Near-death experiences are real and we have the proof, say scientists

Originally posted by hypnoticka

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mmariebored

 

Donhuangenaro's reasoning is totally valid.

The possibility of continuance of life after death is inextricably linked with the faith of billions of people. To ignore that would be very odd, and suggest closed-mindedness.

Why talk of 'pushing religion' when people are simply presenting evidence? If it really were just a case of 'Let's get to the bottom of the matter' why preclude the religious/spiritual dimension?

just because billions of people are religious it doesn't mean there is afterlife like you said its faith, sorry but faith is not evidence and i think everybody knows this

Absolutely True No truer words have been spoken!

So what do you do next to find out what happens after the Last breath that the Primate takes or any other animal takes That is The Question?

Although people may make claims I am religious I can assure You I am Not....

I can however relate, to what has been written by humanity, in the past
and this means even going back, many thousands of years, but in saying this a huge amount of research has to be done by myself and others.


It is important to ask the right questions though!

If you ask the Right Questions, You get the Right Answers

But if You ask The Wrong Questions, you find The Wrong Answers!

So Wisdom is found in Knowing, the Questions to ask and accept the answers that can't be disproved or stick in your throat as to say.

But if you search with an honest approach, wanting to find The Truth
then you will eventually find it and know what you need to do.

All Religions have been bastardised through the ages, by those with undesirable motives, and Not in the Interests of the General Public.

Here is a Quote from an old script but reminds us to be prudent.

Quote:

"The Pharisees and the scribes (Scribes?????)
have taken The Keys of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed to enter
those who wish to.

You, however,
be as wise as serpents
and as innocent as doves."

Thoughts?????

To those saying we only have one shot at life, I don't see why you're even making the leap that people are talking about reincarnation. This thread is about near death experiences. Typically out of body experiences which happen at near death.

You can dispute the immortality of the soul all you like, but I think that is rather missing the point of this topic. I thought that the OBE's during NDE's was already established fact. This thread just provides more evidence for it.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Living in NM I'm surprised you can't find access to some medicinal plants capable of delivering '___'.

Access depends a lot on the country, some countries it's illegal, some are legal, and some are on the borderline depending on how and where it is done.

You can try finding a Santo Daime church near you:
en.wikipedia.org...

They routinely use Aya as part of their ceremonies.

If you are willing to go overseas, then you are very close to the heart of Ayahuasca (S. America). There is no shortage of 'tourist' Aya trips to Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, Colombia etc. They range from v. Expensive fancy accomodation trips, to 'let's go native' for a few bucks.

Just make sure that you tell the shaman you are not there as a tourist and would like to go the whole way. 3 sessions is a good minimum.

You can ask for specific things from your experience with your intention, but at the end of the day, you'll get what Aya wants to show you.

Just be prepared to see the dark as well as the light

A word of warning: even those who find this substance fascinating warn that it is extreme ('once every 6 months max', they said). One proponent that I read said they knew people who were left with permanent psychosis & are still in institutions because of it. (I don't have time to find the link now, but will try to add it later.)

Originally posted by pause4thought
A word of warning: even those who find this substance fascinating warn that it is extreme ('once every 6 months max', they said). One proponent that I read said they knew people who were left with permanent psychosis & are still in institutions because of it. (I don't have time to find the link now, but will try to add it later.)

Thank You for your Words of Wisdom to the thread and Hope people will take Notice of what you have said in this Post.

People Must realise that You can't climb over the Wall, but Must enter by the Door Only!

knock and it shall be opened unto you!

Jesus Said,

"I am a Door to them That know Me, Knock on Me!"

Peace be with You....

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Although people may make claims I am religious I can assure You I am Not....

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Jesus Said,

"I am a Door to them That know Me, Knock on Me!"

That's from the religion of Christianity.
(pick a version, any version)

If you're not religious, why preach The Message?

Are you saying you're a hypocrite, one who guides people into one of the slaughterhouses of religion but will not go there yourself?
Because that is the only conclusion to reach when considering your two statements.


I apologize to the OP for the off topic post, but as I said, this topic seems to have been hijacked by agenda-driven posters.





[edit on 16-11-2008 by mmariebored]

reply to post by mmariebored

This thread has been hijacked by religion-pushers... this topic seems to have been hijacked by agenda-driven posters...

NDEs beg the question: if there is life beyond physical death, what does it consist of? Many believe we therefore enter the realm of the spiritual.

There are few equally fundamental questions about life, seeing as all of us face physical death, and people with a whole variety of (sometimes contradictory) perspectives have been willing to present their evidence and listen to each other. Trying to muzzle those with faith goes against the grain of open discussion.

It has to be said you personally appear to have something of an anti-faith agenda.

I'm not sure if i believe it or not? All i know is that i died 3 times during heart surgery when i was a child and i clearly remember waking up and seeing everyone in the operating theatre. That raised a few eyebrow' that's for sure. They said i did not wake up! I said yes i did and then after i named them all, including someone who had asked the previous day if she could come in a watch & was refused, ( How that decision was overturned i don't know!) They just looked at me in total disbelief. Then the Surgeons and Doctors went into a huddle and started whispering. Shaking their heads they really thought i couldn't hear them. I was only 5!

Originally posted by pause4thought
It has to be said you personally appear to have something of an anti-faith agenda.

I have an anti-liar agenda, to be correct. I don't like to see people controlled by people posing as some higher-power authority, and this is what religions do. It has nothing to do with faith. I have faith things exist that I see evidence of but cannot explain yet, but I do not like to be told what it is by others who ALSO cannot explain it, with proof. If we both know something's there but we both cannot explain it with proof, why should I believe in your theory over mine? And all religions base themselves on theory.

There are few equally fundamental questions about life, seeing as all of us face physical death, and people with a whole variety of (sometimes contradictory) perspectives have been willing to present their evidence and listen to each other. Trying to muzzle those with faith goes against the grain of open discussion.

I'm not trying to muzzle anyone, only pointing out your aganda, as you pointed out mine. Incorrectly.

NDEs beg the question: if there is life beyond physical death, what does it consist of? Many believe we therefore enter the realm of the spiritual.

Of course many believe this. We're either taught this or we discover this question as we age and we're either taught what the afterlife(spirit rhelm, Heaven, other worlds, etc) consists of or we begin to imagine it on our own. Imagining these things on our own is allowing ourselves the freedom each and every human being ever born on this earth deserves. Trying to impose our own imaginings on someone else is to take way that freedom and stalls mankind's allover progress. Because in order to progress, we all have to work together as a team, exchanging ideas and respecting each other's views as prospects to the path toward truth. Religions, closed dogmas, stop our progression towards truth by saying they already know it, without the solid proof to back their theory. THAT is what I consider "closed-minded".

reply to post by mmariebored


I'm quite happy for you to explain your thoughts.

Trying to impose our own imaginings on someone else

People whose perspective differs from yours explain their thoughts & present their evidence, and you call it "imposing". Did someone perhaps tie you to your chair, shine a lamp in your face & say 'Sign here'? (Good - I sent him.)

only pointing out your agenda, as you pointed out mine. Incorrectly.

Hmmm. My perspective needs no pointing out - it's obvious. You weren't so much pointing it out as objecting to it. Yet further evidence is found in your last post:

Religions, closed dogmas, stop our progression towards truth

Couldn't be much clearer really. An anti-religion agenda. I called it correctly.

The fact my faith is based on a belief Christ rose from the dead after 3 days and that everyone has conscious existence after physical death means I wish to share some thoughts and present some evidence regarding NDEs. It's unfortunate if you find that offensive. I'd rather it give you hope.

Originally posted by pause4thought
A word of warning: even those who find this substance fascinating warn that it is extreme ('once every 6 months max', they said). One proponent that I read said they knew people who were left with permanent psychosis & are still in institutions because of it. (I don't have time to find the link now, but will try to add it later.)

Extreme, yes. Permanent psychosis - hmmm, not sure about that. Perhaps a permanent state of awareness of one's own crapola, if that can be called a psychosis.

Joking aside, it is true, that some people get their chains pulled and are shown stuff that makes them think they are pretty special. It's just a part of the shadow, as there is not much darker than someone who thinks they are some kind of 'light being'. The shaman call it 'claridad' and suggest a night alone in the jungle, tied to a tree, full of Ayahuasca, as a cure

However, one can experience fairly extreme terror on a journey and most people will experience their own death if they journey enough. If someone is close to the edge, I can imagine these things could push them over, although the Aya seems to know just how much each individual can take (which is a great deal more than we think we can IME)

As for once every six months, that's the first I heard of that. Generally, use of aya is self-policing, as one needs a considerable break between journeys to gather the courage to go again.

If I had the cahones, and easy access to the brew, I'd be journeying weekly.

Many shaman drink almost daily, so a rule of once every 6 months is a bit off the mark I think.

Having said all that, I second the call for caution. Aproach plant medicine with extreme humility and respect.

I believe it is the level of mind the individual has such as some individuals are attracted to the religious and feel propelled toward a supreme being as a god while others are not. Some even reach a level in which they "speak in tongues". It seems to be a level of conciousness prior to death which promotes hallicinations or dreams. Some individuals are not easily lead in these beliefs so the NDE does not happen.

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mmariebored

 

Religions, closed dogmas, stop our progression towards truth

Couldn't be much clearer really. An anti-religion agenda. I called it correctly.

You said my agenda was anti faith, actually.

The fact my faith is based on a belief Christ rose from the dead after 3 days and that everyone has conscious existence after physical death means I wish to share some thoughts and present some evidence regarding NDEs. It's unfortunate if you find that offensive. I'd rather it give you hope.

No. That gives me about as much hope as a letter to Santa does. I've yet to see evidence of either.

People whose perspective differs from yours explain their thoughts & present their evidence, and you call it "imposing".

Imposing because you believe you are the right one and are not open to anyone else's views, only expect everyone else to bend to your beliefs.

Did someone perhaps tie you to your chair, shine a lamp in your face & say 'Sign here'? (Good - I sent him.)

I knew you were freaky.

I'm quite happy for you to explain your thoughts.

If I explained my theories to you, you'd read them while thinking of ways to invoke Biblical meaning into each and every aspect, instead of trying to view from my perspective while reading, as a true "open-minded" person does.

Originally posted by mmariebored

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Although people may make claims I am religious I can assure You I am Not....

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Jesus Said,

"I am a Door to them That know Me, Knock on Me!"

That's from the religion of Christianity.
(pick a version, any version)

If you're not religious, why preach The Message?

Are you saying you're a hypocrite, one who guides people into one of the slaughterhouses of religion but will not go there yourself?
Because that is the only conclusion to reach when considering your two statements.


I apologize to the OP for the off topic post, but as I said, this topic seems to have been hijacked by agenda-driven posters.


[edit on 16-11-2008 by mmariebored]

Call me What you Like for You are powerless to change The Truth!

First find out about a person before you make personal attacks on them.

You know absolutely nothing at all about me and probably very little about yourself.

So I have to defend my own Integrity, by saying.......

If I have an anti Faith Agenda then come onto my thread and discus it their, but on this thread we are invited and I am only reporting on my Death experience. As a matter of fact I have had many writing to me directly supporting my views. I do Not force you to accept my thoughts but you must also accept that I can express my thoughts on this experience.

If you don't like what I say then Don't read my posts OK.

Get over yourself.

I don't Preach, I merely point out those things, that are being misquoted by Primates.

Life or The Knowledge of Consciousness, is Not a Religion, it is people such as the Pharisees that created a religion out of knowledge to try and hide the Knowledge, of the Consciousness and your true Origin, of being a half breed Alien!

Half Alien and half Primate!

The Roman Kingdom through the Roman Church of Primates did the same as the Pharisees, but I guess you are blind to this fact.

You have been totally Brainwashed by Primates, and can't see anything!

You can only wander aimlessly around in the dark, trying to convince yourself, and others that you are safe and in No danger.

See what happens in your future as it is a small mater to put you back into reality.

Man Know thy Self.

Take a good Long look at my Avatar picture, and tell me what is religious about a Geometric Drawing of a map, of the Underside of your body, called the Soul, which you are completely ignorant of????

What will you gain, if you convince the whole world, of your wisdom based on Double Logic in your DNA Structure, and Loose your Soul through Ignorance.

Start asking Questions about Your Self, and Learn about Yourself.

The Greatest Wealth a Person can Have, is The Knowledge of The Self!




[edit on 16-11-2008 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by hypnoticka

just because billions of people are religious it doesn't mean there is afterlife like you said its faith, sorry but faith is not evidence and i think everybody knows this

And lack of evidence does not mean there IS no "afterlife" or some kind of consciousness after physical death.

All lack of hard evidence proves is that there is a lack of hard evidence.

There IS some evidence of consciousness beyond physical death, testimony from those who have experienced it. It just isnt the evidence YOU want to consider.

Science does not tell us the "truth" any more than "religion" does. They are both limited in their ability to inform. Science is limited by technology. It always has been. Religion is limited by its interpreters. It always has been. Thousands of years ago, there was atomic theory and evolutionary theory. At that time, if they had the kind of science we do, "science" would have said exactly what you are now saying, "Rubbish, you have no proof."

However this lack of proof says more about the state of "science" than it did about the truth of atomic theory and evolutionary theory.

www.timelineindex.com...

Certainly Democritus was not the first to propose an atomic theory. His teacher Leucippus had proposed an atomic system, as had Anaxagoras of Clazomenae. In fact traces of an atomic theory go back further than this, perhaps to the Pythagorean notion of the regular solids playing a fundamental role in the makeup of the universe. However Democritus produced a much more elaborate and systematic view of the physical world than had any of his predecessors.

Fortunately, these "unscientific" minds were not bound by what we today call "science" or "the religion of the documentable and verifiable," that religion had not yet been invented yet. And these minds, a blend of the mystic and the scientific, the philosophic minds, laid the foundation for the poorer cousin of philosophy, "modern science."

Again, it is a pathetic version of a "scientist" who argues with a straight face that "lack of proof" proves anything. Or that "proof" proves anything. To clarify,

www.holycross.edu...&be_notes/E&BE_04_Sci_Meth&Philo.pdf

I. THE NATURE OF SCIENTIFIC PROOF
A. Is there proof in science?
1. In the sense that the word proof is used in mathematics and philosophy, nothing is ever proven in science. There is always some uncertainty about the actual value of results obtained from some experiment or their interpretation.

2. The more times an observation is repeated and the greater number of different observations and theories that it ties into and agrees with, the more confident we are about how well we actually understand something.

3. However, in the strictest sense, we never arrive at "proof"; we simply arrive at a very high degree of probability that we understand something. Thus, it is important that you shift your frame of reference from one of proof and certainty of knowledge and interpretation of facts to one that is PROBABILISTIC in nature, where our confidence in whether or not we understand something properly is not and never can be absolute. Thus, you are well advised to remove the word "proof" from your vocabulary as far as science is concerned.

Emphasis mine. These are some pretty basic, elementary scientific concepts. Which is why I get annoyed when pretenders to science come along with their religion of "proof."

Edit to add,

It occurred to me that the nice summary of "proof" might be discounted by the psuedoscientists in the thread because it is from a religious university. I was looking for a concise, easy to understand version of what is actually quite a long philosophic argument.

So here is a secular version;

en.wikipedia.org...

Utility of Scientific Evidence

Philosophers, such as Karl R. Popper, have provided influential theories of the scientific method within which scientific evidence plays a central role[7]. In summary, Popper provides that a scientist creatively develops a theory which may be falsified or verified by testing the theory against evidence or known facts. Popper’s theory presents an asymmetry in that evidence can prove a theory wrong, by establishing facts that are inconsistent with the theory. In contrast, evidence cannot prove a theory correct because other evidence, yet to be discovered, may exist that is inconsistent with the theory[8]. See falsificationism for more on this view of scientific evidence.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by Redbeard3261


Hmmmmm when you experience death please inform me of your findings.

What we believe about what might happen and what happens are entirely two different things.

Belief (Not Faith) Fantasy.... Dreams are Free

What happens when you die ..... The Truth

It is Dangerous to theorise about something you have not experienced of have forgotten.

For many experience death so many times you can't number them!

Others don't know anything because they are Not alive and are already Dead.

It is Written....

Quote:

Jesus said,

"He who has found the World has only found a Corpse and He who has found a Corpse is Superior to the World. "

What the hell do you think he meant?

Maybe something to do with what I have written about, I guess...

What do you think?

Why should I reject Christ's sayings if I do Not reject you!

If I reject you I have already rejected Christ.....

And This I can Not do but instead be wise and listen to all because there is only The One...

See if you are able to step outside of your existence in the All???

I guess you can't, so enjoy being part of The One!

You can never Not be part of The One but can only reject or accept The All....

If You reject the All, you Reject yourself, and that is the Greatest Self Deception of All!!!

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


I think matrix traveler that you have to read some books about Carl Jung and his theory of collective unconscienciousnes and archetypes.

Yes im interested in your fogure so you can send me some in this mail:

[email protected]

It's a specially created mail for this purpose

thanks

reply to post by REIKUKI


Thank you for your support and Yes I will read Carl Jung's work as I know of him but have Not studied his writing.

Thank you for the Email address and I will forward these to you, with an explanation.

I look forward to more of your comments on ATS.

Isn't the whole NDE thing an intellectual surgery for most atheists?? Specifically since most NDE's speak of a God.

reply to post by mmariebored

I have an anti-liar agenda, to be correct. I don't like to see people controlled by people posing as some higher-power authority

Isn't this what your doing now? Posing as a higher authority by saying that others are posing as higher authority. Its the big paradox some dont see.

If we both know something's there but we both cannot explain it with proof, why should I believe in your theory over mine?

Subjective proof is proof also, just for that 1 person. If a bunch of people share the same subjective proof, doesnt it make it objective?

Religions, closed dogmas, stop our progression towards truth by saying they already know it

What if there really is a religion that does know "it" and really is teaching the true path to experience God and be free to see things that are real, beyond the imagination???

Wouldnt that suck for all those who were bashing it and by doing so missing the point?

I think most people seek the truth about their existence, but if they ever do find out the truth, they may not like what they have found. Sometimes the truth can be hard and cold.

One question that most curious minds ask when we talk about our reality, is where do we come from and if there's a God, who created GOD. It's at this point that most people run out of ideas and just accept the theory that GOD is somehow the beginning.

I believe that our reality is probably a computer simulation, therefore the question about who created God can theoretically be answered. God like all other life forms is just an illusion and it's creator was probably also an illusion. We are all part of the same simulation, basically just simulations within simulations.

It's inevitable that someday, as our technology evolves we will reach the stage whereby we will create our own simulation that can physically mimic the physical laws of reality. It may not physically turn out exactly the same way, but it will no doubt be inhabited by life forms with artificial intelligence that will ponder the meaning of their life and ask the same questions we ask. Who are we, who created us and what is life?

By creating our own simulation of life we might even answer our own questions about life, reality and beyond. With a sufficiently powerful quantum computer, we might even be able to tap into these other reality simulations. Will we ever find out the truth, is it even possible.