Gays 'will never go to heaven'

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
Just as society has rules against prostitution,

I don't know what society you come from, but prostitution is perfectly legal in Australia. Last time I bothered to keep informed about brothel prices, it was around $50 for 20 minutes, although I suspect it costs a lot more now. It's a simple service transaction where you can even use a credit card.

There's probably even gay, christian prostitututes who know that they're going to heaven. Go and tell those people what they are doing is wrong and see what kind of reaction you would get from them.

reply to post by SorensDespair


When 'yourself' comes into conflict with scripture, then you are wrong. Otherwise everyone can be their own God and make their own rules. Problem is, we didn't create ourselves and can't even stay alive for much more than a hundred years, so what good would that do us?

Ya know, the pervert down the street rapes a child (statutory) and then tells the jury, 'I was resting transparently in Him and being what he created me to be'. I think we all know what the outcome would be. Is 'resting transparently in Him the catch phrase for some new cult I haven't heard of ?

reply to post by tezzajw


I don't care to tell them anything, or you for that matter. I know where you stand and I'm weary of your thread. Have a nice night.

reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar


Aw, shucks. I was having a good time discussing the nature of the individual and the self as compared with God and scripture. Ho, hum. I guess it'll need to wait for another poster.

Again, dealing with courts and God are two separate matters. As are dealing with conceptions of the self and physically harming others. I won't go back into detail about the case of murderers and rapists, but it has everything to do with respecting the other selves that God has created.

The resting transparently part is an aspect of Kierkegaardian philosophy as put forth in Kierkegaard's The Sickness Unto Death. He is commonly known as the grandfather of modern existentialism, and a devout Christian. I'm a fan of his work, hence my UserName and Avatar.

One of his biggest points is the absurdity of any attempt to quantify Christianity in a rational way, since it is inherently irrational for a number of reasons. That's not to say he ignored scripture, but he certainly didn't take it at face value. He, like many other pious philosophers felt that there was an underlying meaning behind the words, and to take the words simply as it is written was an affront to God and the easy way out.

If you feel the desire to come back to the debate, feel free.

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
I don't care to tell them anything, or you for that matter. I know where you stand and I'm weary of your thread. Have a nice night.

Of course you're 'weary' of the thread. I just showed how your claim against prostitution is wrong. Some societies openly embrace it. That's probably enough to make your head spin before you go to bed. Be careful not to sin in your sleep on that good night thought... some christians in here have pointed out how we all sin in our sleep.

I'm going to have a damned fine night tonight sinning in my dreams. Who wants to join me?

(It's not really 'my' thread. I'm not possessive about the news article. I just posted it, I don't own it.)

Completely off topic and so I apologise to those still engaged with, what I am sure is, a very interesting conversation.

I just wanted to point out that you know you've been on ATS too long when you automatically read "Grays 'will never go to heaven'" over and over again while scanning the Breaking Alternative News forum.

Again sorry for getting into the fray of the current tone of the thread.

-Art

reply to post by tezzajw


Having been brought up Catholic and lived most of my life in what is meant to be Britians gay capital.. I find debates like this interesting in how the church and its officials are in conflict with one another. Since not one I know ever mentioned gay is bad while I was growing up.

Take, being caught in the girls playground when I was at school, one ended up having to spend the rest of the day dressed in a girls school uniform from lost property, right down to the panties and a number of boys I know did that for the thrill of flouncing around school in a skirt all day legitimatly.. that's either catholics, or this part of the world for ya.

I mean dressing boys up as girls is going to really help their male identity shine through.. bah humbug

Cardinal Cormac O'Conner came to my school quite frequently (indeed he had a house on the grounds) nice guy, strange ideas like Ahtiests are not fully human.. I mean, you've got to laugh at statements like that.

Personally I'm no longer catholic since I found out what porky fibbers they were, how can you take anyone seriously who changes history to suit what they want to teach.

Edit: to many speeling mistakes..

[edit on 8/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

As long as homosexuals aren't murderers, pedophiles, thief's etc... I really don't care where they go. They don't bother me and I feel you shouldn't judge anyone but yourself. As far as I'm concerned the Catholic church needs to pull some logs out of their eyes before they try pulling splinters out of others. No matter what anyone says or believes, it will not change the fact that nobody will know the truth until their dead. So just do good and try your best to love everyone.

Thanks Priest guy. I was afraid I would end up there by accident! All those murders, pedophiles, and all around hatred had me frightened I would end up there by accident!

Well, of course not. I'm going to the Fourth World. It's sort of like Heaven only better because there won't be any Christians.

Technically, no one can get to heaven, even the Pope. We only get there because Jesus takes our sins upon Himself and takes our punishment.

Hence, he is right. Gays won't go to heaven. Neither will priests. Or Popes.

We all need someone to make us perfect.

It has to be done by someone who is perfect, and can pay the price for everyone.

That, my friend, is God.

Don't expect to lead a life without sin.

Do expect God to make up for your errors.

The catch: You have to ask Him to.

Too hard? Don't believe? Well, not His fault....

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
a) Whether you're a literalist or not, if you follow the basic tenets of a religion, you are accepting someone else's description of the ineffable, which by the internal logic of religion cannot be other than conjecture, for this reason:

You are accepting it on the basis of physical understanding of our time on this earthly realm, not that you understand what the spiritual realm will be like

b) If you accept that you cannot know the spiritual divinity here on earth, ie it is ineffable, then you must accept that you cannot know what instructions about earthly life have come from the divine, what is inspired by mental illness & what is just lies.

This does not seem logical to me- I could understand it if someone following a religion said "I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE SPIRITUAL REALM WILL BE LIKE"- there is no contradiction, however, in believing that God (who passess all physical/spiritual barriers and understanding) can send instructions to those of us in the physical realm in physical terms that we understand them in this physical world, without fully comprehending what the spiritual realm is like

Thus I submit I was right about "crackpot" in the 1st place.

Still no sale

My own faith waxes & wanes. Its based around a hodge-podge of different pagan ideas & bits of philosophy. I made it up to fit my own spiritual experiences, basically, & its constantly being revised in the light of new ones. Trying to practice what I preach, so to speak...

For whatever reason, I seek spiritual comfort in the Christian message, though do not live a "proper" CHristian life according to some-

Originally posted by tezzajw

Gays 'will never go to heaven'

www.heraldsun.com.au

HOMOSEXUALS and transsexuals "will never enter the kingdom of heaven", a leading Roman Catholic cardinal said overnight.

Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan said that while the Church regarded homosexuality as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Explanation: S&F! for the opportunity to show how wrong he is!

As far as I can tell, as a permenant resident of Canberra, there was a place [kingdom?] called Heaven out in Civic that was often frequented by both the Queer and Straight crowds! Its defunct now but I myself attended and you'll just have to take my word for that! [OL is Bi!]

Heaven in Canberra NOTE: Do a word search for "Heaven"

Also I note that just one bit of proof might not sway the naysayers so have a real good look at these links......

www.heaven-london.com...

www.gayxi.com...

Now I would ask that the bishop retract his clearly wrong statement otherwise he will have to prove the existence of his "Heaven" that denies Queers entry!

Personal Disclosure: I don't care what his book says happens! Reality trumps belief! Where is his PROOF?

P.S. I will give him Kudos on the not discriminating comment!

Jesus truly died in vain if heterosexuals will "decide" who goes to heaven and who doesnt simply because of someone's sexual orientation

Being an Ex Christian these things really annoy me.

Bible states: Who are we to say what the ways of god are.

Our job is not to judge but to be a beacon of light.

This is just judgment.

SO CHRISTIANS....READ YOUR BIBLE.... STOP JUDGING AND WORRYING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING. FOCUS ON YOURSELF AND FOCUS ON SPREADING UNCONDITIONAL UNDERSTANDING AND LOVE. THAT IS YOUR PURPOSE. SINCE WHEN DID YOU BECOME THE VOICE OF GOD. ITS GODS DESICION WHO GOES TO HELL AND HEAVEN, IT HAS NEVER BEEN US. AND, YOU CAN't JUDGE , BECAUSE BY DOING SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU ARE A HIGHER AUTHORITY THAN GOD. ALSO, GOD CREATED ALL THINGS....INCLUDING SEX IN WHATEVER FORM IT COMES. SO DON't JUDGE BECAUSE IN DOING SO YOU ARE DIRECTLY CHALLENGING GODS WAYS. SO STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it's a "reversed psychology deal". The Catholics don't really know if Homosexuals are going to hell or not. They're just using this tactic to get a couple of "sinners" to clean up their act...

"What? The Gays are going to hell? Me? Spend all eternity with a bunch of homos. Over my dead body. I'm going to become a Christian and live a better life so I can go to heaven..."



Jesus spent most of His days amongst the sinners, like whores and thieves. I'm sure if Jesus wasn't the Son of God, He would have gone to hell as well, according to some of these guys' teachings and theories...

Originally posted by Gaspode
Jesus spent most of His days amongst the sinners, like whores and thieves. I'm sure if Jesus wasn't the Son of God, He would have gone to hell as well, according to some of these guys' teachings and theories...

That would make sense...............if Jesus went amongst them to whore and thieve............which he didn't....................he went to show how God's love and salvation applies to anyone.....................regardless of their perception and rung in society

reply to post by blueorder


And that's exactly my point. Some of these religious theories make no sense at all. My example - a poor one at that - is in the line of "sinner by association"... but that's beside the point.

According to this old geezer it doesn't matter if a gay person lives a righteous life, go to church every other day, pray on a daily basis, read the Bible twice a day, give to the poor, look after the old, share the Word of God and accept Jesus as his saviour... he is still going to hell...?

Not the Graceful and Forgiving God I'm familiar with.

reply to post by blueorder

This does not seem logical to me-
...
- there is no contradiction, however, in believing that God (who passess all physical/spiritual barriers and understanding) can send instructions to those of us in the physical realm in physical terms that we understand them

Well, logic is the issue here. If we accept the omnipotence of divinity, then certainly instruction from on-high would be possible. However, if we also accept the ineffability of divinity, then we are saying that we cannot know the spiritual being, thus how can we distinguish something we understand as divinely inspired, as opposed to something we understand thats delusional or manipulative? We cannot, since we cannot know divinity. What it comes down to is a human judgement: this idea fits my notion of divine will; that does not. This is an open door for prejudice to rule our own thinking & for crackpottery to influence it.
Thus the only honest spirituality is to accept that we do not know &, as SorensDespair inferred, do the best we can with what we think we do understand. I'll rest on SD's rebuttal that this idea justifies horrendous behaviour, but add that at the core of any beliefs held by people living in a community must be The Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would be done by", unless we are to choose some form of tyranny. For my own part, I dont mind people calling me a crackpot for my beliefs, but what I do mind is having some inherently dishonest interpretation of divine authority invoked against me (I'm bi, promiscuous & reject a great deal of the biblical social injunctions), because a religious premiss often leads to extreme prejudice. Thus you'll never see me post "christians will be denied transition to the next plane of existance" for instance (I dont believe that btw, its just an example), but I will take issue with their beliefs, occasionally lazily, mildly, ad hom.

I find it hilarious that the "Church" thinks it knows anything at all about the "creator of the universe"

First off, let me say that I'm not in any way homophobic and I am quite pleased with my sexuality and do not in any way feel threatened by gays or transies in that regard. as far as I'm concened, a jerk is a jerk, gay or not.
Now, as horrible as it sounds and as bigoted as it's going to make me look I have to say that if you believe the bible and have read and studied it then you will know that his is one of the few things that its very clear about. Homosexuals will not enter into the kingdom of God. Sad but true.
My personal belief is simply that we are not to judge them- in fact, we are to simply leave them alone. On the judgement of others the bible is also very clear (or at least Jesus is). That's why, although having crammed my head with biblical verse from Genesis to Revelation and back through the Apocrypha and various gnostic scripts, I only believe in the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus. That is the only safe way to be a christian without being politically incorrect or branded a hatemonger. The writings of the New testament are largely opinions and the authors even hint at that. Paul cryptically hints that he is spreading a mass lie even. Although that's up to the interpreter and has been the subject of much debate amongst theologians.
No, unfortunately gays don't go to Heaven.
But I don't think any of us will anyway- if you read and meditate on the bible you'll see what I mean.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by R0BCROW75]

[edit on 8-12-2009 by R0BCROW75]