Gays 'will never go to heaven' , page 20

posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 10:05 PM

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reply to post by orangetom1999

Remind me never to date you.
Not that you are not very good and spiritual - I just mean you don't sound like a ball to hang out with....Shallow me. I try to make little joke,
but also I realize you are sincere and believe what you say.
I respect that...a lot.
Thank you for the time you took to explain. We disagree only a little.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by rusethorcain]

rusethorcain

posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 10:20 PM

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reply to post by orangetom1999

By the above I guess you are a clergy of some sort since you know your verses well but I think you as many before you have misunderstood and misinterpreted the message of the Father sent by the Son as well as to many others before Him.
You are here to love your fellow man.
You might achieve a state of spiritual purity, (and it is preferable to the many other states and conditions of being) but even that is selfish, aggrandizing desire. It is good but doesn't win the best favor with your God, who is also mine so I think I know Him well.
You are here to love your fellow man, as difficult and as impossible as that might seem to you. This is the challenge. This is all there is.

orangetom1999

posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 09:14 AM

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reply to post by rusethorcain

You are here to love your fellow man.

Wow!! You are a graduate of public education? By this I mean a television education?? Based on emotions??

There is also no such instruction in the Bible to be an emotional train wreck or to live for ones emotions. We are of the God who lives in us..daily. 24/7.
We are in this world but not of this world.

Love your fellow man?? I am here to love and obey God. How do you get the two mixed up??

I love my brother..in the flesh..but when he lived with me and constantly brought dope home and partook but never helped with the expenses...I finally told him he had to leave.
I still love my brother. But I don't aid and abet his corruption.

I can love someone and still correct and or declare what is declared. I am not here to mix leaven with unleaven ..new wine with olde..corruption with uncorruption. I can love someone by separating from them as well.

I make no claim to perfection. Not in this body of flesh. I just choose not to be around certain things or conducts of others.

Those who would mix new wine with olde..leaven with unleavened..corruption with uncorruption..are not my Bretheren. It is that simple..not complex in love.

Oh...before I forget..I am not clergy. I will never be pure in this body of flesh...cannot be done. Not only that but I don't believe in the doctrine of works per se. By this I mean ..working by degrees in the wisdom of this world to become pure.

You are here to love your fellow man, as difficult and as impossible as that might seem to you. This is the challenge. This is all there is.

No that is not all there is. You and I worship different gods.
This is why in my previous post I asked you to name the spirit by which you are want to commune..here in this quote of yours

No one has a right to squelch, silence, or forbid this. That is a sin against the spirit. The spirit of everyman has been placed here on earth and is free to enjoy life (as long as it harms no one else) and not destroy it.

We are not of the same spirit..you and I. I commune not with the spirit of men...but the spirit of God. To boast of the spirit of men is to boast of the spirit of the god of this world. This is historically demonstrable to those who know the pattern. Give me the name of this spirit ..by name please??
This is the second time I have made this request.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 31-12-2009 by orangetom1999]

Bilw85

posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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My philosophy is that if you're arrogant enough to think you're going to heaven, then you probably aren't. If you believe you are not worthy, then you have a good chance of being saved.

I don't think being gay is any more of an abomination than eating pork and shrimp and lying. Every sin is an abomination, and everyone sins; even people who think they are so much more religious.

The same people who say that we can now eat pork because that covenant, also want to hold others to that covenant for being gay. Jesus accepted the people that the pharisees condemned. Drop the OT # already.

orangetom1999

posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by Bilw85

The same people who say that we can now eat pork because that covenant, also want to hold others to that covenant for being gay. Jesus accepted the people that the pharisees condemned. Drop the OT # already.

Bilw85,

That I know of there are no dietary laws in the New Testament. None.

If you want to eat pork, shrimp et al..have at it. Now prudence is needed in many things..including food and drink. But there are no dietary restrictions of which I know.

Those limites were put in there in the Olde Testament to separate the Hebrews from the nations surrounding them. To show that they were a peculear people..not like the nations surrounding them who did not like them.

The Hebrews were given instructions on what to eat..not eat..how to prepare their food...sow and glean their fields...dress..etc etc. To cover the width and breadth of their lives. All to show that they were not like the people surrounding them...the uncircumcision as they were sometimes called. Gentiles is another name for these outsiders.

Will there be gays in heaven...I think so. But not for reasons of the Gays or anyone else..but for God's reasons..not ours. We have no part is who goes..gay or not.

With the New Testament put in place with the advent of the Cross..a change took place. A change which was foretold in the Olde Testament that this was coming.
But it went into effect with the death of the Testator on the Cross.

That is what a testament is...a Will and Testament. A Will and Testament goes into effect by the act of the death of the Testator. There is now a change in the Testament by the death of the Testator.
For no one died under the Olde Testament.
A Will and Testament can be changed many times..but the one which is in effect is the one at the time of the death of the Testator.
This is very common and a known practice throughout the world. A last Will and Testament.

You might find this interesting about those under Olde Testament law. Those who believe in the Olde Testament as the way to go.
This concerns two sons by one man Abraham. Two women but one man. One woman a bondservent, Hagar,..the other a freewoman..Sarah...
Sarah was wife to Abraham..and Hagar was bond servant to Sarah.
Sarah could not concieve..and decided to send in her bondservant to Abraham to concieve and this son would be of Abraham by law and satisfy the requirements at law. This boy's name was Ishmael.
Later on Sara was to concieve very late in life and her son was named Issac.
These two women..were to go on to dispute the inheritance due because of their sons. Sarah was determined that Ishmael would not inherit but her son Issac would.

This is what is recorded and why in the New Testament concerning this.

Oh..and it is not only the gay community which has a problem with this..the straight community does as well. So do many Believers who are not well versed in the Word.

From The Book of Galatians 4:21.

4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
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This passage from the book of Galatians is very telling to those under good tutorage concerning both the Olde Testament and also the New Testament.

Here we have the Apostle Paul describing the significance and importance of the Olde and New Testament using allegory. In the Olde Testament ..Abraham had two sons by two different women. Hagar and Sarah.These sons are the Two Covenants..the Olde Testament and the New Testaments.
Paul did not say..these sons are kind of like..could be..maybe..perhapsed..but he said they are the Two Covenants.
Agar is Mt Siani..in Arabia, and gendereth to bondage...pertains to bondage. Mt Siani..where the Olde Testament was given to Moses on the Mt. Agar/Hagar is Mt. Siani..in Arabia, is the Olde Testament, and is Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Those under Olde Testament Law are in Bondage and also pertains to Jerusalem which now is. Which is Ishmael..son of Agar/Hagar. Those under Olde Testament Law. Jerusalem which now is is in bondage as well..with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free..not the Jerusalem here now on this earth. Any attempt to substitute the present Jerusalem as holy is a counterfeit..and I know the name of the counterfeiter. Our Jerusalem is not the Jerusalem of this world. The one above is our Jerusalem and the mother of us all...speaking to Believers in His Word.
And Paul goes on to say...For it is written..Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not..speaking of Sarah; Break forth and cry thou that travailest not; here we have the travail of birth lacking in Sarah. For the desolate;speaking of Agar/Hagar here..as desolate;hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
She which hath and Husband here is Sarah. Agar/Hagar hath no husband and yet hath many more children than Sarah.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But we Bretheren, We are not the children of the bondwoman Agar/Hagar but of the freewoman...Sarah. We are of Issac..and not Ishmael. We are of the New Testament and Issac and not the bondage of the Olde Testament and Ishmael.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. This is very true and also telling ..especially to those of us somewhat versed in occult principles and history. This is happenig even today. Nothing changed from those days. Those staunchly under the Olde Testament are persecuting those who are well versed in the New Testament. They are still trying to make Ishmaelites out of us privily ..by occult means. And just like the Pharisees and Hebrew leadership of olde ..they are still secretly trying to overlay occult doctrine and dogma on the New Testament and pass it off to us as holy and Biblical when with just a little thought you can see that it is not. Much of this counterfeit is done in the form of Prophecy.
Clarence Larkin, Ironsides, John Darby, C. I, Schofield are all known for such substitution.
Nevertheless, what sayeth the scrpture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son. For the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.
Abraham did not want to cast out the bondwoman and her son..for he loved Ishmael. But God told him..harken unto your wife. Cast her out. This was a very hard thing for Abraham to do but in faithfullness to God he obeyed.
The son of the bondwoman...Ishmael..the Olde Testament...those under the Olde Testament shall not be heir to the promises of God in the New Testament...to the Jerusalem which is above...the mother of us all ..speaking to Believers.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. We are not under the Olde Testament bondage nor of Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. We are not of Ishmael/Agar/Hagar...but of Issac.
Whenever I get into such debates as this..the sure fire way to know what is happening is to check what someone is saying and determine whether they are trying to make the children of the bondwoman heir with the children of the free woman. Whether they are trying by various means...to make us Ishmaelites. To bring us into bondage with the Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with the children of Agar/Hagar.
This is how I know what todays Jerusalem and also the nation today called Israel actually is. They can have it ..nothing holy about it at all. As far as I am concerned the Muslims can have it..for the same reasons. Nothing holy about it at all.
I have nothing particularly against todays nation called Israel and Jews..I just know there is nothing holy about them, their nation..or Jerusalem. And if the Muslims get it ..the same thing applies. Nothing holy about them either. Nor the nation. I also have nothing in particular or favor of the Muslims as well.
Galatians Chapter 4 is very very telling to those with the capacity to see hear and understand...even in todays social/political events.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Bilw85

posted on Dec, 31 2009 @ 11:41 AM
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Touche'

I always thought that their son Ishmael came to America to look for a job on a whaling boat...

KilluminatisRex

posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by gsuboy

Originally posted by Blender
Say what you will, but homosexually is an unnatural act. Everyone knows this. Its no wonder that the vast majority of homosexuals lead depraved lifestyles, over indulging in sex and drugs. It must be tough being an abomination.

Over indulging in sex? Straight people have and desire just as much sex as gay people do. Have you ever seen "The Hills"? LOL.

And yes of course there is a lot of depression in being gay. I'm sure you would get depressed too if you had people running around telling you that you were an abomination for the way you were born. Duhhhh.

I blame the gay explosion of secret cults and pagan societies dating to the beggining of time. Their secret is subliminal Sentencing, Books, speaches, movies, everything in making it seem too natural to have sex with the same gender. But then we realise that to make a human, another human besides yourself, since you are already here. You are required by the grand architect of the universe/creator to have a male and a female interect with their sexual organs in a certain manner or method, causing a reaction both in the male and female bodies. This reaction may include fluid exchange, which in turn may lead to pregancy in fertile and capable females. YAY ANOTHER BABY.. AKA a MIRACLE! A little you, and noone else! Gay is not for kids so stop brainwashing and feeding our Youth with Spiritual Cyanide! Why should we have to explain what a gay is?

aradventure: a little boy has some questions for his parents with answers unknown to him as of yet.
Little Billy: Hey Mommy... Daddy, where do babies come from? The Parents: Well son, when a man and a woman feel ready to have their own Child, they get together, get naked, do some adult stuff and viola, The Woman may become pregnant and a baby should be scheduled to arrive 9 months after.
Little Billy: But what is Gay, I heard about that in school and on TV. Some kids called me gay and made fun of me.
Parents: Well Son, to be gay means that you prefer to get naked not with the opposite Gender, like a boy and girl. But rather a Boy and a Boy, or a girl with another girl.
Little Billy: Oh wow, that is interesting, I was wondering why I saw two big guys kissing the other day when we drove by in the school bus. So are those 2 guys going to have a baby too?
Parents: No Billy, a child is only possible with 1 male and female.
Little Billy: Then what is the point of being gay if you cant make anything out of it?
Parents: Well Son, many are gay for the pleasure they recieve from this and perhaps the excuse to live with someone they like and care about alot that they would not normally live with. Although some state it is an expression of love, love should be shared with everyone and everything this is this world. Not sexual intercourse.
Little Billy: Thanks Dad, Thanks Dad! Love you! **Hug takes places**

jem78

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999

"This quote above is textbook and predictable of human logic and reasoning."

Isn't that Jesus' logic and reasoning, and what Christianity is supposedly based on?

There's a difference between using thoughtful discernment to dictate the paths you want to take for your own life, or when a friend asks for advice, what you give them... and using judgement to decide who's a "dirty sinner" that can't get into heaven after they die. You'd have to have some godlike omniscience to make a statement like that. Have you ever loitered by the gates of heaven to see who gets in & who doesn't? Who's to say, even if homosexuality in God's eyes isn't healthy for the human race, it won't be forgiven at the gates of heaven, if such a place exists?

orangetom1999

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by jem78
reply to post by orangetom1999

"This quote above is textbook and predictable of human logic and reasoning."

Isn't that Jesus' logic and reasoning, and what Christianity is supposedly based on?

There's a difference between using thoughtful discernment to dictate the paths you want to take for your own life, or when a friend asks for advice, what you give them... and using judgement to decide who's a "dirty sinner" that can't get into heaven after they die. You'd have to have some godlike omniscience to make a statement like that. Have you ever loitered by the gates of heaven to see who gets in & who doesn't? Who's to say, even if homosexuality in God's eyes isn't healthy for the human race, it won't be forgiven at the gates of heaven, if such a place exists?

It took me a bit to find my previous post on which your quote above is based Jem78,

Here I will quote my response to which you quote above so that the whole context can be discerned.

your original quote here....

What happened to "judge not, lest thee be judged thyself?" In Christianity, doesn't Christ alone "Judge the quick and the dead"?

I thought these 2 statements were general understandings in the Christian community; am I wrong? Saying someone won't be retiring to "club heaven" in their post-incarnatory years sounds like a gavel-slamming judgment to me.

To which I responded with the beginning line you quote above in your italics.

This quote above is textbook and predictable of human logic and reasoning."

Christ does indeed judge the quick and the dead. In matters of eternal salvation. But Believers are not to be ignorant and never judge. Believers must judge ..righteous judgement as outlined in the word. If Believers never judge..how would they know to put one disobedient out of the church.

The concept of Believers never judging is textbook of human logic and reason...today's intelligence. It is just not true. Believers are to judge many things. This is how they know not to mix leaven with unleaven...new wine from olde...corruption with uncorruption.

Believers are not to be ignorant of things and never judge...they are indeed to judge such that they know from what corruption from which to separate.

But no ..believers do not determine who goes or does not go to heaven. They do however ...determine by judgement ...which whom and what they will commune.

Hope this helps,
Orangetom

gsuboy

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 09:34 PM
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But then we realise that to make a human, another human besides yourself, since you are already here. You are required by the grand architect of the universe/creator to have a male and a female

What about straight couples that are sterile?

habfan1968

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

These old dinosaurs, when will they ever wake up to the real world and realise how silly they are?

It's too bad that lots of people believe them, follow them, kill for them and worse.

I particularly find it amusing how it's all left up to 'god' to sort everything out. Man can't discriminate, as that's god's job. Yeah, right... That's a great way to avoid responsibility for his idiotic, homophobic comments.

www.heraldsun.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 2-12-2009 by tezzajw]

I can't go into a women's health club. Hmmphf! Why not? Women make the rules at the club and no men allowed is the biggie. The good word is not the be and all end all but if you are homosexual in any way shape or form you are already not Christian based on the facts of their sexual preference in the first place and they are not looking to get into heaven anyway or at least they should not be because they actually do not believe in heaven in the first place, which make this topic a non-starter at he very least. Before someone asks, no you cannot be gay and be christian in the true sense of either.

habfan1968

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by gsuboy

But then we realise that to make a human, another human besides yourself, since you are already here. You are required by the grand architect of the universe/creator to have a male and a female

What about straight couples that are sterile?

Are they sterile because they chose to be that way or is it a condition of their physicality?

habfan1968

posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by mopusvindictus
This might sound like a silly question...

But how exactly is it HEAVEN for a Gay person if they disallow Anal Sex when you get there anyway?

Being silly but it's also a serious question, if your Gay that wouldn't exactly be your idea of "heaven" now would it?

Maybe One Man's Heaven really is another Man's Hell

So by the nature of it... if you wanted to punish a gay person.... you would send them to heaven no?

Good point.

The only thing is hell is to each individual as heaven is to each individual.

From conceptual points of view, my heaven is different than yours as is my hell different than yours.

We do not know with any certainty how either plays out so we can only conceptualize, what each may be.

gsuboy

posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by habfan1968

Originally posted by gsuboy

But then we realise that to make a human, another human besides yourself, since you are already here. You are required by the grand architect of the universe/creator to have a male and a female

What about straight couples that are sterile?

Are they sterile because they chose to be that way or is it a condition of their physicality?

Am I gay because I chose to be that way or is it a condition I can't control?