I beg of you read this. Stop the drama...

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Draves

 

Then you have the majority enforcing it's views on the minority.

Is that any worse or better than what we have now? A majority is supposed to make decisions. Look past the division. A majority rule does not have to be sexual or ethnic. Just because a majority wishes for something does not mean anything more than the country, in general, wants something to happen. It does not mean it cannot change later. You are to short sighted in this.

Division has really gotten to us. We are to scarred to offend. Well gues what? If we can work together than a popular vote would work. If we can overcome dualities and culture we can stop tip-toeing. Yeah for damn sure the majority will make changes. That does not mean the majority will enslave people.

If we grow up enough to see past the duality this argument is pointless. If we can seee past duality and see everyone as other people than there is no need to worry. The "majority" will be a mix of everyone. You know tlaking is an opting eh? It does not have to be the way you see it.

I understand the flaw in this system. The flaw really comes down to all of us however. Look past all that. If we could vote on what we believe in a majority vote then things could work great. We need to see past division.

reply to post by Draves


Considering the fact that most Americans care more about "American Idol" than they do about the news? I am sorry but you are sounding more like a idealist than a realist.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Brilliant thread and points made! A close friend of mine has also said he believes the worlds populace have been dumbed down to such an extent that they are exactly as you the OP stated- perpetual children..they give the people football (soccer) to watch and lager to drink, thats all most sheep can hope for.. I agree also with what you said about violent methods being our base mentality, which is true.. but I also believe that like it or not, volence and anger is needed, but in a self controlled manner.. it can fuel a great passion that just might be earth changing..who knows..
Until mass majorities of the worlds people begin to grow up and act responsibly, we cant really expect much to change for the better.. with their child mindset everything is everyone elses fault when things in life go wrong, taking responsibility of ones self and being is of great importance. Many sincere thanks for sharing this thread.. S&F here

[edit on 9-11-2009 by killyou]

violence is okay as long as you can cover up the evidence or create fake evidence.

don't you remember how Mahatma Gandhi got killed? And there were others before him. So...



You know, if I were in the same position as the OP, I'd rather enjoy getting even with society & letting everyone just have their wishes.



[edit on 9-11-2009 by killyou]

reply to post by badgerprints

Once again, one sided idealism strikes a blow for ........ one sided idealism.

Simple pacifism is not a solution. It is just as mindless as the hate and violence you speak out against.

Without balance we cannot succeed.

NEWS FLASH: FORGET the pacifism the bill to implement instant Martial law for any area at any time
just passed the house!!! read on.


Did it ever strike you that pacifism is what TPTB WANT??? We have seen the reports here on ATS about the peaceful protests at the political conventions, G-20, Town hall meetings and Tea-parties. The bought and paid for media does not even bother to cover the protests or puts a different spin on the protests.

I do not bother with useless protests instead I go to farmers markets, flea markets and what ever talk to people about the Federal Reserve and how BOTH parties are bought and paid for. (so support and vote third party) I give them a hand written index card with

Google
Creature from Jekll Island
Secrefts of the Federal Reserve
Confessions of an economic Hitman
whirledbank SAP
History, HACCP and tfood safety Con job

This week my hubby talked to a recent Economic graduate from a well known school and he knew NOTHING about the Fed!


Pacifism/protests are useless when the government is deaf to our protests. Here is a recent example.

The International Corporations want farmer regulation not the US farmer or informed consumer. It started with Animal ID. There was a blackout in the media so farmers used the internet and I trudged down to the livestock sales and farmers markets and handed out cards. In 2008 the USDA held Listening sessions HA HA ha. 90% to 97% of the crowded conference rooms were against NAIS.

Only one person from the group of around 300 made positive comments about NAIS and he left before finishing his remarks. Later on, one lady stood up and apologized for heckling him, but not for her viewpoint.

Approximately 50 others testified against it during the three-hour session. Speakers were chosen by drawing numbered tickets. Statements were limited to three minutes.

Still, USDA representatives said that they wanted those present to help implement a system that works well. There was no "if" -- it was a "when" NAIS is implemented.



Below are some of the comments offered by those who took the microphone:

From USDA: "NAIS will be implemented in three phases. First is premise ID, second will be animal ID, and third will be traceability. We need a good system in place to keep our livestock healthy. Registry has no effect on ownership. USDA will not require registration of non-commercial animal production (pets). USDA will not require anyone to violate their religious beliefs; you can have someone tag your animals for you if animal ID violates those beliefs. We want to hear what you tell us."

Did you get that?? We want to hear what you tell us. Yet the, USDA representatives said that they wanted those present to help implement a system that works well. There was no "if" -- it was a "when" NAIS is implemented AND I absolutely LOVE the respect for the Constituion and religious beliefs USDA will not require anyone to violate their religious beliefs; you can have someone tag your animals for you if animal ID violates those beliefs. THAT is NOT violating their religious beliefs about "the mark of the beast"?????

So NAIS has been protested, farmers have marched on their state capitals and gotten state anti-NAIS laws passed. Anti-NAIS was one of the top topics sent to the Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team



So where did this resounding NO from US citizens get us when compared to the big bucks of international corporations?

It is now 2009 so what happened? As soon as Obama was in office On Tuesday, January 13, 2009, the USDA published in the Federal Register a proposed rule that would make two elements of NAIS — NAIS Premises ID and NAIS individual animal ID — effectively mandatory AGAIN farmers attacked in mass. The last time I had checked there were over 5000 comments and I did not read one positive comment in the bunch.

This did not deter big Ag instead of NAIS for livestock we got the Waxman's bill HR 2749: Food Safety’s Scorched Earth Policy that makes tagging and tracking livestock look like a walk in the park. (NAIS of course is part of the bill)

this threat to our food supply has to be read to be believed and OBAMA wants it FAST TRACKED!!

FARM WARS
HR 2749 is being rushed through Congress, and the house may look to suspend the rules and fast track the bill at Obama’s request. Just what can we expect from this legislation? A lot more of the following:

Invisible to a public that sees only the headlines of the latest food-safety scare – spinach, peppers and now cookie dough – ponds are being poisoned and bulldozed. Vegetation harboring pollinators and filtering storm runoff is being cleared. Fences and poison baits line wildlife corridors. Birds, frogs, mice and deer – and anything that shelters them – are caught in a raging battle ...

Farmers are told that ponds used to recycle irrigation water are unsafe. So they bulldoze the ponds and pump more groundwater, opening more of the aquifer to saltwater intrusion, said Jill Wilson, an environmental scientist at the Central Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board in San Luis Obispo.

Wilson said demands for 450-foot dirt buffers remove the agency’s chief means of preventing pollution from entering streams and rivers.... removal of vegetative buffers threatens Arroyo Seco, one of the last remaining stretches of habitat for steelhead trout.

Dick Peixoto planted hedges of fennel and flowering cilantro around his organic vegetable fields in the Pajaro Valley near Watsonville to harbor beneficial insects, an alternative to pesticides.

He has since ripped out such plants in the name of food safety, because his big customers demand sterile buffers around his crops. No vegetation. No water. No wildlife of any kind.

“I was driving by a field where a squirrel fed off the end of the field, and so 30 feet in we had to destroy the crop,” he said. “On one field where a deer walked through, didn’t eat anything, just walked through and you could see the tracks, we had to take out 30 feet on each side of the tracks and annihilate the crop.”

In the verdant farmland surrounding Monterey Bay, a national marine sanctuary and one of the world’s biological jewels, scorched-earth strategies are being imposed on hundreds of thousands of acres in the quest for an antiseptic field of greens. And the scheme is about to go national. (Lochhea

So tell me how pacifism is going to save our farmland and YOUR home garden from confiscation by the Ag Corporations???

I strongly recommend you read about HR 2749 because it just passed the house.

HR 2749 would give FDA the power to order a quarantine of a geographic area, including “prohibiting or restricting the movement of food or of any vehicle being used or that has been used to transport or hold such food within the geographic area.”

[This - "that has been used to transport or hold such food" - would mean all cars that have ever brought groceries home or any pickup someone has eaten take-out in, so this means ALL TRANSPORTATION can be shut down under this. This is using food as a cover for martial law.]

Under this provision, farmers markets and local food sources could be shut down, even if they are not the source of the contamination. The agency can halt all movement of all food in a geographic area.

[This is also a means of total control over the population under the cover of food, and at any time. Daily Kos

Yeah you just read that correctly instant Martial law for any area any time they want to put it in place and it is a INTERNATIONAL Agri-corporation bureaucrat who will have that control.

Originally posted by killyou
violence is okay as long as you can cover up the evidence or create fake evidence.

don't you remember how Mahatma Gandhi got killed? And there were others before him. So...

[edit on 9-11-2009 by killyou]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by killyou]

LOL a very good point on that..
I agree that not everyone acts in the ways spoken of above, but damn it, far far too many people do act and think in these ways.. personally it would be great to watch the truly stupid and ignorant children like 'grown ups' crumble into nothingness.. absolutely.. if they cant pull their head out of a certain orifice they are no good to the world or those in it trying to get things together.. if that makes sense.. i know people will say thats harsh, but its true.. i am not saying all the people whom dont apply to this group and who have grown up beyond the years of these child-like ones are of super intelligence brainy master minds, but at least the effort to not remain stupid little people have begun with the aware ones..
natural selection, hopefully these pointless beings will simply die out and become extinct eventually..for many there truly is no hope no matter how optimistic one may be!

The world is on the verge of a major revolution, long in the making, and meticuoulously planned out by the intelligentsia. It is a freight train headed for its destination with great momentum, and at this point there is not much that can be done to stop it. You can throw yourself on the tracks, in hopes that it will slow down or stop, but you will just be crushed beneath its wheels.

Just prior to the Russian Revolution, the people of Russia knew that something bad was coming. They felt it in their hearts, but were powerless to stop it. Here is a quote from a poet of that time:

"...whether we remember or forget, in all of us sit sensations of malaise, fear, catastrophy, explosion....We do not know yet precisely what events await us, but in our hearts the needle of the sesmograph has already stirred...."

Just a few short years later, the whole society imploded, and the history, social structure, and way of life of the Russian people changed forever. I am afraid we now sit at a similar juncture for the entire world. We may not know exactly what events await us---but "in our hearts the needle of the sesmograph has already stirred."

reply to post by crimvelvet


Wisconsoner here, if you posted something on that the idiots here would maybe take a look. No, much better to look into the threads on pacifistic ways to stop the government. My neighbors and my state are very close to making a stand. Any # # try this crap in the surrounding three counties where I live, better have 20,000 troops. Ever hear of the deer hunting season in Wisconsin. 1.5 million hunters. Half of them probably, rated at least expert with a rifle.

The food is the final piece. And the sheeple speak of pacifistic ways to bring change

How is that hope and changer working for ya?

Pretty much the same as the last guy huh?

reply to post by Draves


I agree, but i don't see it happening, they wont give up without a fight.
They are prepared to wipe out 2/3 of mankind BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE and i can't see that being stopped by peaceful means.
Sure we are all talking now, putting beliefs to one side, respecting another's viewpoint,that's good, but i don't think it's enough.
If you start a peaceful protest, you will get run over, or the protest will turn violent because some elements in the crowd (intentionally or otherwise) will get violent. It's human nature, and it's something they are very aware of, they will use it against us.
The sad fact is that most people are gullible & accept what they are told. The flag-waving rhetoric post 9/11 being a good example, people were angry, wanted to go Taliban-bashing. New laws were passed, that would never go through unless there was an 'emergency'. It worked, too......

Excellent, excellent post Draves my friend. You've hit the nail on the head far as i'm concerned. Drama - folks cannot get enough of it theses days it seems. I'm at the other end of the scale in that I cannot stand to be around people so inclined. Whether it's creating a drama at home, work, here on the net or in their relationships I find it all so tedious & boring when we should all be on the same team, pulling in the same direction. Over here in England we have programmes like the x factor, britains got talent & many more besides which people watch almost religiously. I've been to two family gatherings in the past few weeks where everyone bar me has been sat watched transfixed by the screen, ready to give their opinion on the latest effort from a contestant. I look around in frustration & disbelief. Can't they see what these programmes promote? Cant they see it changes their perception of themselves? It's all me, me, me & a bloated sense of self-importance. I see it everyday from the group of young girls talkin' about what they got up to last night loud enough for anyone within 20 feet to hear, to the dude at the bar boasting about how much money he made last month. Like you yourself said, I dont feel like I belong here either. I don't wanna be famous, I don't wanna be talked about, I don't need to update my facebook status every 10 minutes, ever actually so I don't because I KNOW whats going on, people need to feel important. Me, I know i'm important because i'm here & that'll do me just fine.
This may upset some people but sorry females are the worst culprits. How many mini-dramas some of you ladies go through in a day I don't even wanna contemplate. I tell them straight. Do not bring your drama round here. I don't care how hot you think you are, how many dudes want you, that no-ones ever spoken to you like that before. After all, who are you exactly, same as me & everybody else right? You're not the queen & even if you were i'd tell you the same thing believe me. The PTB know exactly the world that is being created as they're the ones pushing it. I just find that people are being sucked in so, so very sad.
So thanks for bringin' the subject up. I've been an ATS member for awhile now & get on the site most days but don't post replies but had to to this one just so you know you are not alone in your thinking.

Originally posted by Draves
I need a break. so everyone knows, I am in a fight with the mods right now... I may end up getting banned. I will be back. I don't care what safe guards this sight has to prevent banned users. I WILL bypass it and be back.

What "safe guards"?

There isn't really any way to prevent someone from using a site.

Oh, except maybe for finding out who someone is in real life and having them gangstalked until they give up........ doesn't always work though.

Does anyone here recall what the war of 1812 was about ?

Well, thats the war soon after our so called victory over the British....the "Revolutionary War" which we so proudly celebrate on July 4th, Independence Day.

The war of 1812 was fought over the non renewal of the Rothschild owned and controlled Bank of the United States, predecessor to the FED, in which the British showed us how independent we REALLY were.

Remember this quote:

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.

Mayer Amschel Rothschild

Well, after congress voted to not renew the charter in 1811, Mayer's son Nathan Mayer Rothschild said this :

"Either the application for renewal of the charter is granted, or the United States will find itself involved in a most disastrous war." However the United States stands firm and the Charter is not renewed, which causes Nathan Mayer Rothschild to issue another threat, "Teach those impudent Americans a lesson. Bring them back to colonial status."

Picking up arms is not the solution.

That might have worked on the TV with Rambo or against the Indians but Your weapons are useless against armor and other weapons that the Government/PTB have.

The only way to fight back is to use their own weapons of finance against them. Stop using their debt based instruments the US Dollar as well as the banks who print them for nothing and who are making Billions on late fees and other surcharges.


If more Americans would incorporate themselves, they'd have the same protections that the US Govt and their Maritime Law based legal system has used to usurp the US Constitution from the US citizens.

For example:

The IRS went after the Brazilian race car driver Helio Castroneves.
They like to go after a well paid celebrity who has millions in the bank and would also make good media material promoting the IRS's fear based agenda.

Long story short, Castroneves came out victorious because he had all of his income going into his corporation and not his person.
He was paid by his corporation and the IRS couldn't touch him.

This of course you won't read in the Rothschild controlled MSM....simply due to the fact that they, the IRS, were beaten at their own game.

sports.espn.go.com...

Originally posted by nh_ee

Picking up arms is not the solution.

That might have worked on the TV with Rambo or against the Indians but Your weapons are useless against armor and other weapons that the Government/PTB have.

I'm not convinced of that.

There are a very very small number of people at the very top controlling all this stuff - around 300 or so - and I'm pretty sure they still die from gunshot wounds.

(Unless it turns out that they're actually demons or reptilians or vampires or some such thing LOL)

Now if it turns out that certain Jesuit orders and secret cults operating out of Vatican City - Opus Dei and Knights of Malta etc etc - have been practising Black Magick and summoning demons, or what some in UFO circles might call "Bad ETs", for hundreds or even thousands of years, and the world is actually controlled by demons - well, then we'd REALLY be in trouble!!

Corporations are undeniably subject to the so called "Personal Income Tax" and if a person incorporates themselves what they in effect do is become a fictitious person granted status by statute. That means that person is statutorily granted permission to exist. People don't need governments to grant them permission to exist. If a person wants to avoid paying income taxes perhaps that person would be wise to actually read the Internal Revenue Code and find in there where they specifically have been made liable for and therefore subject to a tax.

Title 26 of the IRC is usually what is used by tax collectors, tax lawyers and many other people to show people how they have been made liable for a tax however a careful reading of that Code shows that a tax has been laid upon the "taxable income" of...

What is "taxable income" and why does the Code then go on to describe behavior and people who have clearly all ready been made liable? What that section does is say that spouse filing this and those people filing that, but if people are filing aren't they all ready liable for the tax? If one wasn't liable for the tax why would they be filing a "valid tax return" There is ingenuous circumlocution of definitions in that code that play like a "Who's on First?" routine but no where in that code does it make clear how the vast majority of people living in the U.S. have been made liable for and therefore subject to this so called "Personal Income Tax".

If one is manufacturing or importing tobacco it is clear that that person has been made liable for a tax within the IRC just as it is very clear that those who distill or import alcohol have been made liable for a tax and those people are undeniably subject to the laws of the IRC. Corporations and corporate officers are also clearly defined as being made liable for a tax by the IRC, however a waiter or waitress, a plumber, doctor, janitor, engineer, pilot, chef, street cleaner and the multitude of other occupations by which most Americans rely upon to earn income have not been made liable for a tax.

The fallacy of the so called "Personal Income Tax" is that people have been led to believe that a direct tax upon the income earned has been levied by Congress. However, the current Personal Income Tax does not function as a direct tax as it is not apportioned among the states. It will be argued that the 16th Amendment "authorized" a direct tax with out apportionment but this is yet another fallacy. Congress has no authority to abolish one portion of the Constitution by Amendment in order to pass such a tax and a careful reading of both Brushaber v. Union Pacific Railroad 240 U.S. 1 (1916) and Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co. 240 U.S. 103 (1916) one will come to understand that The Supreme Court has made clear and consistently held that the 16th Amendment did no such thing. The 16th Amendment was passed in direct response to an earlier SCOTUS ruling Pollack v. Farmers Loan and Trust Co. that had struck down an earlier Revenue Law as unconstitutional because SCOTUS has viewed that particular income tax as a direct tax on income without any apportionment. What Brushaber and Stanton made clear is that the 16th Amendment was written to prevent future courts and indeed to make clear to the American People that any tax laid upon income without apportionment can not be viewed as a direct tax but rather an indirect tax and as such the tax levied is not on income directly but rather income is used as a form of measurement to gauge how much tax is owed for the particular activity one is engaged in. Activities like manufacturing and or importing tobacco or distilling and or importing alcohol for example.

Corporations are absolutely liable to this tax and it is unclear how the person mentioned in the above post defeated any "income tax" but the suggestion that people incorporate themselves in order to beat a government system is a recipe for disaster. People exist by right!

It is not just the drama. WE, as the human race, are suffering psychosis. We ALL are psychotic.

psychosis

When I first heard someone say that I didn't get it. I had to look it up. Everyday it makes more and more sense to me now. That is why I pretty much don't comment on any forums anymore. It isn't worth the "drama".

Our psychosis runs deep. Our human thinking (limited by us) has conditioned us for many, many centuries. Before any type of revolution, be it violent or peaceful, can work and truly make a long term change we need to fix our psychosis, change our way of thinking...........

It took me a half life to even realize this.....How long will it take for the rest of my human family???

Off my soap box. Have fun.......

If you mean stop the drama, then STOP IT.. Don't make 500 word epilogues about it.

Otherwise I agree... BUt Im not sure I do...

Cliffs notes ta.

(Oh why? it's just not worth 5 hours to find out I disagree... )

I've read through this whole thread and definitely agree that something needs to change, but I'm not sure there is a correct solution to our current problem.

The average person doesn't understand and it isn't completely their fault. They know that something is wrong. Everyone knows something is wrong and it isn't just with our country; something is wrong with the world we are living in. However, many of them don't look beyond this and it isn't because they aren't as smart. People have lives, family, friends, jobs, obligations that need to be tended to. They aren't aware of forums like this (and maybe that is ignorance, but isn't it our fault for not making more people aware?) Talking is the first step. Of course they don't understand because your ideas haven't been conveyed to them (the masses). Have you given them a chance though? Something is coming...

As for using the internet and the popular vote; they are great ideas. I'm assuming most of us on here are from some sort of middle class background, but there are still a huge amount of people out there that don't have access to internet or even a computer. I'm in graduate school and I know people that still go to campus to use a computer. It seems so commonplace to us, but it isn't as widespead as it seems. What about all those people? Do they not get a say? I understand the argument that the popular vote would be bad because the majority would get what they want, but if what the majority wants is good for all, then that's great, but we can't always count on that. That's the problem. It's a great system if everyone is working together, but when does everyone ever work together? I want to believe that people out there do want peace and good for all, but in all honesty... looking around me, I see so many people that only care about themselves. They don't care what happens to me or you, or our children... How do we make these people care, look beyond themselves? How do you get people to grow up?

What are you doing to make a change?

How about reclaiming your "STRAWMAN" and filing a "Common Law Lien", this removes all debt and taxes. Now for the MODS here, I am NOT suggesting TAX EVASION, simply stating that we can exercise our rights under LAW, if YOU research it you will see.

Links here;

www.moorishrepublic.com...

And

freedomradio.us...

and

www.scribd.com...

Once you file your UCC-1 Financial Statement, you take control of your strawman as the "agent", all debt may be then discharged. I suggest that everyone research this themselves and understand it before you go any further, do you want a peaceful resolution or a peaceful revolution, either way this is the only way I see to take our sovereignty back.

Allegedly 25 million people have done this, who do you think they are? Politicians, police, judges and so on, you'd probably be right, they know but we have been kept in the dark, TURN THE LIGHT ON!!!!