighboring Iraq for 14 years, was drawn into the process in January 1978. From then on, the ranks of the protesters swelled exponentially.

Today, the key question is: Have the recent street protests, triggered by the rigged presidential poll of last June, drawn one or more of those segments of society which originally ignored the electoral fraud or dismissed the claims to that effect?

The evidence so far suggests that the protests, while remaining defiant and resilient, have gotten stuck in a groove -- even though on December 27, the day of the Shiite holy ritual of Ashura, they spread to the smaller cities for the first time. What has remained unchanged is the social background of the participants. They are largely young, university educated, and well dressed, equipped with mobile phones, and adept at using the Internet, YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter.

In the capital, they are usually from upscale North Tehran, which contains about a third of the city’s population of nine million. It is home to affluent families, many of whom have relatives in Western Europe or North America. They often spend their vacations in the West; and most are fluent in English and at ease with computers.

Naturally, then, Western reporters and commentators identify with this section of Iranian society, and focus largely on them, inadvertently or otherwise.

In the autumn of 1977, too, such people predominated in the street protests against the Shah. The difference now is one of scale. Since the Islamic Revolution, there has been an explosion in higher education. Between 1979 and 1999, while the population doubled, the number of university graduates grew nine-fold, from a base of 430,000 to nearly four million. The student bodies of universities and colleges have soared to three-quarters of a million young Iranians. That explains the vast size of the protests and their sartorial uniformity.

Now, the foremost question for Iran specialists ought to be: Over the past six months have significant numbers of residents from downscale South Tehran, with its six million people, joined the protest? Going by the images on the Internet and Western TV channels, the answer is “no.” South Tehranis do not wear fashionable jeans, and any protesting women would appear veiled from head to toe and without noticeable make-up.

It is South Tehran that contains the Grand Bazaar, covering five miles of warren-like alleyways and more than a dozen mosques. That bazaar is the commercial backbone of the nation with its intricately woven strands of trade, Islamic culture, and politics. Its lead is followed by all the other bazaars of Iran. Because Prophet Muhammad was a merchant, there has been a symbiotic relationship between the commercial class and the mosque from the early days of Islam. Iran is no exception and the importance of the bazaar’s influence still cannot be overestimated. After all, it was barely a century ago that oil was first found in the country, while industrialization gained a foothold only after World War II.

Leaving aside the shuttering of stores, if some bazaar traders were simply to resort to setting up their own blogs and joining the protests online, that in itself would surely draw the attention of the regime of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamanei and might even lead it to consider a compromise with the reformers.

The Limits of 2010

So far the opposition has been led by the defeated candidates for the presidency -- Mir Hussein Mousavi and Mahdi Karroubi -- neither of whom has anything like the charisma or religious standing of a Khomeini.

Furthermore, the opposition suffers from the lack of a single overarching demand. During the 1978-1979 movement, Khomeini rallied diverse anti-Shah forces -- from Shia clerics to Marxist-Leninist groups -- around a maximum demand: Dethrone the Shah.

Then Khomeini managed to hold together this unwieldy alliance by championing the causes of each of the social classes in the anti-Shah coalition. The traditional middle classes of merchants and artisans saw in him an upholder of private property and a believer in Islamic values. The modern middle classes regarded him as a radical nationalist committed to ending royal dictatorship and foreign influence in Iran. The urban working class backed him because of his repeated commitment to social justice which, it felt, could only be achieved by transferring power and wealth from the affluent to the needy. The rural poor saw him as the one to provide them with arable land, irrigation facilities, roads, schools, and electricity.

Khomeini performed this superhuman task by maintaining a studied silence on such controversial issues as democracy, the status of women, and the role of clerics in the future Islamic republic.

Today, the most popular slogan of the protesters is “Death to the Dictator,” meaning Supreme Leader Khamanei. (In Persian, “Marg bur/ Diktator” rhymes well.) Yet that is certainly not what either Mousavi or Karroubi wants.

Alternet.com

Now I know I didn't put pictures but words and they are well hard for some people to read, pretty pictures are so much easier to look at but it seems to me and many academics clearly agree the pretty pictures don't paint nearly as accurate picture as the real facts and numbers behind them.

Once again you answered all my questions with questions which is simply a control tactic and a junior league one at that.

Want to come on up to the big leagues and start dealing with the facts or do you want to play some more picture Show and Tell since it's Friday?





[edit on 29/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by Ismail

Ok, now I'm confused. In the other thread, you are basically saying the same thing as everyone here debating you. So what on earth is THIS thread about ?

What I'm going on about was how the Iranian Government has executed some of their citizens in the name of God. Many posters have posted replies about how the CIA, FBI, KGB or PTA are responsible for the crises.

Many will leave out that Some in Iran are protesting simply because they view their Government as a tyrannical dictatorial Religious based Nightmare and have chosen to do something about it.

Are there Western Agencies loose in Iran.
Yes.

Are they helping to stir things up?
Yes.

Is that the sole reason why Potentially millions of Iranians wanting their government Gone?
NO!

Those are my opinions.


[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Sean48

CAN you answer his questions?

If you are NOT going to answer them, just say so please.

This dance has gotten old.

I have.

Can he provide some proof to support his claims?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Well said Slayer,you are the big dog now!Hey proto, who let the dogs out?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


When you show your proof,I will bake those cookies.Do you want chocolate chip,peanut butter or oatmeal?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Pretty pictures Slayer, will we be having finger painting classes and cookies and milk later too?
Pictures paint a thousand words but what they don't always do is paint an accurate reflection of just who is in the picture and why.

What happened to the Proto I once knew who could give a mature and respectful answer to a serious discussion?

Your assumption is everyone on the street is protesting against the government and you wish to draw that by inference by using a picture instead of hard cold facts, hoping that those who view the picture will assume that it paints what you are purporting it paints.

I've made no assumptions. There are people who are willing to put their lives on the line in Iran to protest their Governments Actions. It's as simple as that. I understand that many want their Government as is and many do not.

Here are the hard cold facts.

Thanks for the Article. It's an interesting Opinion of the events.

Now I know I didn't put pictures but words and they are well hard for some people to read, pretty pictures are so much easier to look at but it seems to me and many academics clearly agree the pretty pictures don't paint nearly as accurate picture as the real facts and numbers behind them.

True, however those pictures don't show a few dozen people now do they?

Once again you answered all my questions with questions which is simply a control tactic and a junior league one at that.

I'm still waiting for proof.

Want to come on up to the big leagues and start dealing with the facts or do you want to play some more picture Show and Tell since it's Friday?

The only reason I'm home is because I have a bad head and chest cold otherwise I'd be out working.

I appreciate your responses. I've given my answers. You don't like them because they are not what you wanted to hear. You have made some claims but failed to supply evidence then again attempt to belittle my requests for sources with more rhetoric.

reply to post by mamabeth


Sorry the very good looking and wonderfully flirtatious Girl Scout Moms have burdened me with enough cookies to not only fill my house, but keep half the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq stuffed with them too through donations I have made to buy them Girl Scout Cookies too.

I like the Girl Scout Moms a lot! I don't mind helping bring a bit of home to our troops overseas.

I don't though next year want to be paying for Girl Scout Cookies to be sent to our troops in Iran and I sure don't want to see any Americans come home in body bags from Iran either.

I have posted facts in the post above.

Since you haven't asked any questions besides cookies, a question I gave you highly accurate and detailed answers too, and you in fact are posting no facts I am going to assume that you are here for moral support for Slayer.

Bless your heart, he needs it!

reply to post by SLAYER69


Well yes. I've already agreed with you on that. Problem is, millions are not a majority. They did have democratic elections, and the protesters did lose.

The Iranian governement knows that the protest movement is partly instrumentalized to the benefit of western civilisations. So, they kill two guys they suspect are foreign agents or of being financed by foreign nations.

The explanation they give, which appeals to the MAJORITY who elected them, is that they were a threat to god. Because the majority of Iranians are religious nuts, and that explanation satisfies them. They are happy to know that their governement is dealing with the "enemies of god" because that is why they elected them.

We all know that the real reason is that the regime is losing a mediatic war with the west, and that either the mollahs will be overthrown, or the country will be invaded. The ayatollahs know that this will happen, so they need to start appealing to the crazy guys who will defend them in the name of allah, even if it's a long shot.

Um... Was there anything else you wanted to talk about ?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oh so the reason you can't answer specific questions put to you is you are not feeling well?

I see, well maybe you ought to be in bed resting and not on the computer huh?

1. Can you explain why the protestors are only made up of largely one demographic.

2. Can you explain why the West would want to return former President Mousavi to power considering he was the Iranian President who founded Hezbollah and orchestrated the terrorist bombing of the Marine Baracks in Lebanon.

3. Can you actually verify through first hand knowledge that these Mousavi supporters protesting the regime wouldn't actually end up creating an even more isolated and more anti-West, anti-Zionist regime.

Are we really going to pretend that the only reason people protest is because they want to make things better for everyone and not just better for themselves?

As the article points out what is there message? Do you know what their message is that is pro something, or only the fact that they are against something that you don't like is enough for you without knowing what they actually are pro and stand for?

4. Do you actually support Chines Intelligence Agents funding the American Tea Party movement and for the Tea Party Movement to violently destroy State Property in their protests?

Would the fact that they are unhappy with the current government here in America which many are, allow you to condone them destroying State Property and recieving funding from a foreign power?

These are the questions you still aren't answering, only pretending too.

Maybe it's the Nyquil talking and not Slayer?

Originally posted by Ismail
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

The Iranian governement knows that the protest movement is partly instrumentalized to the benefit of western civilisations. So, they kill two guys they suspect are foreign agents or of being financed by foreign nations.

That's a given.
What's not discussed and always pretty much gets side-railed here at ATS when talking about Iran is Their Governments part in the unrest.

The explanation they give, which appeals to the MAJORITY who elected them, is that they were a threat to god. Because the majority of Iranians are religious nuts, and that explanation satisfies them.

And how exactly do we here in this thread know this to be true?

They are happy to know that their governement is dealing with the "enemies of god" because that is why they elected them.

Good point. However all this does in the long run will fuel even more protests and outcry by the opposition.

Um... Was there anything else you wanted to talk about ?

No Brother that was pretty much about it.

See how simple that was?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Ok, cool.

Get better soon !

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Oh so the reason you can't answer specific questions put to you is you are not feeling well?

I see, well maybe you ought to be in bed resting and not on the computer huh?

1. Can you explain why the protestors are only made up of largely one demographic.

I don't know if that's really the case. The only one who keeps pushing that information is you. You provided a source with a defunct link. I'm sorry but simply making that statement over and over again does not make it fact.

Answered yet?

2. Can you explain why the West would want to return former President Mousavi to power considering he was the Iranian President who founded Hezbollah and orchestrated the terrorist bombing of the Marine Baracks in Lebanon.

For the READING impaired. Once again I ask for sources showing that that this is the stance of the West. When you can show me that this is the case then we can discuss this.

In Other words

PROVE IT!

3. Can you actually verify through first hand knowledge that these Mousavi supporters protesting the regime wouldn't actually end up creating an even more isolated and more anti-West, anti-Zionist regime.

No I cannot. Can you prove that they would?
Answered?

Are we really going to pretend that the only reason people protest is because they want to make things better for everyone and not just better for themselves?

Nope not at all.
Can you prove that it is solely the result of foreign agencies interventions? So do you deny that the Iranian Government themselves have a part to play in the unrest? That because of some of their actions that they haven't contributed to their citizens protesting in the streets?

4. Do you actually support Chines Intelligence Agents funding the American Tea Party movement and for the Tea Party Movement to violently destroy State Property in their protests?

Irrelevant and off topic.
I'll answer anyway.

They just passed a bill where in our future we will be seeing a lot more of that kind of BS

Legally by the way. So whats your point?

Would the fact that they are unhappy with the current government here in America which many are, allow you to condone them destroying State Property and recieving funding from a foreign power?

When that happens we will discuss it until then it's a moot point.

These are the questions you still aren't answering, only pretending too.

Maybe it's the Nyquil talking and not Slayer?

Proto you may not like my answers because they disagree with yours. At least in the last one you stopped with you BS assertions of my replies being emotional outbreaks. Again. Can you provide some sources for many of your claims.

I'm been put under the spot light for posting my opinions. Which is fine That's par for the course. Let's see some sources backing up your claims.

Point Blank!

These are some of the questions I liked answered.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


What may be proof to one poster,may not be to another.I have not
conducted myself as a 5 year old,while some have.Remember,that
I am a grandma and you don't want to put me in grandma mode!

Slayer is able to take care of himself and doesn't need support.
My cookies are homemade and with no preservatives.I use real butter,
sugar and flour.

Originally posted by mamabeth

My cookies are homemade and with no preservatives.I use real butter,
sugar and flour.

Chocolate Chip ?

I miss my Gram's cookies .


O ya, she's my Iranian Nanny.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Link to the article I referenced works fine I checked it on the front page where I posted it and this page too but for the link impaired I shall post it again.

Especially for the Link Impaired

Now as far as our friend Mousavi, not a pretty picture.

‘Reformist’ Iranian Candidate Founded Hezbollah
By Kenneth R. Timmerman

The leading contender of the “reformist” camp in Iran ’s presidential elections, former Prime Minister Mir Hossein Mousavi Khameneh, was a founder of Hezbollah and a key architect of the Islamic Republic’s dreaded intelligence services, Iranian political activists and scholars tell Newsmax.

His wife, Zahra Rahnavard, is making campaign appearances with him wearing an Iranian-style Islamic veil. Some in the West are even calling her the “Michelle Obama” of Iran . And yet, a recent photograph from an official Iranian news agency shows her stomping on an American flag.

Is Mousavi really a “reformer” who, if elected on June 12, will change significantly the way the Iran treats its own citizens and deals with the outside world?

Or is he just the latest smiling face being put forward by the regime to raise false hopes among Iranians and beguile the West, just as Mohammad Khatami managed to do in 1997?

Well, he's no reformer, in the eyes of the spokesman for the hard-left People’s Fedai Guerillas of Iran, who uses the nom de guerre “Bahram'.”

“He believes in the most radical ideology of the regime, but he sometimes appears more logical than the other candidates,” Bahram told Newsmax. “No one should expect more freedoms in Iran if he is elected.”

Mousavi was “one of the architects of the Ministry of Intelligence and Information” when it was established in 1984, Bahram said.

That ministry, also referred to as MOIS, was modeled closely after the KGB and was established with the help of Soviet advisers.

Like its predecessor, SAVAK, the MOIS plays a key role in suppressing domestic dissent. It recruits informers, arrests critics of the regime, and tortures them brutally in special political prisons.

MOIS also has been involved in murdering Iranian dissidents overseas and has been cited as a key player in terrorism cases from Germany to Argentina . In 2007, Interpol issued its third arrest warrant for former Intelligence Minister Ali Fallahian on terrorism charges. Fallahian is an adviser to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

A former Iranian intelligence officer, Abdolghassem Mesbahi, tells Newsmax that he used to work for Mousavi when Mousavi headed the regime’s intelligence services as Iran ’s prime minister.

Today’s reformer was yesterday’s terrorist, he says.

“Mir Hossein Mousavi was one of the founders of Hezbollah. Ayatollah Khomeini put him on the Hezollah leadership council when the group was created in 1982-1983. “

In an interview with Payane Enghelab magazine in 1981, Mousavi called for the creation of an Iranian-controlled Lebanese militia to spearhead a military confrontation with Israel .

“We are ready to participate with an armed force to fight Israel ,” he said. “We have repeatedly announced that we are ready to have an actual, real and military presence in Southern Lebanon and on the borders of the occupied Palestinian lands,” a euphemism for Israel .

Once Iran created Hezbollah in 1983, Mousavi coordinated the financing for it as the head of the Bonyad Mostazafan, which he chaired as prime minister.

“For example, working with Mehdi Hashemian, a deputy oil minister, Mousavi set up a scheme so that Hezbollah would get a share of Iranian oil sales,” Mesbahi said.

Hashemian is a cousin of then-parliament speaker Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani. Under the scheme, Hashemian established front companies for the oil transactions in France , Germany , and Cyprus , “and the banks would do the rest, putting commissions into the Hezbollah accounts under fictitious names,” Mesbahi said.

The Bonyad-e Mostazafan, known in the West as the Foundation of the Oppressed, or the Alavi Foundation, was created from the vast real estate and corporate holdings of the former shah of Iran , and is under the direct control of the supreme leader.

The Bonyad-e Mostazafan “makes purchases for several hundred companies in Iran and buys equipment for the Iranian nuclear weapon, chemical/biological weapon and missile programs,” according to the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control.

Western intelligence agencies have cited the foundation, and a sister organization known as the Martyrs Foundation, as a major funding source for Iranian-backed terrorist groups.

For many years the Martyrs Foundation was run by Hojjat-ol-Eslam Mehdi Karoubi, another self-styled “reformist” candidate in the presidential election.

Mir-Hossein Mousavi comes from a large clan, and is said to be a younger half-brother of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.

The Mousavi family originally was Arabic and claims to descend from the seventh of the 12 Shiite imams, Musa al-Kazim ibn Jafar as Sadiq.

The founder of the Islamic Republic, Ayatollah Ruhollah Mousavi Khomeini, was also a member of the extended clan, as was Abbas Mousavi, a Hezbollah secretary general killed in Lebanon in an Israeli missile strike on Feb. 16, 1992.

Mousavi was prime minister at the end of the Iran-Iraq war in 1988 when tens of thousands of political prisoners were murdered in cold blood on the orders of Ayatollah Khomeini.

Students would like to debate Mousavi on the 1988 massacre at an election rally,” said Roozbeh Farahanipour, a leader of the student uprising in Iran in 1999.

Farahanipour sent Newsmax photographs of banners on display during Mousavi’s election rally on May 21 that read, “We Want Revolution Again.”

In a cell phone video recording, the students can be heard interrupting Mousavi with chants, “Death to the Dictator.”

Pro-democracy groups, including Farahanipour’s Marzeporgohar Party, have called on Iranians to boycott the elections, with one saying, “This is a selection, not an election.”

This is from our friends in Lebanon who don't think too highly in how Mousavi founded Hezbollah.

Once again a special link for the link impaired is in order.

Special Link for Link Impaired

As far as your other non-answers no I don't want to take a chance on the motivations of the Iranian protesters and Mousavi.

As far as financing campaigns which is what the new Supreme Court Ruling allows and funding opposition movements that create violent protests I think the Supreme Court would take a dim view on Chinese Intelligence funding the Tea Party here in America.

Now as far as what destruction of State property by the protesters?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e2fdce056bb0.jpg[/atsimg]

You are kidding right?

Have another shot of Nyquil Slayer, and a Snickers Bar as obviously we aren't going anywhere anytime soon!

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

What may be proof to one poster,may not be to another.I have not
conducted myself as a 5 year old,while some have.Remember,that
I am a grandma and you don't want to put me in grandma mode!

Slayer is able to take care of himself and doesn't need support.
My cookies are homemade and with no preservatives.I use real butter,
sugar and flour.

What are you going to drag me along to a Macy's White sale and make me try on clothes to get even?



Not interested in cookies, I am highly interested in some of the Girl Scouts moms though...there is this one cute little redhead...

Slayer obviously can not take care of himself as he has admitted to being home from work with a bad cold, and isn't even sensible enough to crawl into a warm bed with some chicken noodle soup.

How much you want to bet he doesn't even have socks on?

I am willing to wager a box of Girl Scout Lemon Creme Cookies what you got to put up grannie?

Some information on how Auhtoritarian Hard Line Leader Mousavi is the ideal man to run Iran so he can build up Hezbollah more? Or improve the State Security Services he founded?

Or that foreign funded protesters in Iran aren't actually destroying state property?

Or that governments should capitualate immediately when the protesters of a Hard Line Candidate with clear links to terrorist acts against Americans destory state property and cause mayhem against a more moderate candidate that every poll in the West and Iran predicted he would win handily before the election?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Well finally!

A working link. Doesn't matter anymore. We have read the same article. Is that your proof?

Now with regards to the "The destruction of State property by the protesters?"

Let's first discuss the

Destruction of the Iranian PEOPLE by the Iranian Government!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7b09aceb027d.jpg[/atsimg]


Not Nyquil or Snickers.

Soup, salad and a nice hot cup of black tea.
Thanks to my Fiance.



[edit on 29-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

(this applies for all oppressed peoples, regardless of nationality)

What I don't understand is the Iranian citizens are willing to protest and risk life and limb during the protests. But when it come to a revolution and an attempt to free themselves of this regime, they stand down. I realize their govt. has tanks, bombs, etc. as deterrents, but IF they truly want to be free, then sacrifice must be made, no? I guess that the citizens of Iran have just not been pushed to that "boiling-point" yet.