Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

reply to post by hypnoticka

AHA but black matter can be measured so take a brake and read again before try to prove me wrong plus did you heard of the LHC or knows as big bang 2.0 ? that largest scientific test in june 2009 is gonna answer many fundamentalist questions in detail like the one you asked and black holes etc...

No, black matter have not been measured directly, but only by their gravitational interactions, NOTHING MORE, imagine how far is to know earth only for their gravitational interactions than see, smell, touch, and taste it with all their living beings, seas etc... really diferent i think.
Well what we know about 90% of the universe is just that, gravitational interactions (and from the 10% we can see we ignore the 99.999%).
about computer simulations of universe when we can barely predict the weather in 3 or 4 days beyond (depending on the earth zone) and taking in account that not without lots of problems we can go beyond our atmosphere is really.... precipitated.Adjust the parameters to fit the observations is not science, like ptolemaic model of solar system can fit the observations and be terribly wrong, so be humble using bigbang 2.0, just to began tell me how we can simulate black matter when we ignore what it is.

brain death doesn't mean there is no chemical reaction in the brain, during NDE(death brain) the brain scans the memory that's why people have life reviews scientists said. the brain is not fully understood by nowadays science so making assumption which doesn't belong to science is pointless. its only 3 in 10 people experience NDE during brain death. explain to me why the others experience absolutely nothing if you think we have a soul

You are giving me a hipotesis about what happends in a dead brain, really you dont know, as I dont know too, at this point any hipotesis is valid.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Hi Phoenix,

It is good to hear from you.

Is it what I mentioned to you?

Yes it is...

So if you can contact me again, through U2U on abovetopsecret then I will forward all you want to know.

I am having problems uploading onto abovetopsecret , so perhaps you can achieve this for me, if I am able to email the Geometric Drawings and explanation to you.

Your help in this matter would be deeply appreciated...

There is in Fact No mystery, to all that is about this Universe but it can become very involved in its contents...

Do I know everything?????

No of course Not, but I do know a little..

But I am quite happy to release all this information to anyone who may be interested.

But remember I did say I have a Library of more than 30,000 Geometric drawings that describes everything.

The Matrix shown in my Avatar is the "Base Map", without any workings or Instruction Geometry.

This Map is recorded in the Book of Ezekiel and the Revelation and is referred to as The Man Child in some cases The Son of Man in others and The City in others but this is in Christian terms and in all other religions has other names according to their Customs.

There is the Religious references that have been hidden by Roman Doctrine and there is also knowledge by them that are aware of The All.

You are about to see a huge change in the world with regard to technology and the knowledge of who we really are and where we came from and why the universe and why we are here.

It is time for humankind to put away their fears and superstition, lust for power over one another and join the rest of those, throughout your universal experience or Universe.

But humankind's social skills will have to mature as there are those that are millions of years more advanced than the primate species call humankind on Earth.

reply to post by REIKUKI



1st of all its called dark matter not black matter and dark matter and dark energy account for the vast majority of the mass.





[edit: exceedingly large quote replaced with Reply To link]

[edit on 13-11-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

uhg, ok so this is how it goes. Your brain releases chemicals, as people have already said, which have the same effects as '___'. thus creating illusions and hallucinations. I dont expect many to believe this, but i have actually died (asthma) and obviously was brought back.

So, this is what happens. If anyone has ever been through surgery or simply had one of those dreams where you close your eyes, you open them, and they are the next day (or getting knocked out), that is what happens. im sorry, but it is black, and thats it. The experiences these people went through (assumingly) are caused by the chemicals in the brain before they died. when they were awakened it as if the hallucination is all that happened. the time laps wouldn't be noticed by the people. there for they assume the event they saw is all that happened.

Originally posted by Ghost147
uhg, ok so this is how it goes. Your brain releases chemicals, as people have already said, which have the same effects as '___'. thus creating illusions and hallucinations. I dont expect many to believe this, but i have actually died (asthma) and obviously was brought back.

So, this is what happens. If anyone has ever been through surgery or simply had one of those dreams where you close your eyes, you open them, and they are the next day (or getting knocked out), that is what happens. im sorry, but it is black, and thats it. The experiences these people went through (assumingly) are caused by the chemicals in the brain before they died. when they were awakened it as if the hallucination is all that happened. the time laps wouldn't be noticed by the people. there for they assume the event they saw is all that happened.

Don't take this personally as it is not intended to be an attack on you or to offend you.

Some are aware and others are Not aware.

Some are only program and others observe the world
from the Place of Life!

If you are not aware of Life then you are asleep.

As for myself, and I can only speak for myself, though I view the Universe and the experience of that, from "The place of Life" that is not of your world.

I often withdraw from the program you call your Universe, and return to the another place, you can not approach and spend many days there, then re-enter the program again, you think is your reality and world.

But as for myself, I prefer where I have come from, to the experience of Earth.

We often say what an Earth would you want to go to the Earth for? LOL...

The only reason for coming into this program again, is to help educate those that desire knowledge, and are Not in denial of Life, or the Place of Life.

But all, are educated in the end, and none are lost.

Your experience is just a part of your education and Not your entire education, as you have much to experience yet.

Thanks for taking things back on topic. I would like to pose the question: if NDEs (as opposed to OBEs) were chemical-induced, why would they so frequently involve a meeting with God, describing a city, meeting relatives, aspects of judgement, etc., etc., even in the case of skeptics/atheists, when a chemical would be expected to produce quite random experiences in the realm of hallucinations?

I'd agree with others that these similarities could be cultural, however, there are similarities within the '___' experience which cannot be described as cultural, which I believe are something to do with the specific energy/entity that is the plant carrier of the '___' - sorry, I don't have the words to describe this very well. So perhaps we are seeing the same things in NDE's just perceived through different cultural sensory filters.

I find it funny that some are saying ' just chemicals dude, nothing more '. Why cannot brain chemicals be the trigger/gateway to a 'mystical' experience that is just as real as any other experience we percieve daily here in 3D.

Is there any experience we have as a human that doesn't require a chemical reaction in the brain? Isn't it all 'just chemicals'? Does that make it somehow 'unreal'?

To hammer this one home: if I hammer a nail into my finger, then neurons fire, driven by chemical reactions, and I experience pain. To me, the pain is very real, but it's just chemicals. So is it real or not?

Originally posted by cruzion
The big red flag in that article is "There are cultural differences in these experiences."
That right there tells me this is a product of mind. There is an archetypal element to the different cultures reaction to near death, but I would suspect it is because the beliefs within that culture have an archetypal element to them.
If it was a glimpse into something that is out of this universe, or even just out of the spere of that culture, it would more than likely have a universal homogenity to it - not be reliant upon your cultural past.
It may be that what is happening can only be understood in terms of your cultural symbology and language, but there are a lot of NDE's that do not represent the models that are shown in the article. It would seem a persons reaction to near-death is personal. That many of them have the same qualities comes down to nothing more than cultural bias. How many of those tribesmen where told that when they die, they paddle the Great River, or how many westerners read a magazine article or watched an Oprah episode where they are talking about NDE's and moving to the light? It is there, in your subconcious, and may well be pulled out of the "what happens when you die" compartment of the subconcious when your mind realises it's just about to die. There is probably vastly more NDE's which do not fit what is 'supposed' to happen, than what actually do, as it is based on personal experience and personal reaction to the death event, and the fact they have never compatmentalised what your supposed to see when you die, as opposed to some mystic intervention.
It's just your bodies defense mechanism protecting you from the shock of your own death.

There is definitely a 'light' - this is not just something we have seen on Oprah. The light is described by all cultures, sexes, religions etc etc.

The different names given to the light varies according to cultural/religious bias

reply to post by RogerT


Thanks for your reply 2 posts back. Some good 'out-of-the box' thinking there.

From your 2nd response:

The different names given to the light varies according to cultural/religious bias

This could also be applied to other aspects of what has been reported. For example someone from a remote tribe might well speak of traveling down a 'river', while sci-fi savvy westerners report going through a cosmic 'tunnel', etc.


I see no dichotomy between release of '___' and the interpretation that the mind/soul (the real self) leaves the body.

This contribution from an anonymous poster on p.10 provides a good summary of what others have been suggesting too:

When we die our pituitary gland squirts out a big dose of '___' during our physical death. This causes what is called a NDE.

1) '___' might be associated with the onset of a NDE, but actually constitute an element of the 'unhinging' process whereby dead body and self are parted.

This interpretation is consistent with reports of sights/conversations, etc., being reported although they took place above/outside the room or even at significant distances from where the person lay dead.

2) On the other hand I've taken some time to read about the experiences of those who've taken '___'. Their experiences seem consistently bizarre. They don't seem to fit the NDE paradigm at all. This suggests at least 2 possibilities:

a) Release of '___' co-occurs with death, but is not the correct explanation for NDEs.

b) '___' is indeed involved in the transition process, as in point 1 above, but produces bizarre hallucinations/experiences when the body is still alive.

This certainly is interesting...




[edit on 14/11/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by mmariebored

You can say the same about dreams. I've had many, many dreams of things I've never seen before, not in the real world or any medium(tv, internet, newspaper etc.). Am I traveling to another dimention or out of body every time I dream? No. I believe it's much like when an artist is awake and thinking of a new design for a painting, every bit of collected data can be rearanged, recolored, sized, exaggerate and even unique creations added. The sleeping mind can do the same as the awake, better.

Give me any example of something your mind has "created" in a dream that you could not have had experience of in waking life. Even "novel" or imaginary creations are Frankenstein creations, where bits and pieces of what you are creating are assembled "novelly" from "knowns." I am talking here about things utterly beyond human experience. Even our artist depictions of "aliens" are rarely as "alien" as even life forms here on Earth that we rarely have contact with, (ie that exist in the deepest recesses of caves or at the bottom of the sea.)

The problem is that you are taking your experience, dreams, and assuming that what is going on in a NDE or "other" conscious experience of "death" (even if the death is not physical but "dreamed" for lack of a better word, is the same when you have absolutely no evidence that that is the case.

As I said in an earlier post, I AM scientifically minded, and I do look forward to the results of the study, and consider it with an open mind. As someone who is scientifically minded, however, I do get annoyed with those who are not scientifically minded but rather are "True Believers" of science who make irrational leaps about what science can and cannot say about the existence of "God" or the "Divine" or spiritual experience.

I am intelligent enough to know that what I experienced is something that I could not have acquired knowledge of in any "normal" way. In fact, no matter how many long, laborious and lengthy posts I create trying to point out the most important aspect or revelation of that experience, I cannot even get someone's mind to move even slightly in the direction of comprehension of it. They can mouth the words, and often they think they understand, but as you begin to walk through the concept it is very apparent that there is no true comprehension.

In fact, greater and more intelligent minds than my own, who have also had the experience of this have not only tried and failed themselves, but some have analyzed the workings of language and the mind and come to the conclusion that it is an impossible task. (Plato for example) So where are we getting this concept that is beyond the mind, and that even our own minds, (those who have had the experience) have difficulty "understanding" even after the fact, and that cannot be explained using the tools of the mind, (language, artistic representation, etc) to someone that has not also had the experience?

In short, you cannot compare your dreams or artistic creating with these sorts of experiences. I have had dreams, and created artistically, and had a NDE, and then a "dream" in which I died again (though not physically) and I can assure you that they are NOT the same type of event. They may all well turn out to have some basis in the chemistry of the brain, and a "natural" explanation, but you arent going to come to that conclusion in any scientifically sound way by studying the one more common human experience and then extrapolating to the other. They are different, and they need to be studied separately before any sound determination can be made of their similarity. Perhaps they are founded in the same principle, but your methodology, using "normal" experience without looking at the extraordinary without prejudice as well is not anything approaching scientific.

The problem with studying this sort of event is two fold, one, the NDE is extremely dangerous to induce, and even if you do induce "death" the lack of the experience would prove nothing, as you could never know if inducing physical death really was the "trigger" for the event. (In other words, if there were a Divine, or God involved, and you induced someone to die, that "soul" or consciousness may never begin the process because that same "Divine" did not initiate their end of it. ) Induction is biased towards the event being purely physical. If that assumption is wrong, and there is a supernatural component, and the Divine refuses to comply, you will never have the chance to study it.

Secondly, in the other non-physical death related experience, there are no drugs that I know of that reliably induce that state. I have read many accounts of those who believe they can achieve this state with substances, but have satisfied myself that they are not describing that same "non-human" phenomenon at all. Allowing of course for much questioning to attempt to circumvent the language and thinking problem to even reach that conclusion.

Originally posted by mmariebored
Science hasn't clearly defined the difference between the mind and conscience. How do we know our mind(conscience, spirit, awareness) isn't larger than our whole bodies? We don't know. No scientific proof has ever been convincing enough to record any of this as fact.

Again, there is a difference between being a "True Believer" of science and a scientist. Your statement above places you into the former category. Why? Because you do not automatically turn it right around. Science has also done nothing to prove as a "fact" that consciousness and mind are one and the same. Nor have they conclusively proven as a fact that there is not conscious experience "post mortem." Have they? And the term "fact" in science, from a scientists point of view, should always be "that which all evidence we have utilizing current technology points to now" rather than as something written in stone. How many historical scientific "facts" are now known to be rubbish, and how many of our current crop of "facts" will survive the next couple thousand years?

If you are going to play scientist, and bash religious "true believers" then do not yourself be one. Show some of the scientific integrity you are so willing to borrow to add legitimacy to your own argument, and apply the same rigor to your own pet theories and beliefs that you ask others to apply to theirs.



[edit on 14-11-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by pause4thought


Yes, there do seem to be quite a few differences, but as I said before, there are some striking similarities:

tunnels
sense of one-ness with all things
light
beings

and many others.

In the '___' accounts you read, was there a variety of sources of '___' i.e. Ayahuasca, San Pedro, Yopo, manufactured in a lab, etc ? I am convinced the plant 'carrier' has an effect and brings it's own 'medicine' to the party, for example, the snake is usually prevalent in Ayahuasca visions and is said to embody the Aya spirit.

Hi Illusions, how's it going?

I see you are still standing by your statement that your experience is not recreatable by swallowing a cup or three of 'the medicine'
Instead of basing this hypothesis on interpreting others' accounts, when you yourself admit that 'words cannot convey', why not do the scientific thing and test your hypo personally?

reply to post by RogerT


It seems we are in agreement that what people report during NDEs is to some degree couched in terms that reflect culture, yet the experience consistently involves the same basic elements, with a variety of different emphases.

As to the source of '___' 'trips', Ayahuasca seemed prominent. Just type '___' into the search facility. What people experience actually seems far more related to the alien/demonic visitation scenario than NDEs.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Give me any example of something your mind has "created" in a dream that you could not have had experience of in waking life. Even "novel" or imaginary creations are Frankenstein creations, where bits and pieces of what you are creating are assembled "novelly" from "knowns." I am talking here about things utterly beyond human experience.

This isn't a dream thread or I'd gladly give plenty of examples. Not to prove what I'm saying, because there really is no point. I said the human -sleeping- mind creates BETTER than the awake mind, which is no more provable than NDE or out of body flying experiences. You can exchange experiences with other people, that's fine, I'm all for that and remain openminded while reading each and every account. But my mind does close when I see people come into a thread with their ancient dogma, that they didn't even come up with themselves, and try to sell it to the masses based on other people's experiences.

The problem is that you are taking your experience, dreams, and assuming that what is going on in a NDE or "other" conscious experience of "death" (even if the death is not physical but "dreamed" for lack of a better word, is the same when you have absolutely no evidence that that is the case.

Neither do these people. That's all I was saying. They have a study, yes, they're working on it, sure, but don't call the earth flat as a fact until you've gone all the way to the "edge" and proved your case, is all I'm asking. They've not proved anything so far, yet some are already preaching about it as fact. And you have the nerve to call my kettle black. Shame on you.

As I said in an earlier post, I AM scientifically minded, and I do look forward to the results of the study, and consider it with an open mind.

What a coincidence, me too. I'm very much looking forward to the end results. The ONLY skepticism I have is that we do NOT have the correct tools to do this yet and it will be a good LONG time before we do and before that happens.

As someone who is scientifically minded, however, I do get annoyed with those who are not scientifically minded but rather are "True Believers" of science who make irrational leaps about what science can and cannot say about the existence of "God" or the "Divine" or spiritual experience.
I am intelligent enough to know that what I experienced is something that I could not have acquired knowledge of in any "normal" way. In fact, no matter how many long, laborious and lengthy posts I create trying to point out the most important aspect or revelation of that experience, I cannot even get someone's mind to move even slightly in the direction of comprehension of it. They can mouth the words, and often they think they understand, but as you begin to walk through the concept it is very apparent that there is no true comprehension.
In fact, greater and more intelligent minds than my own, who have also had the experience of this have not only tried and failed themselves, but some have analyzed the workings of language and the mind and come to the conclusion that it is an impossible task. (Plato for example) So where are we getting this concept that is beyond the mind, and that even our own minds, (those who have had the experience) have difficulty "understanding" even after the fact, and that cannot be explained using the tools of the mind, (language, artistic representation, etc) to someone that has not also had the experience?

Maybe you should start your own thread and keep the posters exclusive to your group of those who've had a NDE? Then maybe you won't be so defensive to people like me.

The problem with studying this sort of event is two fold, one, the NDE is extremely dangerous to induce, and even if you do induce "death" the lack of the experience would prove nothing, as you could never know if inducing physical death really was the "trigger" for the event. (In other words, if there were a Divine, or God involved, and you induced someone to die, that "soul" or consciousness may never begin the process because that same "Divine" did not initiate their end of it. ) Induction is biased towards the event being purely physical. If that assumption is wrong, and there is a supernatural component, and the Divine refuses to comply, you will never have the chance to study it.

Did you ever think that some mysteries were not meant to be tampered with and this is why the experiments may never be provable? Maybe the "Divine", as you said, is the only one allowed to choose who will experience what and when. Maybe we're not allowed and shouldn't try because it could be dangerous for the test subjects. We are, after all, holding their very life in our hands. I wonder how many deaths or brain damage cases it will take before this study is put on hold until we actually do have the proper tools, if that's even possible.

Again, there is a difference between being a "True Believer" of science and a scientist. Your statement above places you into the former category. Why? Because you do not automatically turn it right around. Science has also done nothing to prove as a "fact" that consciousness and mind are one and the same. Nor have they conclusively proven as a fact that there is not conscious experience "post mortem." Have they? And the term "fact" in science, from a scientists point of view, should always be "that which all evidence we have utilizing current technology points to now" rather than as something written in stone. How many historical scientific "facts" are now known to be rubbish, and how many of our current crop of "facts" will survive the next couple thousand years?

First of all, that's a harsh judgement based on one word "fact", considering I was only asking for proof of their statements to begin with and saying that the fact was they could not prove it. You really stretched that to make your insult, how childish of you.

As far as "playing scientist", every human ever born IS a natural scientist. I agree with you that the more we learn the less open our minds become, because what we learn becomes dependant on what others have learned. Many people use other people's knowledge as a crutch for the rest of their life and never again tap their own natural scientific abilities again. It's a shame. But I'm sorry, don't include me in that group because you are incorrect.

Just because it sickens me to see people gathering around and pimping their religions in every thread they hope will back their beliefs, doesn't take away from my openmindedness of scientific discoveries and prospects. I'm not a "True Believer", as you say, that was very wrong of you to assume.

Originally posted by pause4thought

The unwillingness of some people to open their minds to the possibility their preconceptions are wrong simply does not lend itself to getting to the bottom of a matter.

...it is not unwillingness, it is THE FEAR that they could be 'judged' for irresponsible actions during their lives after all...

funny thing is that there are only two possible outcomes after death:

1. 'there is' the void/nothingness
2. there is an afterlife

if there is the void, it 'will be' great: no more pain and suffering... nothing will/did exist ever (which is a paradox in itself)

and if there is the afterlife, what is going on there?

I personally am ready for both possibilities and I do not understand people that ignore a (BIG) 50% chance that there IS something after they die (consequently people end up in so called 'hells' and 'hollow heavens' just because of a lack of knowledge... read Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen books)

cheers

reply to post by donhuangenaro

Oh spare me. Not everyone has a history of evil deeds that causes them to deny an afterlife. What kind of fantasyland talk is that? Just because some people's standard of proof is higher than others? Higher than people who believe every salesperson capable of enslaving them with mere words. You keep telling yourself that.

This thread has been hijacked by religion-pushers.

reply to post by mmariebored


Donhuangenaro's reasoning is totally valid.

The possibility of continuance of life after death is inextricably linked with the faith of billions of people. To ignore that would be very odd, and suggest closed-mindedness.

Why talk of 'pushing religion' when people are simply presenting evidence? If it really were just a case of 'Let's get to the bottom of the matter' why preclude the religious/spiritual dimension?

I'm not religious at all.

However, I simply have no reason to think their ISN'T an afterlife.

As far as I know I have always existed in some form or another. All we know is that at some point or another our consciousness leaves our physical bodies.

This idea of "death" is man made and I have no reason to think that "I" die with my physical body.

Originally posted by RogerT

Hi Illusions, how's it going?

I see you are still standing by your statement that your experience is not recreatable by swallowing a cup or three of 'the medicine'

Instead of basing this hypothesis on interpreting others' accounts, when you yourself admit that 'words cannot convey', why not do the scientific thing and test your hypo personally?

Hey Roger, I am still standing by that assertion. Lol. And I would do the scientific thing if I had any inkling how. As it is, I am left in the less scientific position of comparing notes, and as we have touched on before, I think the '___' experience is very, very, close, I think it takes you as far as most NDE's do, I just dont hear evidence that it takes you "through the gate" past your "self" or your own individuality.

So, to be clear, I am not saying it doesnt take you as far as many NDE's do, but I am saying it doesnt take you where "death itself" does. I am saying it based only on the comparing of notes, however, and I admit that reports alone are not the ideal comparison.

In my desire, or wish, I would wish there WERE a substance that could reliably produce the phenomenon of going past your "self" or identity. That would solve enormous volumes of problems. I think however, the key lies in consciousness or "free will" itself. Even if a substance can get you to the gate, it cannot make you walk through. There is a conscious willingness to "let go" of yourself in a way that feels very permanent that needs to happen, and it goes against everything the "self" or identity wants. I dont think most people actually make that decision, even if the substance gets them to the "spot" where that could occur.

OK everyone lets look at just the simple knowledge whether so called scienific or non scientific or even just belief...

1. Your Consciousness is "Aware" of your parts of your body.
But your hands feet and another parts of your body are Not,
aware of your Mind or Consciousness.

2. The Brain is a Decoder/Encoder. this is not difficult to understand!

3. Your structure of the Body is controlled by DNA and this is a "Chemical
based Program" whether you Like it or Not.
Our Bodies are a chemical factory Yes but that is the Processing System
and Not the Observer.

4. DNA is an automatic program and Does Not know anything.

5. It is impossible for someone who has no recollection of a death
experience, to comprehend what is described by those who have,
in its true context.

6. The Brain can't see anything or know anything as it is a component
of a a processing system only and Not the Observer!

7. The Eyes cannot see anything, or know anything, as they are,
a component of a a processing system only.

8. A TV set, or Computer is involved in a process, but this does Not mean
they know anything, or are aware of anything !!!!

9. Awareness is an Observer, and Not the Observed
as your Universe is.

10. This can't be proven but, Not all people have awareness but are only
automatic programs without awareness. These can Not function
after the story is finished for them. Theses are the majority of cases.
This is why we hold Consciousness as being a very precious gift,
The Gift of Life!

11. If the Brain was in the place of Life then you would be able to feel
in your head the origin of different thoughts.

12. Dreams are Involuntary.... Otherwise you would be able
to dream right now, at this moment and you know you can't!!!!
No matter how absurd your dreams appear to be at times,
they are still structured by something in order to present pictures,
in full colour, by something other than you.

13.If you think you are in Control! Why do you suffer from unhappiness
from time to time, disagreement, illness and death?
Or is it that you enjoy suffering.
I Don't think so.
Yet something else is Definitely in control over you, now isn't it????
Just as well or you would be in all sorts of trouble... LOL..
But What is in Control????
And Why????

14. The Reasoning mechanism in humankind, has "Double Logic"
(Opposites) structured into it! The proof is that we have to experiment
or investigate because we are in a state of being Lost,
otherwise we would know everything now wouldn't we????

so stop Pretending!!!
Face the reality that Humankind are nothing more than Biological robots,
Controlled by The Mind.
The Mind has Two ends just as all things in your universe has.

Up and Down, Left and Right, to & fro, Black and White, Yellow and Blue,
Inner and Outer, Toward and Away, This is because it is a condition of Dimension, 2D or 3D...

So the Mind also has Two Ends, otherwise it could not exist!

Let us then attempt to find the other end, of our Consciousness, by coming
to know yourselves.

Know Thy Self.







[edit on 15-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mmariebored

 

Donhuangenaro's reasoning is totally valid.

The possibility of continuance of life after death is inextricably linked with the faith of billions of people. To ignore that would be very odd, and suggest closed-mindedness.

Why talk of 'pushing religion' when people are simply presenting evidence? If it really were just a case of 'Let's get to the bottom of the matter' why preclude the religious/spiritual dimension?

just because billions of people are religious it doesn't mean there is afterlife like you said its faith, sorry but faith is not evidence and i think everybody knows this