Scores killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza

reply to post by jam321

Thank you for the information. It is true what you say, but that doesn't stop Hamas from going to the border and confronting Israel face to face. I get tired of people like Hamas, OBL, Hezbullah telling their people to attack Israel or America while their busy hiding where they won't be killed. Why should the people believe in dying for the cause while they hide for the cause?

Some would say discretion is the better part of valor. Once upon a time men like Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Avaraham Stern, all participants in terrorist organizations known as the NMO and Lehi also known as the Stern Gang saw their own small numbers in a protracted guerilla struggle against lawful British Government in the British Mandate of Palestine as being decidedly to their own disadvantage which is why Israel itself was birthed through these gangs terrorism. It is true that the Haganah underground army at first denounced these Zionist Terrorist groups who targeted not just British Authorities and Palestinians and Arabs but dovish Zionists at times as well, once these organizations accepted the mantle of Haganah discipline all were merged in coordinated terrorist attacks against all other parties to the struggle.

It is true that the Palestinians were alarmed and reluctant about the Balfour Declaration but not out of a widely misreported religious context as is widely believed but out of a deep seeded fear that Palestinians themselves would eventually be completely disenfranchised from any say in government as a result of Zionists abusing and manipulating the terms of the British Mandate in Palestine that the Balfour Declaration eventually led too.

A small community of Jews never went into Diaspora and had lived amicably alongside the Arabs and Palestinians for centuries with hardly any discord between them.

The real issue was for the Palestinians that they were free rangers, who followed their herds where their herds led them to graze for forage and water. Existing property ownership laws at the time allowed for egress and to traverse all lands public and private while free ranging.

One of the first pushes in the British Mandate was on behalf of Zionists who successfully changed the existing law to allow absolute ownership of land.

It really became a situation much like free rangers versus ranchers in the Midwestern United States a few decades before that led to similar violence on the part of free rangers who had their traditional grazing routes blocked by fences and ranchers unwilling to let them pass.

While Stern and Begin were leading terrorist actions against primarily the British and to a lesser extent the Arabs, the Arabs led few of their own, all the while Zionists were strategically buying up large swaths of land, not only blocking the herding routes in the process but making it impossible to award the Palestinians a contiguous land mass of half the territories promised to the Palestinians in the British Mandate of Palestine that set up the lawful mechanism for Jewish immigration to Palestine.

The Palestinians fears had in fact been realized as through terrorism, coercion, and out and out bribery and theft, it became impossible for the British to see to a fair and equitable dispersal of the territories to the promised recipients.

Many people labor under inaccurate and incomplete glimpses of history, I am not one of them, and please take no offense that history does not support your conclusions or beliefs.

Neither does Biblical Scripture as I believe there is something written about ye reap what you sew.

Simply put a nation founded on terrorism, would be foolish to expect to have no problem with terrorism.

Originally posted by bodrul

so my question how can anyone speak of peace when the second party doesnt want to listen but would rather isolate and make things worse?

Precisely, Hamas has never recognized Israel's right to exist, or honor any prior peace agreements. Their charter pretty much spells out their view of what should happen and it doesn't include the Jewish State of Israel residing where it currently does. Even going back to 242 and 1967 borders isn't good enough. The best they can offer is a multi-year ceasefire, which begs the question: What happens after the ceasefire expires? Not that they seem capable of holding a ceasefire for that long anyway.

If Hamas were to do those things, it would have a chance at being a player in the peace process. As it stands, it's like asking a known thief to watch over your house while you are on vacation. Doomed from the start.

reply to post by bodrul

Abbas Has full support from Israel
they have split Hamas and Fatah

Don't know why it was removed either. I didn't take no offense to it.


Israel didn't split hamas and Fatah. Hamas did that by themselves because of a power struggle.

Hamas seizes Fatah base as bloody battles push Gaza towards civil war

www.independent.co.uk...

reply to post by jam321


what caused the power struggle?
days before, funds being frozen, and other aspects

A chain of events lead to a reaction

they just dont happen

[edit on 27-12-2008 by bodrul]

Disinformation, secrecy, deception: How the Gaza offensive came about

Long-term preparation, careful gathering of information, secret discussions, operational deception and the misleading of the public - all these stood behind the Israel Defense Forces "Cast Lead" operation against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, which began Saturday morning.

haaretz.com...

- That misleading have taken huge place also in ATS... Sad but true.

I Live in Israel.
Funny to mention that I'm just a teenager.
You people don't understand at all "both sides are wrong", "what israel did to spot their attacks".
We've been terrosided for years, even from inside of the countires. ARABS are just cruel, not once I just walked down the street and had a stone throwed at me.
Israel did alot to prevent attacks, we tried peace.
We even deliver food and basic needs to GAZA Sector, for the fact that we're human. However, Hamas are basicly who lives there. Those "innocent" people you see killed, How innocent? So innocent that they have an AK in they bedroom. Kids have AK's as toys. Come on people, they deserve it, we suffered far too long, THEY SPILL OURS, THEIRS WILL BE SPILT EVEN MORE.

Best regards from israel.
Den.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by t0ken

 

Seems to me that the Hamas, after over a week of attacks and warning's, was the ones pounded, and they deserve it and much more.

Does it matter if hamas got pounded?

They probably have 500 young recruits signing up at this minute who want to join them.

reply to post by t0ken


And here we have the real crux of the problem.

Palistinian terrorists will continue to attack and will continue to be killed in responces to their attacks.

Perhaps if the Hamas tried waging peace, not war, something might be different.

How can anyone realisticly expect Israel to not respond to attacks from Hamas, seriously now folks.

Now if Hamas declared peace ( and don't break it) and Israel broke it, they would have the moral ground they falsely claim, but not until.

reply to post by t0ken

And that's why a ground offensive to push Hamas into the sea is imperitive. No more Hamas = no more terror. Ok there will be considerable casualties, but it's the long term we look at. No more Hamas = no more missiles on Israel territory, no more Iranian influence. That's a good thing.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by t0ken

 

And that's why a ground offensive to push Hamas into the sea is imperitive. No more Hamas = no more terror. Ok there will be considerable casualties, but it's the long term we look at. No more Hamas = no more missiles on Israel territory, no more Iranian influence. That's a good thing.

You must be dreaming if you think hamas is gona go away soon.

And even if hamas does go away, there are plenty of other millitant groups that will pound israel.

You see theres no winning for israel,israeli's will eventually realise that it's better moving outa israel than living under constant fear and bombardment,wars etc.The palestinians are gona win this battle in long term.

reply to post by masonwatcher



Isreal has the right to defend themselves. It is no secret that Humas and Iran want her destoyed.
The middle east conflict sickens me. Read both sides. They want the same thing. However peace is not it.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
reply to post by Mdv2

 

It is interesting how they can afford guns/bombs/rocket's/ammo.............

but they can't afford food, hmmmmmmmm.

They can manage to sneak in guns/ammo/bombs but not food........hmmmmmm

Isn't it interesting that Egypt has a border with them and keeps it closed!!

Isn't it interesting that Egypt has NO plans to open it's border to the Hamas terrorists.

In fact, they have sent more men to beef-up the border Egypt has with Hamas.

[edit on 12/27/2008 by mrmonsoon]

Mr smart how do you armchair warrior distinguish whether its Palestinian families or Hamas supporters buying weapons?

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by t0ken

 

And that's why a ground offensive to push Hamas into the sea is imperitive. No more Hamas = no more terror. Ok there will be considerable casualties, but it's the long term we look at.

I think it will become a bloodbath in that case, close range fighting in a city, no matter the size of the armies involved, is always very destructive. It's lengthy and there are many spots to ambush tanks and infantry. Door to door fighting and so on.

Naturally, Hamas is waiting for the IDF to come inside.

Read this article and make the conclusions yourself.

In Gaza, if the IDF embarked on a ground operation it would face an army of close to 20,000 armed men, among them at least 15,000 Hamas operatives. The rest are from Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Popular Resistance Committees.

Source

All this exluding other outside forces like Hezbollah or other militant factions out there. If it's the intention of Hamas to fight to the last man or whatever, it would indeed take weeks.


[edit on 27-12-2008 by Mammoth]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by jam321

 

Thank you for the information. It is true what you say, but that doesn't stop Hamas from going to the border and confronting Israel face to face. I get tired of people like Hamas, OBL, Hezbullah telling their people to attack Israel or America while their busy hiding where they won't be killed. Why should the people believe in dying for the cause while they hide for the cause?

Some would say discretion is the better part of valor. Once upon a time men like Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Avaraham Stern, all participants in terrorist organizations known as the NMO and Lehi also known as the Stern Gang saw their own small numbers in a protracted guerilla struggle against lawful British Government in the British Mandate of Palestine as being decidedly to their own disadvantage which is why Israel itself was birthed through these gangs terrorism. It is true that the Haganah underground army at first denounced these Zionist Terrorist groups who targeted not just British Authorities and Palestinians and Arabs but dovish Zionists at times as well, once these organizations accepted the mantle of Haganah discipline all were merged in coordinated terrorist attacks against all other parties to the struggle.

It is true that the Palestinians were alarmed and reluctant about the Balfour Declaration but not out of a widely misreported religious context as is widely believed but out of a deep seeded fear that Palestinians themselves would eventually be completely disenfranchised from any say in government as a result of Zionists abusing and manipulating the terms of the British Mandate in Palestine that the Balfour Declaration eventually led too.

A small community of Jews never went into Diaspora and had lived amicably alongside the Arabs and Palestinians for centuries with hardly any discord between them.

The real issue was for the Palestinians that they were free rangers, who followed their herds where their herds led them to graze for forage and water. Existing property ownership laws at the time allowed for egress and to traverse all lands public and private while free ranging.

One of the first pushes in the British Mandate was on behalf of Zionists who successfully changed the existing law to allow absolute ownership of land.

It really became a situation much like free rangers versus ranchers in the Midwestern United States a few decades before that led to similar violence on the part of free rangers who had their traditional grazing routes blocked by fences and ranchers unwilling to let them pass.

While Stern and Begin were leading terrorist actions against primarily the British and to a lesser extent the Arabs, the Arabs led few of their own, all the while Zionists were strategically buying up large swaths of land, not only blocking the herding routes in the process but making it impossible to award the Palestinians a contiguous land mass of half the territories promised to the Palestinians in the British Mandate of Palestine that set up the lawful mechanism for Jewish immigration to Palestine.

The Palestinians fears had in fact been realized as through terrorism, coercion, and out and out bribery and theft, it became impossible for the British to see to a fair and equitable dispersal of the territories to the promised recipients.

Many people labor under inaccurate and incomplete glimpses of history, I am not one of them, and please take no offense that history does not support your conclusions or beliefs.

Neither does Biblical Scripture as I believe there is something written about ye reap what you sew.

Simply put a nation founded on terrorism, would be foolish to expect to have no problem with terrorism.

And that is your inaccurate and incomplete glimps of history.
I posted, under another similar thread, a much more complete overview from the time of Moses to the present.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

BBC. Barak says "the operation will only end when Hamas show a completely different way of dealing with Israel." Looks like this is going long term folks!

reply to post by JanusFIN


Humanitarian aid to the Palestinians from December 14 to 18 2008: 3124 TONS

Rocket strikes in Israel from Hamas: 215 in November and December

www.jihadwatch.org

reply to post by t0ken

Hamas can be eliminated in its entirity. Hamas relaced by Fatah will be a step forward.
Remember hundreds of tanks are on the Gazan border right now ready to move towards this aim.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
BBC. Barak says "the operation will only end when Hamas show a completely different way of dealing with Israel." Looks like this is going long term folks!

when i heard that i felt sick. i still feel sick... i don't think they will stop till everyone is 'eradicated'.

Merry Christmas and a HAPPY new year to everyone. everyone except the children of gaza.

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
BBC. Barak says "the operation will only end when Hamas show a completely different way of dealing with Israel." Looks like this is going long term folks!

And people say Barrak is gona bring a change in israeli policy?

Yeh hes gona bring a change by providing F-22s and f-35s to bomb palestinian civillians more accurately.