Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

reply to post by hypnoticka

the ignorant is you because you think your religion is the right one and the others are crap

For one who wishes to give the impression they bask in science you spout a shocking amount of assumptions.

This is one of the very first threads I started on ATS:

Why Muslims should be treated with more respect

there are other religious scientists as well

My point exactly. The fact that so many of them believe in God - whether they agree with my faith or not - suggests you have even less grounds for an ad hominem attack in this regard.

99% of the scientific community doesn't support your religion

The more baseless claims you make the less I am inclined to take you seriously. Unless, of course, you wish to cite the research. (Not likely, as you endlessly use unfounded claims in your contributions.)

for example francis collins who is a born again christians accepted evolution

And?..

Many people want it to be a religious, paranormal or supernatural phenomenon. The fact that NDEs can be explained scientifically detracts from the mystique. - Mark Mahowald, director of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center

Oh, I capitulate, then.

You are a hoot.

reply to post by hypnoticka


Look I am Not against my own work in Science but I have to say There are the Opinions of of the Scientific Community and there is what is Reality beyond Human reasoning.

All human reasoning, comes through a "Double Logic System" which is in the structure of your DNA.

This is why we label the observations in Science, as Theories.

I have absolutely no conflict with Science, but in the end even my own work on Optical Interfaces ais based on our understanding of so called reality.

Science has never been absolute and never will be, but some try to seek security in the findings of science, because of their denied insecurities and need something to believe in.

No Offence intended in this statement. All humanity looks for security in something which is perfectly normal.

Science does its best to explain things, but I am afraid to say at the end of the day, all our work in the scientific community is still obtained through the Double Logic System within our selves.

If this were Not True, then we would Not have to be involved in Research and Development.

We would Not have to investigate anything or experiment.

I hope this is taken in the context it was intended and that people can see Science in it's True Light.

I will make it Quite clear again for you, in that I accept and support the Scientific community and believe that it is very healthy.

It is getting better as we progress in our understanding, but in saying this, Science should Not be Misrepresented.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
reply to post by hypnoticka

 

Look I am Not against my own work in Science but I have to say There are the Opinions of of the Scientific Community and there is what is Reality beyond Human reasoning.

All human reasoning, comes through a "Double Logic System" which is in the structure of your DNA.

This is why we label the observations in Science, as Theories.

I have absolutely no conflict with Science, but in the end even my own work on Optical Interfaces ais based on our understanding of so called reality.

Science has never been absolute and never will be, but some try to seek security in the findings of science, because of their denied insecurities and need something to believe in.

No Offence intended in this statement. All humanity looks for security in something which is perfectly normal.

Science does its best to explain things, but I am afraid to say at the end of the day, all our work in the scientific community is still obtained through the Double Logic System within our selves.

If this were Not True, then we would Not have to be involved in Research and Development.

We would Not have to investigate anything or experiment.

I hope this is taken in the context it was intended and that people can see Science in it's True Light.

I will make it Quite clear again for you, in that I accept and support the Scientific community and believe that it is very healthy.

It is getting better as we progress in our understanding, but in saying this, Science should Not be Misrepresented.

i agree with you but supernatural doesn't belong to science law, science is science, it is there to investigate mysteries as it always did in the past 100 + years and it always came up with an explanation

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by hypnoticka

 

the ignorant is you because you think your religion is the right one and the others are crap

For one who wishes to give the impression they bask in science you spout a shocking amount of assumptions.

This is one of the very first threads I started on ATS:

Why Muslims should be treated with more respect

there are other religious scientists as well

My point exactly. The fact that so many of them believe in God - whether they agree with my faith or not - suggests you have even less grounds for an ad hominem attack in this regard.

99% of the scientific community doesn't support your religion

The more baseless claims you make the less I am inclined to take you seriously. Unless, of course, you wish to cite the research. (Not likely, as you endlessly use unfounded claims in your contributions.)

for example francis collins who is a born again christians accepted evolution

And?..

Many people want it to be a religious, paranormal or supernatural phenomenon. The fact that NDEs can be explained scientifically detracts from the mystique. - Mark Mahowald, director of the Minnesota Regional Sleep Disorders Center

Oh, I capitulate, then.

You are a hoot.

godness scientists leave their faith out side of science research, you cannot implement your faith in science because that's not science. science is to unlock mystery not to say "god it". you said Christianity is the truth in your other message, doesn't that means the others are false to you ?, there's a difference btw respect and believes, you might respect other religions but you don't believe in them

Why would you think just because something can be reproduced by chemicals and stimulating the brain it isn't real?

Their is no difference between science and magic.

The only difference is people's ability to comprehend.

The fact is, PRECONCEIVED notions effect the way everyone looks at evidence.

If someone doesn't believe the mind and the brain are separate entities this evidence can be rationalized away as inconclusive.

NO evidence is conclusive, even in a lab you can only get so close.

If someone does believe the mind and the brain are separate entities this evidence would support that. The reason is because other explanations don't seem as logical and are just speculation.

However, if you REALLY don't believe in an afterlife or a soul or whatever you want to call it, your logic will take you to a different conclusion.

As science moves forward fact becomes fiction and vice versa, it has happened before and it will happen again.

Science is our BEST guess but the best guess always changes and preconceived notions just make the change slower.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by Jezus]

reply to post by hypnoticka

you cannot implement your faith in science because that's not science

It appears you are saying someone who has accepted the historicity and authenticity of certain past events is somehow precluded from practicing science. Bizarre and about as intolerant as could be.

science is to unlock mystery not to say "god it"

Your preconception of the nature of faith is simply incorrect, at least with respect to the Christian faith. It is based on historical events and writings, not some mystical, uninformed guessing-game that precludes enquiry.

you said Christianity is the truth in your other message, doesn't that means the others are false to you ?, there's a difference btw respect and believes, you might respect other religions but you don't believe in them

Largely correct. I'm relieved I can agree with you on something we have discussed.

I believe other religions contain a great deal of man's thoughts about God, whereas Christ was God coming into the world. That is the meaning of the Christian term 'incarnation' - God Himself taking on flesh, veiling His true essence for the purpose of demonstrating the limitless extent of His love for human beings.

That is not to say that other religions do not contain truth. Christ fulfilled the Jewish prophetic writings, Islam is monotheistic, etc. Furthermore, believing that every human being was created by the God I trust and love, I seek to follow Christ's teaching to show respect, benevolence and practical kindness to all, regardless of their beliefs.

reply to post by hypnoticka


Well much of what you have said is correct, but there is work being done with regard to what the public call the supernatural, but just because you have Not heard of such work being done, does Not mean this research doesn't exist.

There is so much fear and superstition within the public sector, as can be seen even within these threads, that it is Not prudent to publish much of this research.

There is much, that the Pubic is not informed about, as it is Not in their best interests (I refer to human social development), and much of this education comes about in the public sector by discovering things for themselves in a natural way.

The first priority is that people should feel safe within their communities and this in its self, is not an easy task.

But I believe myself, that the structures involved with the releasing of information or about keeping the public informed, is the best that can be done at this time with good intentions.



[edit on 11-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by melatonin


I had a feeling that he was referring to one of those experiments. He's referring to the Ehrsson study, not the Blanke one. I just couldn't remember who the researcher was. As close to an OOBE it may seem, it's still not so. It doesn't explain people being able to move around while out of their body. I was able to move around in mine. Although strangely enough I wasn't able to move through walls and ceilings (I merely bounced against the ceiling like a ball), I went straight through closed doors in my longest OOBE, and briefly exited my house, floating about 15-20 ft high about 20-25ft in front of the house. Those studies do not explain my experience, and they still do not explain veridical NDE's.

reply to post by TheBandit795


Fascinating. Is there a thread about your experiences?

Also: pity those videos about veridical NDEs quoted in an earlier post are now broken links. Any chance of re-finding the videos & linking?

Thanks.

reply to post by pause4thought



I've posted in different threads. There's one in RATS that stands out though. But you would have to go there to read it because I will not post anything about it in public.

I'll see if I can find the video's again.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by melatonin

 

I had a feeling that he was referring to one of those experiments. He's referring to the Ehrsson study, not the Blanke one. I just couldn't remember who the researcher was. As close to an OOBE it may seem, it's still not so. It doesn't explain people being able to move around while out of their body. I was able to move around in mine. Although strangely enough I wasn't able to move through walls and ceilings (I merely bounced against the ceiling like a ball), I went straight through closed doors in my longest OOBE, and briefly exited my house, floating about 15-20 ft high about 20-25ft in front of the house. Those studies do not explain my experience, and they still do not explain veridical NDE's.

it explains yours, they are differently to everyone, its up to you if you want to deny it but there's an explanation. there will be hundreds of explanations in the upcoming 5 years.

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by hypnoticka

 

you cannot implement your faith in science because that's not science

It appears you are saying someone who has accepted the historicity and authenticity of certain past events is somehow precluded from practicing science. Bizarre and about as intolerant as could be.

science is to unlock mystery not to say "god it"

Your preconception of the nature of faith is simply incorrect, at least with respect to the Christian faith. It is based on historical events and writings, not some mystical, uninformed guessing-game that precludes enquiry.

you said Christianity is the truth in your other message, doesn't that means the others are false to you ?, there's a difference btw respect and believes, you might respect other religions but you don't believe in them

Largely correct. I'm relieved I can agree with you on something we have discussed.

I believe other religions contain a great deal of man's thoughts about God, whereas Christ was God coming into the world. That is the meaning of the Christian term 'incarnation' - God Himself taking on flesh, veiling His true essence for the purpose of demonstrating the limitless extent of His love for human beings.

That is not to say that other religions do not contain truth. Christ fulfilled the Jewish prophetic writings, Islam is monotheistic, etc. Furthermore, believing that every human being was created by the God I trust and love, I seek to follow Christ's teaching to show respect, benevolence and practical kindness to all, regardless of their beliefs.

don't be stupid, history archeology doesn't validate facts, why don't you believe in the ancient Egypt's gods and Asian's gods ? these have the same historically archeology

Originally posted by Jezus
Why would you think just because something can be reproduced by chemicals and stimulating the brain it isn't real?

Their is no difference between science and magic.

The only difference is people's ability to comprehend.

The fact is, PRECONCEIVED notions effect the way everyone looks at evidence.

If someone doesn't believe the mind and the brain are separate entities this evidence can be rationalized away as inconclusive.

NO evidence is conclusive, even in a lab you can only get so close.

If someone does believe the mind and the brain are separate entities this evidence would support that. The reason is because other explanations don't seem as logical and are just speculation.

However, if you REALLY don't believe in an afterlife or a soul or whatever you want to call it, your logic will take you to a different conclusion.

As science moves forward fact becomes fiction and vice versa, it has happened before and it will happen again.

Science is our BEST guess but the best guess always changes and preconceived notions just make the change slower.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by Jezus]

buddy science doesn't work like that, you are misinterpret every subject of science if science worked like, then we'd not be where we are.

reply to post by hypnoticka


Dont argue Science, and dont derail.

Science helps us understand the understandable, and Beleifs help understand the UN-understandable.

They mix and you get, Scientology....

Back to subject?

Originally posted by Smugallo
Hold yer horses there dudes.

Once your dead, that it. Nothing, void. You only get one chance get over it.

Well have you got a big surprise coming one fine day.
I have had plenty of personal proof that there is an afterlife. The most important though was in June last year. My dear wife Ede passed away at the end of May, 2007. After the funeral I went down from Cairns to Melbourne to spend a couple of weeks with my daughter. I had only been there two nights when I woke suddenly with Ede's voice still ringing in my ears. She came through loud and clear and was calling out to me asking 'Can You Hear Me'. Though I have had things like this happen plenty of times, it still gives one a bit of a fright. I thought Fiona had come into my room and perhaps she was calling me. But the room was in darkness and silent. Naturally I told Fiona what had happened in the morning. Next night Ede tried to get through again, this time with Fiona. Like me, Fiona woke in a fright. Only thing was that with Fiona, Ede's word were jumbled - too fast. This is normal when it is the first time you experience it. The following day I shot into Melbourne and went to the Victorian Spiritualist Union to get a quick reading. I had never been there before, Ever. They didn't know me at all, and only asked for my first name. At first the medium talked about my father saying his name was Edward. Not quite right - it was John Edward, but I recognised the reason for stressing Edward. Then after ten minutes the medium sat straight up and said, "WHO IS EDITH?" As he went on all doubt was removed. He couldn't have known that she liked to be called Ede or Eadie - Her son Mike has a horse he named 'Eadie May' and after it won an early race, Mike gave us a framed picture of the horse winning. Ede loved to sit and look at it. He couldn't have known about the Ankh cross I bought for her in Cairns not long before she passed. He couldn't have known that she sat with it in her hands.
There is much more to the world than you can ever imagine, and you can see more of it if you open your mind to it.

reply to post by Malankhkare


It can be explained, unfortunatley.

From another sites meme: Post Pics or GT*O!,

Direct and to the point(but slightly distaseful), but it arises an exxelent opputunity for you, say out loud," i need proof you are talking to me, and im not crazy". And have a camera

reply to post by hypnoticka

don't be stupid, history archeology doesn't validate facts, why don't you believe in the ancient Egypt's gods and Asian's gods ? these have the same historically archeology

There really is no need to cast insults & risk further points deductions.

Your meaning regarding archeology is not entirely clear. Suffice it to say I have met a couple of archeology professors who share my faith, one of whom is a leader in his field. (I could list many other scientists who are personal friends and who share my faith such as a research mathematician (who is on ATS), a chemical engineer, a PhD physicist, hospital consultants, a cancer researcher, and on and on, but there doesn't seem much point in listing them all.)

I don't believe in those other God's because they were not able to foretell future events in exquisite detail hundreds/thousands of years in advance, left no god-like moral teachings, never entered the world in the form of a man and never demonstrated their power over death itself.

Let's not drift off topic, though.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I had a feeling that he was referring to one of those experiments. He's referring to the Ehrsson study, not the Blanke one. I just couldn't remember who the researcher was. As close to an OOBE it may seem, it's still not so. It doesn't explain people being able to move around while out of their body. I was able to move around in mine. Although strangely enough I wasn't able to move through walls and ceilings (I merely bounced against the ceiling like a ball), I went straight through closed doors in my longest OOBE, and briefly exited my house, floating about 15-20 ft high about 20-25ft in front of the house. Those studies do not explain my experience, and they still do not explain veridical NDE's.

Well, they are simulated OBEs produced by messing with sensory input. If we can induce a pseudo-OBE in such a way, it shows the experience to be possibly related to areas which underpin the spatial sense of self and its related sensory inputs.

And we find that some patients with lesions in particular regions of the brain that underpin this very process can precipitate a tendency to experience OBEs.

As for veridical, I sort of approached that issue a few times. If the brain can receive sensory input, it can form an ongoing narrative. In this and other cases, previously processed information can readily enter into an internal narrative, it does so for many every night. The information doesn't even need to explicitly processed, implicit processing would be sufficient. And finally, memory isn't some sort of uncorruptable data file. It is a construction, and is reconstructed each time we recall and consolidate. Bartlett's work from the 1930s is a good starting point for this particular issue.

One way to get beyond the above issues is by undertaking exactly what Parnia is attempting. The stimuli will be hidden. They will be preselected and randomised. Hopefully it will be a blinded study. As long as the interviews are conducted effectively, it will reduce potential confounds like I outlined above. So if the minds are gonna fly around the room, they should be well-placed.

[edit on 11-11-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by melatonin

 

I had a feeling that he was referring to one of those experiments. He's referring to the Ehrsson study, not the Blanke one. I just couldn't remember who the researcher was. As close to an OOBE it may seem, it's still not so. It doesn't explain people being able to move around while out of their body. I was able to move around in mine. Although strangely enough I wasn't able to move through walls and ceilings (I merely bounced against the ceiling like a ball), I went straight through closed doors in my longest OOBE, and briefly exited my house, floating about 15-20 ft high about 20-25ft in front of the house. Those studies do not explain my experience, and they still do not explain veridical NDE's.

I'm not clear on what those studies are. But I assume they say they can recreate the feeling of being outside your body.

That does NOT disprove anything? Right?

Would recreating the feeling of being touched, or the sound of a song in your mind, mean that music and being touched is not real?

??

Anyway I'm actually experimenting myself to see the true reality of OBE. When I OBE I'm going to try and look at my hidden cards, then verify them after waking up, if this is a success, this proves it to myself.

I'll tell you guys if I ever accomplish this. I love flying so I get distracted haha. Sometimes I feel the g-force feeling, it's so amazing!



I've had a few OBE's that almost verify it's real, but it could be coincidence, for example once I went outside and flew around and it was raining, when I woke up, I thought hey it's not raining? But then I looked outside and it was! Not proof thou. Another time I saw my brother, when I woke up he was wearing the same clothes, little things like that etc.




[edit on 11-11-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by melatonin


Don't misunderstand me, but we all have a little problem, that hides in our DNA Structure, that introduces "Double Logic" and this contaminates our whole being.

Guess why we get ill, why we don't know very much and more to the point why we Die !!!!

If it were Not the Case, these discussions would Not be taking place, right now.....

Humankind of the Primate family, are looking for security in their own insecure selves.

This is why they and I are looking for the answers.

You only look for what you don't have !!! I refer to knowledge...

When humanity comes to find in their own time, that they are Holographic biological machines or robots, controlled to some degree by the mind which they call the human mind and are looking at a Holographic universe then they shall understand how to find their way home.

Look the mind is Not in the Brain!

The brain is a Decoder/Encoder, between The True Mind and the Program that is being experienced!

The members of you body don't know your Conscious State but your Conscious State knows all of them!

Your eyes or your brain can't see anything at all, it is The Mind that sees and Observes the Program.

The True Mind (incorrectly called the Human Mind) is The Observer!

And the Body and World is the Holographic manifestation, that is being Observed!

I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

Anyone who knows their selves, knows this and has no problem in accepting Life or Consciousness, and their Fleshy body, as that of the Primate Species.

Last time I looked in a mirror, I saw a Primate.

Maybe others pretend to be a fish or cat or giraffe or some other animal, but I am rather attached to this Primate, I have been blessed with..LOL.

Even though it is just a Holographic experience we are experiencing.

But hey, just accept you, The Mind, are alive, and the body has no life and be thankful for the gift of Life you have received unless you can make a better world !!!!

Some how I don't think you are quite up to making a Universe and neither am I, so stop criticising Life or the True Mind, but rather enjoy the Experience of Self discovery.

I had to deny everything I had perceived, before my Death experience, and re look at everything again.

Do I have all the answers?

No !!!!

Why do Primates Demand what has produced all this, should only work according to the stupidity of Primates...

I would rather turn away from human stupidity, and try and understand reality.

This means taking All things into account....

But this does Not turn me away from Scientific Research now Does it ???

Science is the expression of Understanding in, the Primates Terms Only....

The Primates understanding, is part of your reality, but it is Not All Reality...

Which of you Primates, including this one that is my body of flesh and bones, are prepared to make the Rules that determines your existence.

I myself am not willing to do this myself, are You ??????

Oops......

I would rather try and understand the rules in the best way I can, considering I have this little problem of "Double Logic" in my DNA as well as you.

But remember DNA is a chemical based Program that is responsible for your form and functions!

Or who of us, is stupid enough to reject that DNA
is a Chemical Program ?????

And you will soon find that it is Not just DNA that is a program but everything else also has a program to it as well.